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Old 08-15-2012, 04:58 PM   #1651
myrt1987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pxpaulx View Post
If myrt's commute is 70 miles a day at 38mpg (approximate calculated...if he is calculating right!) and $3.80/gallon, if he only got 32mpg it would cost him an additional $340/year. I'll drive faster if you want to pay me that much money, promise!

Myrt, is your commute 70 miles 1 way? 3.5 hours seems like a lot of time for just 70 miles...if it is 140 total double the numbers above!

Also Myrt, you've gotta start backing those numbers up with a fuelly page so we can all be jealous - these are the internets afterall - proof or it didn't happen!
LOL i try to maintain speed as much as possible i promise.

70 miles one way, 3.5 hours per day meaning round trip, prob should have clarified.

You want proof, Ill give you proof.

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Old 08-15-2012, 06:01 PM   #1652
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iffy but believable LOL. congrats
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:04 PM   #1653
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Very nice! Truthfully the only reason I doubt the trip computer in general is because for me it has averaged 2.4mpg higher then actual between my first and second oil changes. My best tank on the gauge read 35.7 and turned into 32.1 calculated (and the tank before and after weren't wildly high to compensate).
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:16 PM   #1654
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My best on the gauge was 36, which calculated out to 34.5.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #1655
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The accelerator peddle seems very front-loaded
I agree with that a lot! Drives me crazy.

It's fly-by-wire so a reflash with a different throttle map could improve that. The throttle mapping is my biggest complaint about the car.

Here's my observations after 10,000 miles:

From a dead stop, when I roll into the throttle gently, the acceleration is so slow that the people behind me start honking. If I roll just 1% or so more throttle the car leaps ahead with the possibility of rear-ending the car in front of me. So I have to immediately back off to zero throttle.

Once there is sufficient room in front of me to not slam into the car in front, I gently roll on some more throttle. I get to a point where it feels like a good compromise between economy and acceleration and things go fine up to about 40 mph, then suddenly all acceleration stops and the car sticks at like 42 mph.

Since I need to get to 60 on this one particular street I drive frequently I need to roll on more throttle to accelerate some more. At that point, unless I apply lots of throttle, acceleration is very poor and sluggish.

When I get to my desired 60 mph I have to back off the throttle again to keep from accelerating more. The whole map feels very non-linear and stair-steppy.

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Old 08-15-2012, 11:49 PM   #1656
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Totally agree with the graphics! The only way it seems you can manage the first graph throttle response is to mash it down and rev up over 4k (not my style...usually) ...even then you'll have the fall off above 40mph.
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:44 AM   #1657
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LOL i try to maintain speed as much as possible i promise.
OK, I'll ask again (to the right person this time): If you maintain speed on hills, how is what you're doing different from what the cruise control would do?

Additional questions:
  • Is the terrain on your typical daily commute very flat, or do you have hills to deal with?
  • What kind of gas do you use?
  • Do you draft behind trucks or do other hypermiling tricks like that?

I'm not saying I don't believe what you've managed to accomplish. I just think you're catching us all by surprise because it's so far above and beyond what people are showing on Fuelly, and beyond what we're seeing in our own cars. If you do keep records, I'd love to see your data entered into Fuelly. And if not, I'd love to see you start using Fuelly from this point forward, and then share your data with us. Here's mine:

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sgoldste01/impreza
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:47 AM   #1658
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Originally Posted by pxpaulx View Post
Totally agree with the graphics! The only way it seems you can manage the first graph throttle response is to mash it down and rev up over 4k (not my style...usually) ...even then you'll have the fall off above 40mph.
I'm assuming this is a CVT-specific behavior. I don't experience this with my 5MT.
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:32 AM   #1659
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^ you are correct!
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:00 AM   #1660
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Originally Posted by ans2k View Post
^correct. You would either need a automotive gps or a hand held gps. hand helds are more accurate but i took a long road trip enough to calculate it. you could measure the actual distance with the gps, divide by the miles recorded on odometer and then that would be the percent difference. you could take that percentage, go back into fuelly and go to edit trips. then, multiply every one of your mile trip and that should do it.
OK, so I did this with my TomTom. Using data from my short trip to work this AM, I determined that my Impreza's odometer is off by 2.835% (car's odometer said 19.4 miles, TomTom said 19.95 miles). I won't update my Fuelly data until I confirm this over greater distances, but I'm confident it's pretty close.

