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Old 09-26-2012, 02:00 PM   #1926
sgoldste01
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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
...but you cannot get both the power and the MPG's from Subaru...
A diesel would make this statement inaccurate, which is why I said what I said in my previous post. As long as it would be more reliable than VW's TDI engine, that would be the powerplant to buy. And Subaru has this very engine in other countries, so it's not like a lot of R&D would be required.

Oooh, I get a shiver running up my spine just thinking about it.
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:01 PM   #1927
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Id like 220hp, 50mpg, awd na, for $10k

not possible? oh, this car will do then... lol
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:06 PM   #1928
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A diesel would make this statement inaccurate, which is why I said what I said in my previous post. As long as it would be more reliable than VW's TDI engine, that would be the powerplant to buy. And Subaru has this very engine in other countries, so it's not like a lot of R&D would be required.

Oooh, I get a shiver running up my spine just thinking about it.
The Subaru diesel won't pass California's current emissions testing. VW's emissions system in their smaller cars is extremely complex and expensive.

US and Euro diesel emissions tests will merge at some point in the future, then hopefully we will see an avalanche of new diesel engines coming to this country.
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:26 PM   #1929
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Originally Posted by ocellaris View Post
VW's emissions system in their smaller cars is extremely complex and expensive.
And unreliable. Folks on the VW TDI MK6 forums are increasingly complaining about Diesel Particulate Filter failures, EGR failures, exhaust valve/sensor failures, and so on.

Then the "VW is great" population would say, "No problem, once I'm out of warranty and I have those problems, I'll just delete those components from my car." Until they learn that it costs $1500 to do the delete.

This, and many other reasons, is why I dumped a TDI that I loved (when it was running correctly) for the Impreza. I would tell the TDI-heads on the forum that their 40+ mpg cars weren't as economical as they thought once you factor in all of these expensive repairs. They told me to go away.

But by that point I was already gone.
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:41 PM   #1930
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Originally Posted by ocellaris

The Subaru diesel won't pass California's current emissions testing. VW's emissions system in their smaller cars is extremely complex and expensive.

US and Euro diesel emissions tests will merge at some point in the future, then hopefully we will see an avalanche of new diesel engines coming to this country.
One of the subaru vp's said they won't ever bring a diesel here because they don't think there is our will be a market for it
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:44 PM   #1931
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One of the subaru vp's said they won't ever bring a diesel here because they don't think there is our will be a market for it
Meh. I'll say it again. Meh.

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Old 09-26-2012, 03:26 PM   #1932
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The chances were so slim anyway. Diesel cars in the US are a rarity for a reason.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:29 PM   #1933
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One of the subaru vp's said they won't ever bring a diesel here because they don't think there is our will be a market for it
Which is odd because VW offers an (arguably) inferior product and has trouble keeping TDI models on the lots. Plus any diesel model would be a huge help towards Subaru meeting future CAFE regulation requirements. I think they are just blowing smoke until the US emissions regulations loosen or match Euro regulation.

While VW may have some problems, those TDIs cars are fantastic for real world MPG and cruising. On the same drive (Maine -> DC -> Maine), a friend of mine in a 2012 Jetta TDI hits 48+ MPG without even trying (going 75 almost the entire time, blasting past people up steep hills, flooring it when leaving a toll booth...). I drive like a grandma (<70 MPH) and only manage 35.x MPG. We both have family down in that area, and we have made the trip multiple times with similar results.

Plus that TDI drives like a dream with plenty of torque for hauling ass up mountains while my car wants to hit 5200+ RPM if I do something crazy like "Press the Cruise Control Resume button while going uphill".

Last edited by ocellaris; 09-26-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:32 PM   #1934
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The chances were so slim anyway. Diesel cars in the US are a rarity for a reason.
Agreed. And that reason is ignorance.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:37 PM   #1935
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Which is odd because VW offers an (arguably) inferior product and has trouble keeping TDI models on the lots.
This happens because the VW TDI sells itself during the test drive. It is truly a thing of beauty when it's running correctly (even VW TDIs are reliable enough to survive the average test drive). You can flog a TDI and get better MPGs than we get in our Imprezas while driving light-footed.

