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Old 03-11-2013, 04:35 AM   #3801
stevehnm
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It doesn't matter that "no one drives like that". What matters is that they drive the same in different cars. As we have seen with Consumer Reports, there is a tight grouping of vehicles that all get, with the admittedly easier Consumer Reports test, 35 mpg. All but one of those got very close to the same EPA ratings. There was bias error but not much random error. +/- 2 mpg is pretty close. The problem was that of the 13 cars, only 12 within 2 of the average. The other was 6 mpg off, so that with the other the mpg claimed would make it very difficult to get the EPA mpg. There are, BTW, only two types of error - bias error and random error.

So, 12 cars were rated at 30 mpg highway by the EPA test, and 35 mpg with the Consumer Reports test, within 2 mpg.

Those cars could easily get their EPA highway mpg, just as we know it's not that difficult to get 30 mpg in a CVT Impreza. (Well, those of us that have CVT Imprezas. Those that don't have one are just talking out their ____) That's all those other cars that get the same real world mpg as the CVT have to do.

That's not really a difficult concept to understand, so I don't get why there are people still arguing that the Impreza, rated at 36 but performing the same as the other cars in terms of real world mpg, is not off in its EPA estimate. Somebody did a comparison test with Fuelly, but only used 7 or 8 of each fill in the other cars so I'm not real confident in that.

It's easy to get 30 mpg by all 13 of those cars. All but 1 of the 13 then easily get their highway EPA rating. All but the Impreza.

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Last edited by stevehnm; 03-11-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:43 AM   #3802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepNMnky View Post
Does it matter that it's 91 octane?
No. I wish I could be 87 octane E0 gas, but I can't. My source for E0 (Fastrac) only sells E0 in its premium gas. Their 87 and 89 octane products are E10. So I pay more for my gas than I'd like to, since the Impreza doesn't need anything more than 87 octane.

The higher octane doesn't hurt anything. It's just not necessary in the Impreza, and is a waste of money. However, I get approximately 10% better fuel economy with the E0 gas, which makes up for the higher purchase price.

Last edited by sgoldste01; 03-11-2013 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:48 AM   #3803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
However, I get approximately 10% better fuel economy with the E0 gas, which makes up for the higher purchase price.
This 10% difference is exactly what the majority of modern vehicles should be seeing on the winter blend of fuel in the Northeast. I would love to try E0 but like I said it isn't anywhere near where we live. Summer blend should be here some time in April.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:59 AM   #3804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdrcr5 View Post
This 10% difference is exactly what the majority of modern vehicles should be seeing on the winter blend of fuel in the Northeast.
Agreed. E0 is good for 10%. And summer vs. winter blend is good for 10%. So I would expect the difference between winter blend E10 and summer blend E0 to be 20%.

And that, my friends, is the difference between 30 MPG highway vs. 36 MPG highway. Furthermore, I'll bet you a beer that when Subaru ran their EPA tests, they were using summer blend E0 gas. In warm weather. With the A/C off. On a windless day. And properly inflated tires. And so on, and so on.

FYI, I prefer unfiltered wheat beers, like Shock Top or Blue Moon.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:22 AM   #3805
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I find it amazing that we have to make so many excuses for this car not reaching the epa estimates. With previous cars I have owned I never was concerned with the fuel that I used, or having perfect tire inflation, or driving exactly as the epa test was done. I could always just start the car and drive which would result in very consistent fuel economy that did not sway more than 10% from the epa numbers. This car requires me to take everything into consideration in order even come close to the epa numbers.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:33 AM   #3806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post

Agreed. E0 is good for 10%. And summer vs. winter blend is good for 10%. So I would expect the difference between winter blend E10 and summer blend E0 to be 20%.

And that, my friends, is the difference between 30 MPG highway vs. 36 MPG highway. Furthermore, I'll bet you a beer that when Subaru ran their EPA tests, they were using summer blend E0 gas. In warm weather. With the A/C off. On a windless day. And properly inflated tires. And so on, and so on.