TomTom car GPS units (at least all the models I've owned) don't provide the ability to capture trip distance traveled out of the box (it will tell you how far you have to go, but it won't tell you how far you have already gone). However, one reason I'm loyal to TomTom is because of the ability to add 3rd party software to the unit. In this case, a freeware product called Tripmaster is what gave my TomTom the ability to report trip distances:

http://www.webazar.org/tomtom/tripmaster.php?lang=uk

I'm not very happy that my car's odometer is off by almost 3% (even if it is off to my advantage). I'd prefer accuracy. I know it's common for cars to report slower speeds on the speedometer (probably in the name of safety--"Let's tell him he's doing 60 MPH when he's really only doing 57!"). But I thought the odometers were generally accurate.

I'm guessing it all averages out over time, though. As my tires wear out and the diameter gets smaller, the error should get smaller too, right?
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:50 AM   #1661
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Originally Posted by ans2k View Post
iffy but believable LOL. congrats
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pxpaulx View Post
Very nice! Truthfully the only reason I doubt the trip computer in general is because for me it has averaged 2.4mpg higher then actual between my first and second oil changes. My best tank on the gauge read 35.7 and turned into 32.1 calculated (and the tank before and after weren't wildly high to compensate).
Yeah same here. When I calculate it its ususally 1.5 - 2.5 lower then the readout. But I think that even dividing mileage over gas pump readout is a little faulty because its debatable whether it fills to the same amount everytime. But ive never calculated higher numbers then the mpg readout. So 40.2 might be a little optimistic. (Still nice to see )

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
OK, I'll ask again (to the right person this time): If you maintain speed on hills, how is what you're doing different from what the cruise control would do?



Additional questions:
  • Is the terrain on your typical daily commute very flat, or do you have hills to deal with?
  • What kind of gas do you use?
  • Do you draft behind trucks or do other hypermiling tricks like that?
I'm not saying I don't believe what you've managed to accomplish. I just think you're catching us all by surprise because it's so far above and beyond what people are showing on Fuelly, and beyond what we're seeing in our own cars. If you do keep records, I'd love to see your data entered into Fuelly. And if not, I'd love to see you start using Fuelly from this point forward, and then share your data with us. Here's mine:

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/sgoldste01/impreza
I try not to be as... dramatic as cruise control. Youre driving up a hill on cruise control, youre speed decreases and suddenly youre rpms skyrocket to accelerate uphill to keep the set speed. But with my foot on the pedal I can soften the blow by accelerating slightly before the hill, or keeping rpms constant and losing some speed uphill but going downhill i can accelerate or ease off gas watching mpg reach 99.9.

I have some hills to deal with, nothing too steep.

I use whatever regular gas comes out of citgo pumps. 87e i think?

I do try to draft behind trucks but have never seen an improvement in mpg. And I feel that its counter productive if i have to acc to drafting postion/ deccelerate so i dont hit them, then match their speed while they acc/decc at will.

I dont blame you for not believing me. Its hard to believe everyone else only gets 25-32mpg in the same car. Dont really keep records but I have measured mpg at almost every fuel stop.

First couple months calculating 35-36 mpg
Increasing gradually and now calculating 38-40 mpg
In both cases digital readout was ~2mpg higher (Highest ever being high 42+)

EDIT: I also rarely use A/C as it drains mpg sufficiently. I know most people would think im crazy not using A/C on highways with windows closed, but fan is on and if its extremely hot i will use it. I would guess I lose about 3-5 mpg while using A/C

Last edited by myrt1987; 08-16-2012 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:57 AM   #1662
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
OK, so I did this with my TomTom. Using data from my short trip to work this AM, I determined that my Impreza's odometer is off by 2.835% (car's odometer said 19.4 miles, TomTom said 19.95 miles). I won't update my Fuelly data until I confirm this over greater distances, but I'm confident it's pretty close.