It's not until you own one that there's enough time for the gremlins to reveal themselves. And if you're out of warranty, well, hold onto your wallet.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:40 PM   #1936
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Agreed. And that reason is ignorance.
Winner!

When hopping into the same TDI I mentioned above for a lunch trip, a coworker said "Why doesn't it smell like a diesel?" They were dead serious about the question too, they had no idea a diesel could be quiet and not smell. Its 2012 and people still think all diesels blow black smoke out the exhaust and smell
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:45 PM   #1937
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Winner!

When hopping into the same TDI I mentioned above for a lunch trip, a coworker said "Why doesn't it smell like a diesel?" Seriously its 2012 and people still think all diesels blow black smoke out the exhaust and smell
You can blame malaise era Detroit for that.

Also, diesel gas stations aren't difficult to come by, but not every gas station has a diesel pump. And auto makers are bastards, so they charge a premium for a diesel because it gets better MPG's.


As for my 2012 Impreza Sport Premium 5 speed, I have gotten in the 31-32mpg range on trips on 50 mph semi-rural roads with occasional stop lights. My daily work commute on the freeway gets me 29 ish mpg where I drive around 70 mph. My mpg has been creeping up lately, though I don't know if that has to do with break-in, or if I'm just not so terrible at driving stick as I used to be.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:47 PM   #1938
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This happens because the VW TDI sells itself during the test drive. It is truly a thing of beauty when it's running correctly (even VW TDIs are reliable enough to survive the average test drive). You can flog a TDI and get better MPGs than we get in our Imprezas while driving light-footed.

It's not until you own one that there's enough time for the gremlins to reveal themselves. And if you're out of warranty, well, hold onto your wallet.
Having paid for two new pistons + labor + everything else associated with fixing the "EJ piston slap" problem, it goes both ways. No car company is immune to gremlins

More recent, go look at all the WRX ring land failures.
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Old 09-26-2012, 03:58 PM   #1939
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No car company is immune to gremlins
Undoubtedly. But I'll put my gambling money on Subaru reliability over VW reliability.



This image is based upon Consumer Reports' reliability and test data.
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:00 PM   #1940
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Undoubtedly. But I'll put my gambling money on Subaru reliability over VW reliability.



This image is based upon Consumer Reports' reliability and test data.
Dang, Chrysler is really on an island down there...
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:59 PM   #1941
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Having surpassed 15K miles myself, and recorded every fill up, I don't think the car has a notable break in period after the first full tank of gas or two. I think the MPG gets better when the temps are warm, and goes in the tank when temps are down. This appears to be primarily caused by the CVT not locking the torque convertor until the transmission temp is over 120F, this can take multiple miles in the winter.

Last winter people with manual transmission cars seemed to be less affected by the colder temps.
I agree that the torque converter not locking up when the CVT is not warm really hurts the short trip mpg. My 1 way trip to work is only 8 miles, of which 3 miles are weigh down by the CVT not locking up issue. Despite this, I'm still getting 31mpg on nearly 50/50 city/hwy driving. So I'm right at EPA estimate of 30 mixed. I imagine my mpg would be 2mpg better if the CVT can lock up independent of temperature.

I think the other critical factor is the GAS! I seem to have gotten 2-3 more mpg from Rotten Robbie 87 gas here in NorCal. There's got to be some difference in the formulation that's causing the difference. Maybe it's got less ethanol, or my car knock's less with it.
I'm certainly not claiming Rotten Robbie is superior in any way. I have not used Shell, Chevron, etc, yet. I can only say that my impreza likes Rotten Robbie more than 76 and Valero. I'll be doing experiments later to see if 89 or 91 octane gas would produce even better mpg.
There's a lot of gas to try, and I only fill up once every 2 weeks, so it'll be a long time before I can figure out what's the best gas mpg/$.
For now Rotten Robbie 87 is giving my 2-3 more mpg, so I'll stick with that.