FYI, I prefer unfiltered wheat beers, like Shock Top or Blue Moon.
The epa testing calls for a special blend of fuel, e0 and 93 octane iirc and it is only produced for testing, it isn't available for purchase anywhere
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:34 AM   #3807
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I made a 60 mile trip yesterday, had it read 37 mpg on the dash. Cruise control at 60 mph, straight, long, relatively flat road.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:35 AM   #3808
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Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post
I find it amazing that we have to make so many excuses for this car not reaching the epa estimates. With previous cars I have owned I never was concerned with the fuel that I used, or having perfect tire inflation, or driving exactly as the epa test was done. I could always just start the car and drive which would result in very consistent fuel economy that did not sway more than 10% from the epa numbers. This car requires me to take everything into consideration in order even come close to the epa numbers.
It isn't just this car, it is many of the new cars from nearly all manufacturers
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:44 AM   #3809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post
I find it amazing that we have to make so many excuses for this car not reaching the epa estimates. With previous cars I have owned I never was concerned with the fuel that I used, or having perfect tire inflation, or driving exactly as the epa test was done. I could always just start the car and drive which would result in very consistent fuel economy that did not sway more than 10% from the epa numbers. This car requires me to take everything into consideration in order even come close to the epa numbers.
Agreed. But if you're going to try to achieve the EPA numbers (or at least come close), you need to closely mimic the EPA test's driving conditions.
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #3810
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Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post

It isn't just this car, it is many of the new cars from nearly all manufacturers
Well the one car I can vouch for is the new skyactive mazda 3. My friend owns one and is consistently getting 30+ mpg on his weekly 10 min. commute to work. So I would say that one is not included when you say "many of the new cars".
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #3811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post

The epa testing calls for a special blend of fuel, e0 and 93 octane iirc and it is only produced for testing, it isn't available for purchase anywhere
Found it
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...economy-page-2

93 octane or for pzev vehicles 91 octane "California blend"
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:55 AM   #3812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post

Well the one car I can vouch for is the new skyactive mazda 3. My friend owns one and is consistently getting 30+ mpg on his weekly 10 min. commute to work. So I would say that one is not included when you say "many of the new cars".
Isn't that car rated at 40?
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:02 AM   #3813
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post

Agreed. But if you're going to try to achieve the EPA numbers (or at least come close), you need to closely mimic the EPA test's driving conditions.
Yes with THIS car that is what you need to do. That is why I will not recommend the Impreza to others if fuel efficiency is important.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:09 AM   #3814
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Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post

Isn't that car rated at 40?
Yep but for city it's rated at 28 mpg. We have a very similar commute in our Impreza and only get 20-22 mpg. So he is able to exceed the epa estimates in the mazda 3 and we are 25% under in our Impreza.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:17 AM   #3815
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Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post

Found it
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...economy-page-2

93 octane or for pzev vehicles 91 octane "California blend"
Does "California blend" mean that there is 0 ethanol? I can't imagine they would use pure gas when e10 is the new industry standard.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:23 AM   #3816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post
Yep but for city it's rated at 28 mpg. We have a very similar commute in our Impreza and only get 20-22 mpg. So he is able to exceed the epa estimates in the mazda 3 and we are 25% under in our Impreza.

its also fwd
He could probably get higher mpg in your car

Also everyone should check their tire pressure irrespective of what car they drive, I would greatly appreciate it as would the environment.

check tire pressure weekly or every 2 weeks.
Buy a bike pump or an inflator from walmart. pressure varies based on temp
I check oil level, coolant level, brake fluid, and tire pressure weekly.
You should also check around the engine area to make sure everything looks A OK. lets all do our part

