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Old 07-18-2012, 12:54 PM   #1501
nubsub
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agree with everyone's comments. my 2-3mpg estimate was only rough and cannot be grounded in real numbers unless i were to do an exact tank with and without AC. but what i was referring to is likely tilted higher since a lot of my AC miles are in town. i still try to use the windows down sometimes, but at other times, i have it blasting in stop and go and that kills my mileage.

on highway trips, i've played a little and i would agree that the difference is probably significantly less just cruising at highway speeds.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:34 PM   #1502
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And Mythbusters proved that its more efficient to run the A/C at highway speeds vs having the windows down.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:33 PM   #1503
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Originally Posted by Angelus911 View Post
And Mythbusters proved that its more efficient to run the A/C at highway speeds vs having the windows down.
That is only one test though. I've had cars that could barely make it up some hills with the AC on, those took a huge hit for MPG...
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:46 PM   #1504
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2012 Impreza 5dr, 5sp, Premium. Roof rack w/bike holders, sunroof w/wind deflector, hatch spoiler, mud flaps, hood protector. 4494 miles. AVG MPG-28.2. AVG MPH-50. Live in the mountains in SW NC. All mountain miles including going up our .6 mi. long gravel & curved drive in 1st gear.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:00 PM   #1505
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My Fiancee got 37 mpg on her 56 mile drive home from work yesterday.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:26 PM   #1506
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2012 Impreza Sport Premium 5-door with manual tranny. Started 250 mile road trip with 950 miles on odometer, so engine just crossed the 1000-mile break-in threshold. Three adults in car (including me), and luggage. 95*F temps, with A/C running the entire time. All highway miles at 68 mph. 34.5 mpg as calculated by Fuelly (trip computer claimed 36 mpg).
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:42 PM   #1507
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'12 CVT impreza with 6500 miles, I have been averaging 30-31 mpg going to work and back since I bought it, my trip is 35 min and some
Red lights with half interstate. This past week I had to do some business traveling for work, so it was a good opportunity to test it out. Trip was 515 miles long from Hickory NC to ATL GA went through the mountains of WNC with average traveling speed of 55mph, we stayed on mostly by pass type roads just a few miles on the interstate. Including the ~20 miles of traffic in GA I averaged 34mpg(fuel comp) for the trip. So I can say more like 33 actually mpg. We ran the a/c nonstop the whole trip and I can say the 36mpg would have been easy to achieve with no a/c on and flatter more rural country. But 2-3mpg is not something I'm going to fret over, I came from a 4x4 crew cab V8 truck. This thing seems to run on air to me lol.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:52 PM   #1508
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2012 Impreza Sport Limited.

I have just over 1100 miles on the car and am disappointed in the MPG's so far... I do 100% city driving (average about 20 mph or less) in 90-100 degree, high humidity with the A/C on at all times. My last 3 fill ups have been 19, 20, 20.3 mpg.

My fiancÚ drives a 2012 Outback Limited and has about 9000 miles on her car (we got them at the same time). She does much more hwy driving and has averaged about 27-28 mpg.

Ughhh.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:57 PM   #1509
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2k miles on my Sport and 21.8
is the best around town only with no A/C. I have gotten as low as 18, My 10 Outback with 20k on her gets 23 around town. I'm not sure how Subaru came up with 27, Down hill and coasting I guess.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:07 PM   #1510
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City driving is brutal on MPGs. 100% city driving is the best scenario for cars like the Prius.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:19 PM   #1511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgh88 View Post
2k miles on my Sport and 21.8
is the best around town only with no A/C. I have gotten as low as 18, My 10 Outback with 20k on her gets 23 around town. I'm not sure how Subaru came up with 27, Down hill and coasting I guess.
Maybe they skipped counting the killer first 3 miles of gas guzzling warmup?
Or rolled through a bunch of those stop signs that are part of the EPA City profile?
Or found a "city" that was heavy hit by the recession, and didn't have any traffic, so they could maintain a free flowing 35-40 mpg.