I'm sure for EPA testing, they must have used best gas for mpg. Most likely pure gas without ethanol. There are lots of states in the US that requires ethanol be blended in gas. One can easily get 2-3 less mpg with ethanol blend gas compare to pure gas.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:15 PM   #1942
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You also have awd, not fwd. The car is heavier due to extra driveline components, and you are powering all the wheels in some form (not a true 50/50 like the 5sp, but still powering all the wheels
Not complaining, and you make some good points. No two models of cars are going to perform exactly the same. I love my Impreza, and when I want the power out of her, she performs phenomenally. I know what to expect in the MPG department too. No slouch there, especially considering the AWD...
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:18 PM   #1943
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Originally Posted by foghelmut

You can blame malaise era Detroit for that.

Also, diesel gas stations aren't difficult to come by, but not every gas station has a diesel pump. And auto makers are bastards, so they charge a premium for a diesel because it gets better MPG's.

As for my 2012 Impreza Sport Premium 5 speed, I have gotten in the 31-32mpg range on trips on 50 mph semi-rural roads with occasional stop lights. My daily work commute on the freeway gets me 29 ish mpg where I drive around 70 mph. My mpg has been creeping up lately, though I don't know if that has to do with break-in, or if I'm just not so terrible at driving stick as I used to be.
I only drive my car 1-2x per week right now, and i am still not nearly as smooth on the church as i would like to be. It is so much more touchy than our vw is
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:36 PM   #1944
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I only drive my car 1-2x per week right now, and i am still not nearly as smooth on the church as i would like to be. It is so much more touchy than our vw is
Yeah, I drove my wife's car (2003 honda crv 5mt) yesterday and was surprised how much more forgiving it was when shifting. I've gotten pretty smooth with the impreza now (after 3700 miles) but I still occasionally have a rough shift.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:47 PM   #1945
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I went here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
and it still does not give out the methodology used to compute the EPA numbers, even on the "Detailed Test Information" page. It says the new "high speed" averages 48.37 mph which is not really "high speed" but then it has other tests for AC and cold weather, and it doesn't say how those numbers are weighted. Is it a secret or is it freely available government information?

Last edited by stevehnm; 09-27-2012 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:36 AM   #1946
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You also have awd, not fwd. The car is heavier due to extra driveline components, and you are powering all the wheels in some form (not a true 50/50 like the 5sp, but still powering all the wheels
Not a factor in the official reported results. My 2004 Corolla, based on their recomputed method, is rated at 36 highway just like my Impreza. Those numbers include all the factors you are talking about. The actual difference is about 10 mpg - 40 for the Corolla, 30 (if I'm lucky) with the Impreza. This is 90% highway driving.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:00 AM   #1947
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I went here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
and it still does not give out the methodology used to compute the EPA numbers, even on the "Detailed Test Information" page. It says the new "high speed" averages 48.37 mph which is not really "high speed" but then it has other tests for AC and cold weather, and it doesn't say how those numbers are weighted. Is it a secret or is it freely available government information?
I am not sure what the fascination is with the EPA testing. All new cars undergo the same exact tests, whatever the EPA decides is the current testing methodology, and thus all EPA MPG numbers are relative and comparable. A few years back they adjusted the testing protocol which resulted in the same exact car from two model years suffering a loss of MPG (the testing became more accurate, and the new model year showed fewer MPG).

If you want to know what the Impreza is capable of, find a 10 mile stretch of highway, accelerate to 65mph, set your cruise control, reset one of your trip meters, and see what you average over 10 miles (I was close to 40MPG in my 5speed sport rated for 33 highway).

If you are buying an impreza, expecially a CVT, for short city commutes, and you live where it is cold, you are never going to see the Bold large print EPA numbers (that is based soley on actual drivers reporting here on this forum -- I don't have a CVT)

If you drive somewhat conservatively, with some highway miles, you will see the EPA numbers.

And if you don't know what "Expected Range" is considered normal by the EPA, it is also printed on your original window sticker, in the same box as the large numbers:

For my 5Spd Sport: 25 City (Expected range for most drivers is 20-30) and 33 Highway (expected range for most drivers is 27-39).