TomTom car GPS units (at least all the models I've owned) don't provide the ability to capture trip distance traveled out of the box (it will tell you how far you have to go, but it won't tell you how far you have already gone). However, one reason I'm loyal to TomTom is because of the ability to add 3rd party software to the unit. In this case, a freeware product called Tripmaster is what gave my TomTom the ability to report trip distances:

http://www.webazar.org/tomtom/tripmaster.php?lang=uk

I'm not very happy that my car's odometer is off by almost 3% (even if it is off to my advantage). I'd prefer accuracy. I know it's common for cars to report slower speeds on the speedometer (probably in the name of safety--"Let's tell him he's doing 60 MPH when he's really only doing 57!"). But I thought the odometers were generally accurate.

I'm guessing it all averages out over time, though. As my tires wear out and the diameter gets smaller, the error should get smaller too, right?
Youre tires are always moving faster then the ground, the odometer can only read the speed of the wheels. The tires are actually ALWAYS slipping since it is rubber on pavement and not gears on a chain. The slipping is obv. minimal and in most cases negligent. But imo its more of a reason of odometer inaccuracies then tire diameter decreasing. That, and programming miscalculations and safety factor like you said.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:35 AM   #1663
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I agree with that a lot! Drives me crazy.

It's fly-by-wire so a reflash with a different throttle map could improve that. The throttle mapping is my biggest complaint about the car.
I can only guess that the throttle is front-loaded for a positive experience on the test drive. The person test-driving pushes the peddle and the car takes off, so it seems like the car has lots of acceleration even if the peddle isn't pushed very far. It would be nice if there was a way to set the peddle acceleration to be more linear, and less sensitive, after you've bought it.

By now, my 'muscle memory' is pretty well set, so I can get the acceleration I need without thinking about it, so it's not a big deal for me, but I totally get your point.

I haven't noticed the uneven acceleration, but I haven't paid attention to it. The engine itself has a pretty even power curve, so it must be the CVT. When accelerating, at certain points you can see the car accelerating without the tach. moving. It seems to behave differently when using the paddle shifters, more like a standard geared automatic transmission.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:55 AM   #1664
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I can only guess that the throttle is front-loaded for a positive experience on the test drive. The person test-driving pushes the peddle and the car takes off, so it seems like the car has lots of acceleration even if the peddle isn't pushed very far. It would be nice if there was a way to set the peddle acceleration to be more linear, and less sensitive, after you've bought it.
The CVTs used in the 2010-12 Legacy and Outback had a more linear feel, however those vehicles were then roasted for "sluggish acceleration". Fact is, people could have just pushed down the gas pedal futher.

Then the Impreza came out with this re-tuned lightweight "2nd gen" CVT, and a lot of reviews noted the car felt quick off the line, so Subaru probably accomplished what they were going for here.

Quote:
By now, my 'muscle memory' is pretty well set, so I can get the acceleration I need without thinking about it, so it's not a big deal for me, but I totally get your point.
I am definitely at this point as well, though sometime I do run into the black hole between "barely accelerating from a stop" and "almost running into the car in front of you".
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:07 AM   #1665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01

OK, so I did this with my TomTom. Using data from my short trip to work this AM, I determined that my Impreza's odometer is off by 2.835% (car's odometer said 19.4 miles, TomTom said 19.95 miles). I won't update my Fuelly data until I confirm this over greater distances, but I'm confident it's pretty close.

TomTom car GPS units (at least all the models I've owned) don't provide the ability to capture trip distance traveled out of the box (it will tell you how far you have to go, but it won't tell you how far you have already gone). However, one reason I'm loyal to TomTom is because of the ability to add 3rd party software to the unit. In this case, a freeware product called Tripmaster is what gave my TomTom the ability to report trip distances:

http://www.webazar.org/tomtom/tripmaster.php?lang=uk

I'm not very happy that my car's odometer is off by almost 3% (even if it is off to my advantage). I'd prefer accuracy. I know it's common for cars to report slower speeds on the speedometer (probably in the name of safety--"Let's tell him he's doing 60 MPH when he's really only doing 57!"). But I thought the odometers were generally accurate.