We have about 3000 miles on our CVT hatch. 20-21mpg(calculated) is a GOOD tank for my wife's mostly errands driving with a couple mile commute and a bit of short freeway hops.

I would be pleasantly shocked and be very happy to get within 20% of the "City" rating.

Good news is the car gets amazing mileage on longer trips, at moderate speeds, with summer gas, and no AC, and well.... its pretty picky about the conditions....

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Old 07-18-2012, 10:56 PM   #1512
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Decided to try out back road driving tonight, 78 miles on the tank, average according to the computer of 46mph (3 miles were in town, and i rolled through a few towns, otherwise my real speed average was more like 62) and the computer says 35.1mpg for the trip! Not too shabby and right where i would expect it to be for the 5sp
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:30 AM   #1513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
2012 Impreza Sport Premium 5-door with manual tranny. Started 250 mile road trip with 950 miles on odometer, so engine just crossed the 1000-mile break-in threshold. Three adults in car (including me), and luggage. 95*F temps, with A/C running the entire time. All highway miles at 68 mph. 34.5 mpg as calculated by Fuelly (trip computer claimed 36 mpg).
What's interesting to me is how different my fuel economy was on the return trip. Same number of people/luggage in car, driving on the same road (in the reverse direction), with the same usage of A/C, and driving the same speed with cruise control. Got 34.5 mpg (calculated) one way, but only got 30.5 mpg (calculated) driving in the reverse direction.

Variables to consider:
  • I guess it's possible that driving from Rochester toward Albany is slightly more down-hill than driving from Albany toward Rochester.
  • I guess it's possible that the quality of the Hess gas I bought before my return trip wasn't as good as the BJs gas I normally buy when I'm at home.
  • I guess it's possible that the wind was blowing against me on the way home (or was blowing with me on the first leg of the road trip), but I couldn't tell this while I was driving.

A difference of 4 MPGs is pretty significant, for a trip that was largely the same in both directions. It would be interesting to understand the cause(s) of this difference.
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:03 AM   #1514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
What's interesting to me is how different my fuel economy was on the return trip. Same number of people/luggage in car, driving on the same road (in the reverse direction), with the same usage of A/C, and driving the same speed with cruise control. Got 34.5 mpg (calculated) one way, but only got 30.5 mpg (calculated) driving in the reverse direction.

Variables to consider:
  • I guess it's possible that driving from Rochester toward Albany is slightly more down-hill than driving from Albany toward Rochester.
  • I guess it's possible that the quality of the Hess gas I bought before my return trip wasn't as good as the BJs gas I normally buy when I'm at home.
  • I guess it's possible that the wind was blowing against me on the way home (or was blowing with me on the first leg of the road trip), but I couldn't tell this while I was driving.

A difference of 4 MPGs is pretty significant, for a trip that was largely the same in both directions. It would be interesting to understand the cause(s) of this difference.
Have you considered that by driving to Albany, my home turf, your car might have decided it liked Albany better than Rochester?

Cars have feelings too.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:01 AM   #1515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
What's interesting to me is how different my fuel economy was on the return trip. Same number of people/luggage in car, driving on the same road (in the reverse direction), with the same usage of A/C, and driving the same speed with cruise control. Got 34.5 mpg (calculated) one way, but only got 30.5 mpg (calculated) driving in the reverse direction.

Variables to consider:
  • I guess it's possible that driving from Rochester toward Albany is slightly more down-hill than driving from Albany toward Rochester.
  • I guess it's possible that the quality of the Hess gas I bought before my return trip wasn't as good as the BJs gas I normally buy when I'm at home.
  • I guess it's possible that the wind was blowing against me on the way home (or was blowing with me on the first leg of the road trip), but I couldn't tell this while I was driving.

