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Old 01-31-2012, 04:02 PM   #51
elirentz
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You make waaay to many assumptions...and they are wrong...

If your comparison is to hold water, then you are saying that Nissan put its very best foot forward with the leaf. It tried the best of the best of the best for batteries and charging, and cooling etc.

Is that likely, or is it FAR more likely they built the leaf to a price for the average man to afford, not like Tesla who built a money is no object rich boy toy. They make concessions to charge time and capacity based on the cells they picked for the car which were no doubt not the best on the market, but met a happy median for price, availability (since they were making more than, OH 200 of them), and performance.

You can throw out numbers all you want, but the fact remains that the Tesla is a ultra low production toy sold as a gimmick to make people think electric cars do not suck.

Where as the Leaf is a mass market electric car made to be affordable to the slightly above average income common family.

The leaf is not an indicator of the best Nissan can do, but as it is, it is about on par with the best Tesla can do. Until Tesla makes a 35000 dollar 5 passenger car, Or until Nissan makes a 57000 dollar electric car we will not know...

But to even come close to implying the company that made the GTR is behind technologically to an upstart like Tesla is a comical joke.

Try to wrap your head around this. The Prius and Volt have essentially unlimited range due to something called an internal combustion engine, that can drive the wheels instead of and with the electric motor seamlessly. That lone is epically more complex and more technologically sophisticated than a pure electric.

As for the go kart analogy you propose, do not be ridiculous. Go karts do not have roofs.
But your right, the Tesla is not a golf kart, as they do not have regenerative brakes..

the tesla has FAR more common with an RC6


Tesla = Golf cart that is less useful.
one last thing, do not mistake orders for sales... big difference.
wrap your head around this I never said that Nissan couldn't develop the technology just that they haven't and that Tesla's product is the state of the art for production EV's. You said exactly what I said in that the leaf has compromises all throughout its design and the technology is not nearly as advanced, that was my point. You can try to assume my lack of intelligence all you want but you'll be wrong. I produce numbers illustrating my point and you ignore them and say I'm making assumptions that are all wrong.

As for the golf cart thing you're right they don't have user variable regenerative braking nor the rectifiers to convert the generated AC power to charge the batteries. They also don't have an advanced traction control system, efficient high power variable frequency inverters, battery failure/ cooling/heating monitors and safety systems, the list goes on. As for your rc car analogy that is a dc system entirely different but I'm sure you already know that.

Again why would Toyota (makers of the original electric Rav4) pay Tesla $100 million dollars to help them develop the next E-Rav4 if Tesla brought no new technology to the table? If you say its for hype/ marketing I'd argue that Tesla's brand is nowhere near large enough to influence Toyota's for that kind of price. Sure Toyota could spend the time and money to R & D their own versions but it would probably cost them more money being as big as they are.

I think you both are making assumptions about what I'm trying to say here. I realize that Tesla has just improved on the EV design but they have developed new state of the art technology to do it for a (somewhat) reasonable price. This is also why Daimler has invested/ collaborated with them as well. I never said Nissan as whole was behind Tesla technologically but as far as ev's go they are. I realize that Tesla's products are more expensive but that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:14 PM   #52
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You made the point of saying that they are most advanced EV manufacturer in the world. And I merely contend that they are not. They may have built something nobody else has built, but it is not because they know something that the other auto manufacturers do not know, it is more because the big manufacturers have not chosen to make said car. Subtle but important distinction, and not really worth arguing any more.

They assembled parts in a way to produce a vehicle that nobody else is making. I will give them that. The business model is innovative FAR more than the engineering.
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:34 PM   #53
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You made the point of saying that they are most advanced EV manufacturer in the world.
Ok that's where the problem is I was saying they are the makers of the most advanced (consumer available) EV in the world. Not the most advanced company making EV's subtle distinction. I realize with time and money Nissan and Porsche could make cars that compete with Tesla's and i would love to see that. I also think they tried their hand and realized that it was going to take more research, time, and money to get there than they may have wanted to spend or first thought. Its not as simple as throwing more batteries at it.

I realize they haven't completely changed the state of technology as we know it but they do have innovations in their design that make having a power source that large liveable and (relatively) safe as well as making fun to drive cars that aren't just appliances. Their ideas and design were a major source of inspiration for both the volt and leaf. I think that says something.
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:38 PM   #54
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I could go on to ask you how you define 'advanced', but lets just leave it what you said.
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Old 08-27-2012, 05:24 PM   #55
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First full review. Pretty impressive.
  • 0-60 time: 3.9 seconds (Tesla official number is 4.4 seconds)
  • Quarter mile: 12.5 seconds at 110.9 mph (12.6 seconds)
  • 100.7 MPGe during a 200+ mile drive (EPA says 89 MPGe)
  • MT got 233.7 miles of range in mostly high speed highway driving

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._verification/
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:23 PM   #56
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Very nice. Now to find an extra bucket of cash...
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Old 08-27-2012, 06:26 PM   #57
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that's pretty awesome.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:33 AM   #58
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This is a big step forward in moving away from our dependence on oil. Obviously doesn't solve the issue as 80% of our electricity comes from fossil fuels, but you have to start somewhere.