The large numbers on the label are not what you should expect your AVERAGE MPG to be. That number is printed in the middle of the sticker, in my case 28 mpg.

I am averaging 28.5 mpg calculated, and 30.5 as calculated by the dash display, but I don't drive on the highway much, just hilly back roads and there are about 10 stop lights on my way back and forth to work.

Last edited by Zeeper; 09-27-2012 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:14 AM   #1948
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Not a factor in the official reported results. My 2004 Corolla, based on their recomputed method, is rated at 36 highway just like my Impreza. Those numbers include all the factors you are talking about. The actual difference is about 10 mpg - 40 for the Corolla, 30 (if I'm lucky) with the Impreza. This is 90% highway driving.
30 mpg driving on the highway? maaaan you must be flying! or intense traffic i guess.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:14 AM   #1949
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I am not sure what the fascination is with the EPA testing. All new cars undergo the same exact tests, whatever the EPA decides is the current testing methodology, and thus all EPA MPG numbers are relative and comparable. A few years back they adjusted the testing protocol which resulted in the same car from two model years suffering a loss of MPG (the testing became more accurate, and the new model year showed fewer MPG).

If you want to know what the Impreza is capable of, find a 10 mile stretch of highway, accelerate to 65mph, set your cruise control, reset one of your trip meters, and see what you average over 10 miles (I was close to 40MPG in my 5speed sport rated for 33 highway).

If you are buying an impreza, expecially a CVT, for short city commutes and you live where it is cold, you are never going to see the Bold large print EPA numbers.

If you drive somewhat conservatively, with some highway miles, you will see the EPA numbers.
I agree that EPA ratings shouldn't necessarily be a specific owner's actual expectation of performance, however you are also correct that it should be a general guide, based on your driving history and habits, of what you should reasonably expect.

My problem is that the Subaru doesn't fit into that pattern for us. My wife and I drive very similarly and switch vehicles several times a week. I do have the longer commute though, and have almost solely been driving our fiat...why? Because even when I drove the Subaru ONLY on my commute (which is basically flat, 22 miles one way and minimal traffic at 60-65mph) the car only mustered 32.2mpg (interestingly the gauge read 35.7 on that tank...so don't trust your gauge, and no the tanks before/after were not wildly in-accurate on the positive side...see https://www.fuelly.com/driver/pxpaulx/impreza I am talking about tank #25).

On the other hand, our Fiat has lifetime mpg of 37.7 so far over 5200 miles (and climbing, epa rating of 30/38 for the manual). The gauge has never been more than 1mpg on the high side either. This week so far I have driven the Fiat only for my commute, and the gauge reads 41.2mpg, which will likely be about 40.5mpg if I filled and calculated it today.

Basically our house is right on the highway and work is right off it, I get on and set the cruise (only because it really is a flat drive), and yet arrive at completely different results from both cars...on a relative scale using the EPA ratings only as a gauge the subaru should conservatively be able to get 35mpg on my commute, yet it doesn't. Oh well!

The other thing is I really should do a video showing the instant mpg readouts of both cars over the same stretches...because they really don't look that different while I am driving - that would be extremely tough to get matched up though, but would be interesting.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:03 PM   #1950
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Originally Posted by stevehnm

Not a factor in the official reported results. My 2004 Corolla, based on their recomputed method, is rated at 36 highway just like my Impreza. Those numbers include all the factors you are talking about. The actual difference is about 10 mpg - 40 for the Corolla, 30 (if I'm lucky) with the Impreza. This is 90% highway driving.
Yes it does. You are expecting better than epa at I'm presuming faster than epa speeds in an.... wait for it..... AWD vehicle. Have you tried to drive the exact same way the epa tested to see if their numbers are achievable?

Tank to tank can vary widely due to factors you can't control. You have to look at average over multiple tanks. In my case of mostly(75%) highway, 72-75mph, i have a lifetime average of just shy of 30mpg. Sticker average is 28 for my car. Do you see me complaining?

Last edited by flyboy1100; 09-27-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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