A difference of 4 MPGs is pretty significant, for a trip that was largely the same in both directions. It would be interesting to understand the cause(s) of this difference.
OK, I'm geeky enough to bite on this one.
Background - let's use some raw numbers here...
Mileage each way: 226
Gallons used Rochester to Albany: 6.55
Gallons used Albany to Rochester: 7.41
Difference in gallons used: 0.86.

Let's look at your points:
1- ELEVATION CHANGE
Rochester elevation: 505 ft
Albany elevation: 0 - 324 ft, lets split the difference and say 160 ft
- So, downhill 345 feet in one direction and uphill 345 feet in the other direction, a difference in elevation of 690 feet between trips.
- Could the car use 0.86 gallons of extra gas for a difference in elevation of 690 feet? Maybe. It sure could account for a big chunk of the difference.

2- DIFFERENCE IN GAS QUALITY BETWEEN FILLUPS
possible effect, no way to tell.

3- WIND DIRECTION DIFFERENCES
Unknown, but the prevailing winds are west to east.

4- DIFFERENCES IN GAS PUMP CLICK-OFFS
Assuming you didn't top off when filling up, one gas pump could have clicked off when the tank was, say, 0.3 gallons more full vs. the other pump. That alone could account for a third of the difference in measured fuel usage.

SUMMARY
Your Rochester-to-Albany trip was downhill and most likely with a tail wind AND the fuel pump at the end of this leg could have fueled up the tank higher. This could all easily account for a difference in fuel usage of 0.86 gallons.

Comparing MPG usage over short durations, like a half tank, or even a full tank, can create wide variances. Small differences in fuel usage can create big differences in MPG calculated. Even on a normal fillup, say 12 gallons, just topping off by adding 0.3 gallons will drop your calculated MPG by 0.5 gallons.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:19 PM   #1516
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^^Thanks for taking the time to think this through so thoroughly. It goes to show how many variables play into the MPG equation.

I would hope that, on average, these variables wouldn't all conspire against me in a negative direction (and I wouldn't expect them to conspire on my behalf in a positive direction, either). What are the chances of going mostly uphill on a trip AND getting bad gas AND driving into the wind AND filling with a generous gas pump?

I know it's possible for this to happen, and I'm sure it does from time to time, but on average I would expect these kinds of factors to generally cancel each other out.

It's interesting to think about, though, and I appreciate the time you spent doing so.

FWIW, here's my Fuelly data:

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sgoldste01/impreza

Last edited by sgoldste01; 07-19-2012 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 03:54 PM   #1517
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since we are all tossing out wild theories as facts anyway......

In my experience, elevation gain for a round trip is a relatively small hit.
Of course if you just measure the downhill or uphill, you can toss out amazing stats of 70mpg or 11mpg respectively. I find IF you drive VERY carefully, going over a few 3000 foot or so mountain passes neutralizes out, so I doubt 650 feet over a couple of hundred miles is very significant.

Now wind resistance..... I am starting to think that is more significant than I would ever have imagined on this sleek looking car.
I have been driving a square box, pushing aside a LOT of air since 2003, with a Honda Element, and so am VERY aware of air resistance situations and trying to minimize them....or putting up with them.
I am starting to notice that drafting, either purposefully or going with the flow of fast moving moderate to heavy traffic makes more of a difference in the Impreza for mpg difference than in my Element. Who would have figured? Its a tough one to nail down with scientific exact data... But hey, everyone here is taking vast liberties with the scientific process and proving their hypothesis.

Note also the fairly significant difference in mileage rating for the Impreza XV, with the main difference being just a couple inches more ground clearance affecting wind resistance. That seems like another indicator of the car's sensitivity to plowing through air molecules.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:15 PM   #1518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom52 View Post
I find IF you drive VERY carefully, going over a few 3000 foot or so mountain passes neutralizes out, so I doubt 650 feet over a couple of hundred miles is very significant.

...