Joes Racing 32307 (0-60) PSI Tire Pressure Gauge : Amazon.com : AutomotiveJoes Racing 32307 (0-60) PSI Tire Pressure Gauge : Amazon.com : Automotive
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:24 AM   #3817
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Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post
Does "California blend" mean that there is 0 ethanol? I can't imagine they would use pure gas when e10 is the new industry standard.
no idea on that. it is very difficult to find information on fuel blends they use for testing. I'm guessing not though
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:42 AM   #3818
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Originally Posted by aeoporta View Post

its also fwd
He could probably get higher mpg in your car

Also everyone should check their tire pressure irrespective of what car they drive, I would greatly appreciate it as would the environment.

check tire pressure weekly or every 2 weeks.
Buy a bike pump or an inflator from walmart. pressure varies based on temp
I check oil level, coolant level, brake fluid, and tire pressure weekly.
You should also check around the engine area to make sure everything looks A OK. lets all do our part

Video Link: http://www.amazon.com/Joes-Racing-32307-Pressure-Gauge/dp/B00404WDUC/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363011657&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=jores+tire+gauge
I give my tires a swift kick to check my tire pressure. Tire pressures fluctuate day to day depending on the temperature so it's impossible to always have the ideal tire pressure.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:40 PM   #3819
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Originally Posted by 2012ISport View Post

I give my tires a swift kick to check my tire pressure. Tire pressures fluctuate day to day depending on the temperature so it's impossible to always have the ideal tire pressure.
SMDH!!! Hope that works out for ya! That's ok cause people that work in the tire industry LOVE people like you. In fact, they need people like you.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:11 PM   #3820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
Agreed. E0 is good for 10%. And summer vs. winter blend is good for 10%. So I would expect the difference between winter blend E10 and summer blend E0 to be 20%.

And that, my friends, is the difference between 30 MPG highway vs. 36 MPG highway. Furthermore, I'll bet you a beer that when Subaru ran their EPA tests, they were using summer blend E0 gas. In warm weather. With the A/C off. On a windless day. And properly inflated tires. And so on, and so on.
Why on earth would the EPA tests be ran on E0 gas when it is not readily available to majority of consumers. I'm pretty the manufacturer running the test would use the recommended fuel for the car in E10 as it's the standard. If they ran it using E0 this would be a perfect example of a manufacturer influencing testing methods to get higher numbers. I'm not one saying to claim suit here, but that would be grounds for inflated numbers.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:29 PM   #3821
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Originally Posted by SleepNMnky View Post
Why on earth would the EPA tests be ran on E0 gas when it is not readily available to majority of consumers. I'm pretty the manufacturer running the test would use the recommended fuel for the car in E10 as it's the standard. If they ran it using E0 this would be a perfect example of a manufacturer influencing testing methods to get higher numbers. I'm not one saying to claim suit here, but that would be grounds for inflated numbers.
they have to test the vehicles based upon the EPA's procedure, so i would assume they use e0.

i have stated it numerous times, the testing procedure is flawed, it really hasn't been updated since when it was introduced, just minor changes but overall the procedure looks like it is the same as it was 35+ years ago.

Quote:
EPA tests are designed to reflect "typical" driving conditions and driver behavior, but several factors can affect MPG significantly:

How & Where You Drive
Vehicle Condition & Maintenance
Fuel Variations
Vehicle Variations
Engine Break-In
i don't know about you, but i can't get the fuel they use (i can get e0 87 however) and i sure as hell don't accelerate at 3.3mph/sec
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:48 PM   #3822
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no idea on that. it is very difficult to find information on fuel blends they use for testing. I'm guessing not though
Here you say you are unsure of the fuel blend they use and now you are saying they use e0. Where does it state the epa uses e0?
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:51 PM   #3823
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Default Class Action?

I know it's hard to hear, but Subaru used MPG Fraud on the Impreza for one reason, to sell more cars.

Below is a list from Consumer Reports best economy cars for 2013 in Wagons and Hatchbacks(clickhere)

The last 4 on the list either matched or were below the EPA estimate.
3 of those 4 have been or are now in class action lawsuits.
Hyndai/kia last year reduced their EPA from 40 to 37, and is issuing rebates based on a ClassAction (clickhere).
Ford C-max is currently in a Class Action (clickhere).