I'm guessing it all averages out over time, though. As my tires wear out and the diameter gets smaller, the error should get smaller too, right?
How was your speedometer?

Check your odometer over longer distances/speeds. Mine seems to error higher at faster speeds
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:14 AM   #1666
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How was your speedometer?

Check your odometer over longer distances/speeds. Mine seems to error higher at faster speeds
I'm not sure how accurate the speedometer was. It might have been off by 1 MPH or so, but I was mainly comparing the trip odometers.

I will continue to gather data before I commit any changes to my Fuelly data. I'd really prefer not to change my Fuelly data at all, because that will make Fuelly's "Total Miles Tracked" out of sync with what my car's odometer reads, which is weird. I'm having trouble accepting that my Fuelly Odometer might be more accurate than the odometer built into the actual car....

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Old 08-16-2012, 11:20 AM   #1667
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I'm not sure how accurate the speedometer was. It might have been off by 1 MPH or so, but I was mainly comparing the trip odometers.

I will continue to gather data before I commit any changes to my Fuelly data. I'd really prefer not to change my Fuelly data at all, because that will make Fuelly's "Total Miles Tracked" out of sync with what my car's odometer reads, which is weird. I'm having trouble accepting that my Fuelly Odometer might be more accurate than the odometer built into the actual car....

me too, first car i've ever driven that had an accurate speedo and not odo (my buick is dead on accurate for both, gas guage is horrible though; and our Jetta is dead on for the odo, but the speedo is off by 4mph at 75mph)
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:11 PM   #1668
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me too, first car i've ever driven that had an accurate speedo and not odo (my buick is dead on accurate for both, gas guage is horrible though; and our Jetta is dead on for the odo, but the speedo is off by 4mph at 75mph)
^ same here: all other cars i have ever driven have had speedometers that were reporting speeds higher than they really were, but the odometer matched maps (in the days before GPS) & mile markers, and google map estimates.

i have found some variability, but all of my calcs (for drives of 20 or more miles come out to an underreported mileage in the 3-3.4% range.

the speedometer always matches GPS measured speeds and also those digital readouts on the highway checking your speed.
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:39 AM   #1669
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Yes, my lumpy acceleration graph is with the CVT; I should have mentioned that.

For most of my driving I don't notice it very much. I have a few streets which I don't know how to properly describe -- maybe "high[er] speed surface streets." These are mostly straight with some elevation change, interurban, with signals a mile or so apart and speed limits at 55-60. For southern California people an example would be MacArthur Blvd. between Pacific Coast Highway and most of the way to Santa Ana. Jamboree, too. Every mile or so you have to accelerate from a stop to ~60 mph and this is where the lumpy throttle map is very noticeable. I drive this several times a week and so I keep getting reminded how much this mapping annoys me.

I wanted the convenience of an automatic because I am so "over" having to row a stick shift in stop-n-go commuter traffic. But I am regretting my choice a bit now. This weird throttle mapping and the less-than-advertised gas mileage are my only semi-serious complaints.
____________

In some respects, CVT is fated to fight a losing battle. I don't know if anyone remembers the '80s when Cadillac had the 4-6-8 engines. They used all 8 cylinders when accelerating, then dropped to 6, then 4 for economy mode. This was before any cars were drive-by-wire and the technology would get completely confused. It could never figure out if it should upshift to overdrive or drop a couple of cylinders or both. The result was a VERY unsatisfying driver experience and Cadillac dropped the concept after a single year or maybe 2. Google it and you get articles such as "1981 Cadillac Fleetwood V-8-6-4 - The 50 Worst Cars of All Time"

CVT gets into sort of the same bind. It needs to determine what your INTENTIONS are to operate smoothly. Thanks to all the sensors and decent programming it does a lot better than that horrible Caddy 4-6-8, but it still misses the point fairly often. We all know the the CVT is anything but "C". It goes up and down the RPM range with sometimes alarming extremes, especially when driving any hills.