Note also the fairly significant difference in mileage rating for the Impreza XV, with the main difference being just a couple inches more ground clearance affecting wind resistance. That seems like another indicator of the car's sensitivity to plowing through air molecules.
My primary challenge to what you say about driving uphill vs downhill is from what I observe while watching my ECO meter. It takes a very small uphill grade to bring the needle from above or on the center (average) line of the meter to below the line. As you know, whenever the ECO meter is below the center line, your average MPGs are falling. The trip from Albany to Rochester may be a very slight incline, but it's an incline just the same, and it doesn't take much to bring the ECO meter below the center line.

By the way, let me say here that I think every car that has the ability to calculate its average fuel economy should come with an ECO meter. When I first bought the Impreza, I thought the ECO meter was a waste of dashboard space. But it didn't take long for me to recognize that the ECO meter is not only useful, but it's also fun. It becomes a game as you try to keep the needle above the center line; the better your fuel economy, the harder this game becomes.

I haven't looked up the XV's stats. How much of a fuel economy hit does that higher ground clearance cause? Is ground clearance really the only difference between the XV and the Impreza? How about gearing? Bigger/heavier wheels and tires? Additional body bling that makes the XV look tough but also reduces aerodynamics?
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:25 PM   #1519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom52 View Post
since we are all tossing out wild theories as facts anyway......

In my experience, elevation gain for a round trip is a relatively small hit.
Of course if you just measure the downhill or uphill, you can toss out amazing stats of 70mpg or 11mpg respectively. I find IF you drive VERY carefully, going over a few 3000 foot or so mountain passes neutralizes out, so I doubt 650 feet over a couple of hundred miles is very significant.

Now wind resistance..... I am starting to think that is more significant than I would ever have imagined on this sleek looking car.
I have been driving a square box, pushing aside a LOT of air since 2003, with a Honda Element, and so am VERY aware of air resistance situations and trying to minimize them....or putting up with them.
I am starting to notice that drafting, either purposefully or going with the flow of fast moving moderate to heavy traffic makes more of a difference in the Impreza for mpg difference than in my Element. Who would have figured? Its a tough one to nail down with scientific exact data... But hey, everyone here is taking vast liberties with the scientific process and proving their hypothesis.

Note also the fairly significant difference in mileage rating for the Impreza XV, with the main difference being just a couple inches more ground clearance affecting wind resistance. That seems like another indicator of the car's sensitivity to plowing through air molecules.
It is not that much taller, but it is heavier and uses the same engine, so expect the XV not to do as well as the Impreza MPG wise, no matter what the sticker tells you -- any deficiencies in the Impreza will be more obvious with the XV.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:02 PM   #1520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
I haven't looked up the XV's stats. How much of a fuel economy hit does that higher ground clearance cause? Is ground clearance really the only difference between the XV and the Impreza? How about gearing? Bigger/heavier wheels and tires? Additional body bling that makes the XV look tough but also reduces aerodynamics?
XV is rated 33mpg highway, 25 city, drag coefficient is .35 as opposed to .33 on the Impreza 5 door. I'd suspect some suspension differences but not sure.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:16 PM   #1521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom52 View Post
since we are all tossing out wild theories as facts anyway......

But hey, everyone here is taking vast liberties with the scientific process and proving their hypothesis.
It's pretty well understood here that when we try to analyze a situation, we have imperfect data and imperfect test conditions and incomplete information. We do the best we can and just try to help. It is not necessary to finish off every post saying "my analysis may be flawed and is not scientific." That's a given, and just plain wordy.

Soooo, no need to get snippy. It's not helpful.

That said, your personal experience with driving in hilly conditions is helpful. I'm not ready to agree with you that hills do not significantly effect MPG, but I'm open to convincing with some hard, albeit unscientific data. I can pin my ECO meter to the left with a 5 foot incline. Sure, the meter is all the way to the right on the downslope, but I don't think that that's a wash overall.