Table taken from CR's best milage Wagons.(clickhere)
CR real world vs EPA (highway values only)
Sorted by amount over EPA estimate.
CR/EPA
49/41 +8 Jetta SprtWgnTDI(MT Diesel)
47/40 +7 Toyota Prius V Three
36/29 +7 Toyota Matrix S (2.4)
36/31 +5 Toyota Matrix 1.8L
33/28 +5 Kia Soul Plus
37/34 +3 Mini Cooper Clubman
33/30 +3 Nissan Cube 1.8 S
39/37 +2 Ford Focus SEL xx
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
37/37 +0 Hyundai Elantra GT
36/36 +0 Kia Forte EX
33/36 -3 Subaru Imp Spt Premium
38/47 -9 Ford C-MAX Hybrid SE

=============================================
I might also add all other Subaru's CR test beat EPA.
37/30 +7 Subaru BRZ
29/25 +4 Subaru Legacy 3.6R LTD
35/32 +3 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Prem
32/30 +2 Subaru Outback
26/24 +2 Subaru Forester 2.5 XT ltd
23/21 +2 Subaru Tribeca LTD 3.6L
28/27 +1 Subaru Forester 2.5X Prem
34/33 +1 Subaru Crosstrek XV
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:09 PM   #3824
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I hope you guys complaining to Subaru force them (or EPA?) to hand out a gas stipend to accomodate for the 1mpg off from EPA estimates.

My boss has a 2011 hyundai that this happened to and says whenever he goes to dealer they reimburse him the amount owed. So in one year he was able to claim around $100 or so.

I achieve the EPA estimates but if I can get gas money on top of that for the life of the car, Im in. lol

Keep fighting the good fight lol
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:18 PM   #3825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrecat View Post
I know it's hard to hear, but Subaru used MPG Fraud on the Impreza for one reason, to sell more cars.

Below is a list from Consumer Reports best economy cars for 2013 in Wagons and Hatchbacks(clickhere)

The last 4 on the list either matched or were below the EPA estimate.
3 of those 4 have been or are now in class action lawsuits.
Hyndai/kia last year reduced their EPA from 40 to 37, and is issuing rebates based on a ClassAction (clickhere).
Ford C-max is currently in a Class Action (clickhere).

Table taken from CR's best milage Wagons.(clickhere)
CR real world vs EPA (highway values only)
Sorted by amount over EPA estimate.
CR/EPA
49/41 +8 Jetta SprtWgnTDI(MT Diesel)
47/40 +7 Toyota Prius V Three
36/29 +7 Toyota Matrix S (2.4)
36/31 +5 Toyota Matrix 1.8L
33/28 +5 Kia Soul Plus
37/34 +3 Mini Cooper Clubman
33/30 +3 Nissan Cube 1.8 S
39/37 +2 Ford Focus SEL xx
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
37/37 +0 Hyundai Elantra GT
36/36 +0 Kia Forte EX
33/36 -3 Subaru Imp Spt Premium
38/47 -9 Ford C-MAX Hybrid SE

=============================================
I might also add all other Subaru's CR test beat EPA.
37/30 +7 Subaru BRZ
29/25 +4 Subaru Legacy 3.6R LTD
35/32 +3 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Prem
32/30 +2 Subaru Outback
26/24 +2 Subaru Forester 2.5 XT ltd
23/21 +2 Subaru Tribeca LTD 3.6L
28/27 +1 Subaru Forester 2.5X Prem
34/33 +1 Subaru Crosstrek XV
Consumer Reports has a list of other cars that tested differently in EPA and consumer reports tests here.

Personally, I don't think a small difference in the test results is a big deal since the EPA and CR tests are different and different cars have different mpg sweet spots. That is, you would expect some cars to do better on the EPA test than on the CR test and vice-versa. A 10mpg difference (as with the Ford C-Max) is pretty alarming though.
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