I believe one could make a tidy profit marketing remapped throttle curves. Best would be throttle maps which were switchable between über-economy, city, sport and highway modes.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:44 AM   #1670
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I will continue to gather data before I commit any changes to my Fuelly data. I'd really prefer not to change my Fuelly data at all, because that will make Fuelly's "Total Miles Tracked" out of sync with what my car's odometer reads, which is weird. I'm having trouble accepting that my Fuelly Odometer might be more accurate than the odometer built into the actual car....

OK, so after collecting more data, I've decided that my odometer error is 2.7%.

Because I didn't want to lose the actual data as reported by the car's odometer, I decided to add another car to my Fuelly account. So now one tracks the odometer data as reported by the car, and the other tracks my adjusted odometer data.

Here are the results:

Running MPG Average
Original: 31.1
Adjusted: 31.9

Best MPG
Original: 34.5
Adjusted: 35.4

Miles Tracked
Original: 3108
Adjusted: 3192

Cost/Mile
Original: $0.115
Adjusted: $0.112
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:51 AM   #1671
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Sorry if I missed it- what average mph does the computer report when you are hitting toward your best mileage results? What highway speed do you limit yourself to? Per your other thread, I did find light drafting to be effective- obviously we need to define drafting.. I was keeping what I thought was sorta safe distance- 5 car lengths? Mythbusters proved that aggressive drafting is incredibly effective- but irresponsibly unsafe.


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Originally Posted by myrt1987 View Post
In the entire life of the car ive averaged OVER 40MPG! ... kinda

(dont remember exact #'s)
about 40.2 according to digital read.
Calculated probably about 38 or 39.
75/25 city/hwy driving in summer months
Limited 4dr

Ive gotten max mpg to a science: cruising as much as possible, never accelerate up a hill, obviously never flooring it (unless you have to or for pleasure), warming up the car before driving, keeping speed constant, staying around speed limit unless going downhill...

Its not uncommon for me to see 42+mpg when i fill up (calculated about 39/40)

Lovin this car
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:09 AM   #1672
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Sorry if I missed it- what average mph does the computer report when you are hitting toward your best mileage results? What highway speed do you limit yourself to? Per your other thread, I did find light drafting to be effective- obviously we need to define drafting.. I was keeping what I thought was sorta safe distance- 5 car lengths? Mythbusters proved that aggressive drafting is incredibly effective- but irresponsibly unsafe.
Im not quite sure what you mean. My average mph is high 30s i think but I can usually maintain 44ish mpg while going 50+mph (assuming flat road, maintaining speed, minimal traffic) As long as im not accelerating I see i get pretty good gas mileage at a variety of speeds. even going 80mph i could see a steady 50mpg going downhill and maintain speed. Its the accelerating that really kills mpg esp in awd.

I dont really limit my highway speed, I actually find myself trying to go as fast as i can ... as long as the needle stays positive. So Ill accelerate to maybe 55 or something fast enough where i can enter traffic easily and then go from there.

Well now that you said that im going to have to try drafting more. haha. i assumed it would only work at close range.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:41 AM   #1673
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Well now that you said that im going to have to try drafting more. haha. i assumed it would only work at close range.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:14 AM   #1674
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Oh wow, I wouldnt have thought at 100ft.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:43 AM   #1675
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Vehicle:
2012 Impreza 2.0i HB

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
OK, so after collecting more data, I've decided that my odometer error is 2.7%.

Because I didn't want to lose the actual data as reported by the car's odometer, I decided to add another car to my Fuelly account. So now one tracks the odometer data as reported by the car, and the other tracks my adjusted odometer data.

Here are the results:

Running MPG Average
Original: 31.1
Adjusted: 31.9

Best MPG
Original: 34.5
Adjusted: 35.4

Miles Tracked
Original: 3108
Adjusted: 3192

Cost/Mile
Original: $0.115
Adjusted: $0.112
i've thought about doing something similar, but in the end, i just put a disclaimer at the top of my fuelly profile that notes the 3% error. although i sometimes do the mental gymnastics, i'm trying to resign myself to just say the computer read out, even if still slightly optimistic, is what i'm getting during a particular tank and be happy with it.

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/thewho/impreza
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