Wind resistance: I think you'll find lots of agreement that wind is a significant factor.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:55 PM   #1522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwi53092 View Post
It's pretty well understood here that when we try to analyze a situation, we have imperfect data and imperfect test conditions and incomplete information. We do the best we can and just try to help. It is not necessary to finish off every post saying "my analysis may be flawed and is not scientific." That's a given, and just plain wordy.

Soooo, no need to get snippy. It's not helpful.

That said, your personal experience with driving in hilly conditions is helpful. I'm not ready to agree with you that hills do not significantly effect MPG, but I'm open to convincing with some hard, albeit unscientific data. I can pin my ECO meter to the left with a 5 foot incline. Sure, the meter is all the way to the right on the downslope, but I don't think that that's a wash overall.

Wind resistance: I think you'll find lots of agreement that wind is a significant factor.
Just basing my disclaimers on how I have been ripped apart for not being sufficient in my observations in previous posts in this forum. Seems there is a fair amount of inconsistency on what is required to state an observation here.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:51 PM   #1523
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Just basing my disclaimers on how I have been ripped apart for not being sufficient in my observations in previous posts in this forum. Seems there is a fair amount of inconsistency on what is required to state an observation here.
All true, unfortunately.
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:09 PM   #1524
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Quote:
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What's interesting to me is how different my fuel economy was on the return trip.
Add 5 mph (headwind or car speed) subtract 3 mpg.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:04 PM   #1525
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I play a video game every day to and from work: I use a foot controller to make a little needle stay on the plus side of neutral.

I'm finally seeing the mileage I'd hoped for from my Impreza Limited CVT 5-door. After the first month of break-in (April), a month of travel where my teenage son drove the car (May) and out of work for medical reasons (June) followed by trips in Boston rush-hour traffic, I have passed 5000 miles and am finally back to my regular 32 mile commute of gentle hills on 60% highway and the rest on rural back roads, only a few lights. I'm about 160 miles into my current tank with 39.3 estimated mpg showing.

So, my game. In trying to max out my mileage I've changed my driving habits, driving 55-65 mostly in the right lane instead of the 65-75 I used to drive. More importantly, I've developed a light touch on the gas, letting my speed drop a bit uphill and picking it up again on the downs. I allow a lot more slack space between me and the guy in front of me, avoiding both gas and brakes to let the distance change. This part does not take anything away from my trip times, it all balances out, and overall my commute is only 3-5 minutes longer than it was in my Altima 2.5 (26-27 mpg). The Game has made my commute much more relaxing and enjoyable since I'm not trying to beat everyone else home, or my own best time.

I agree with what has been shared here, first few miles of warm-up guzzles gas, A/C is a 1-2 mpg hit (at speed I mostly drive with the roof open and the windows 1/4 cracked), stop-and-go driving is the enemy. But even in traffic I've found the hit can be minimized with slow acceleration that doesn't "bury" the needle in the negative: if I only let it go half way my average does not drop as fast, and I'm still quick enough not to induce road rage in the guy behind me.

So, stats: finally got accumulated mileage onto Fuelly, http://www.fuelly.com/driver/cahicag...eza?fu=2901245
I twice checked my odometer mileage against Google Maps, and both times found I am 5% low. All my Fuelly mileage is odometer X 1.05 to make it as "real" as I can make it. With that correction, my trip computer is actually pretty close, less than 1 mpg on the high side. As mentioned, my break-in seems to have been ~5k miles, though it could just be warm weather and summer gas.

My dealer was all about touting the great gas mileage of the Impreza, assuring me I'd probably see BETTER than the 36 mpg est highway, and even showed me a cell phone picture of a 40.2 avg mpg supposedly after a trip from Boston to Springfield, MA (uphill on the mass pike). Now at least I believe it can be done. Like others have said here, anyone can hit 40-50 mpg coasting down a hill. What matters is your average over time, and with my last three fillups yielding 34.4, 37.3 and 35.3 mpg, I have nothing to complain about.
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