Most people are looking at this car like it's your only car. That's just dumb and not the best way to look at this. If you can afford a $77k car, you probably own another car, minivan, or suv. Most american households with 2 parents will have at least 2 cars. This is a huge step forward because most americans will never drive 300 miles in a day unless they are going out of town for a road trip. In which case, they can take their other car. But for the other 300+ days of the year in which they are generally within a 50 mile radius of their home, this is awsome. So even though you aren't eliminating your households dependence on oil, you can drastically reduce it by over 50%. I think i would take the electric car for most of my errands or whenever i can as long as it has enough juice.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:47 AM   #59
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This is a big step forward in moving away from our dependence on oil.
Meh. I think it's insignificant. A much bigger step is the plugin Prius. As much as I hate the Prius, there's really no way to deny it. Toyota is incrementally transforming the Prius from a high mileage hybrid into a true EV, while keeping the price down where anybody can afford it without a tax rebate. Tesla is creating toys and not meaningfully advancing EV technology.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:58 AM   #60
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The Model S is 100K with a Camry interior, seats, and driving dynamics. That's why it can't compete with a gas-powered car. Putting it side by side with a 100K German car highlights the absolutely ridiculous comparison.

As far as how it drives - it's as far from my M5 as my M5 is from my GT3. Not even in the same league. It's a Camry with torque, a huge screen, and an electrical inlet.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:20 AM   #61
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Overall, the entire plug-in evolution "not quite revolution" is fun to watch. It seems that all the plug in manufacturers are getting around 90mpg equivalents on average. I think what makes it significant is 1/3 the fuel usage of the average car on a 15000 mile user average. Overall, it's cool that many different manufacturers are getting on board.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:08 PM   #62
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The Model S is 100K with a Camry interior, seats, and driving dynamics. That's why it can't compete with a gas-powered car. Putting it side by side with a 100K German car highlights the absolutely ridiculous comparison.

As far as how it drives - it's as far from my M5 as my M5 is from my GT3. Not even in the same league. It's a Camry with torque, a huge screen, and an electrical inlet.
I dunno man, the new Camrys drive pretty nice. It will certainly out handle and out perform a Camry. So what exactly is Camry-like about it? Poor steering feel?
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:50 PM   #63
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Meh. I think it's insignificant. A much bigger step is the plugin Prius. As much as I hate the Prius, there's really no way to deny it. Toyota is incrementally transforming the Prius from a high mileage hybrid into a true EV, while keeping the price down where anybody can afford it without a tax rebate. Tesla is creating toys and not meaningfully advancing EV technology.
This car proves that you can have an everyday practical electric car and put it into full production. You can do about 5 hours worth of driving throughout the day, which is plenty more than most people will do. If you're like me and have solar panels and a wind turbine to help supplement the electricity, you can drive almost for free. If i had one of these, i'd put in a large battery bank in my garage and try to charge it off of that whenever i can.

But you're right, it's not down to the pricepoint of the prius yet, but it is about 30% less than the tesla roadster launched only a few years ago. Price is going down and part of the higher price is due to lower volume of production. Every part on a car is custom made by some supplier, the more volume you have that supplier make, the less it costs.

In time the cost will go down as production goes up and technology costs less , but performance wise it is already at the milestone to make EV vehicles practical. This is a huge leap forward and part of a 3 part package to sell EV's to the general public. Performance, practicality, and price. You have performance and practicality, and once price is down, many households will own one and keep the spouses vehicle a gasser for long trips.

The prius plugin is not really an EV milestone, it only does 11 miles. How much of your day can you accomplish on 11 miles? The rest of the car doesn't make financial sense because you can buy a 42mpg car for $15k less. The money you spend to get 50mpg isn't worth it after the first 11 miles.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:52 PM   #64
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Meh. I think it's insignificant. A much bigger step is the plugin Prius. As much as I hate the Prius, there's really no way to deny it. Toyota is incrementally transforming the Prius from a high mileage hybrid into a true EV, while keeping the price down where anybody can afford it without a tax rebate. Tesla is creating toys and not meaningfully advancing EV technology.
Actually I would say the leaf, volt, and PiP are all big steps. All are relatively cheap compared to the model S as described here. All significantly reduce gasoline consumption. The low end model S is $50k though so a lot more affordable.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:53 PM   #65
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I dunno man, the new Camrys drive pretty nice. It will certainly out handle and out perform a Camry. So what exactly is Camry-like about it? Poor steering feel?
The entire interior including seats may have been lifted directly from a Camry (save for the screen). It looks and feels like a cheap car. Steering feel is sharp and direct until you get to what should be 5/10's, at which point it's full understeer. The entire time, the rest of the car is not keeping up (rigidity/slop), and you are sliding around on a tall, bench seat. Like throwing a massive SC and big wheels on an otherwise stock Camry and selling it for 100K.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Nick
The entire interior including seats may have been lifted directly from a Camry (save for the screen). It looks and feels like a cheap car. Steering feel is sharp and direct until you get to what should be 5/10's, at which point it's full understeer. The entire time, the rest of the car is not keeping up (rigidity/slop), and you are sliding around on a tall, bench seat. Like throwing a massive SC and big wheels on an otherwise stock Camry and selling it for 100K.
Did you drive one at the Tesla launch event? Yours is the only less than glowing review I've seen. Everyone else has downed the Kool-aid.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:23 PM   #67
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Did you drive one at the Tesla launch event? Yours is the only less than glowing review I've seen. Everyone else has downed the Kool-aid.
I get invites to most of their events, likely just zip code based. Their Palo Alto/Menlo Park location is a few minutes from my house. My review would be glowing if it was supposed to be a Camry competitor, had half the power, and cost 40K. But they are billing it as an M5 competitor and charging 100K, which it absolutely is not.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:27 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Nick
I get invites to most of their events, likely just zip code based. Their Palo Alto/Menlo Park location is a few minutes from my house. My review would be glowing if it was supposed to be a Camry competitor, had half the power, and cost 40K. But they are billing it as an M5 competitor and charging 100K, which it absolutely is not.
So you might like the RAV4 EV yet: $42.5k post tax credit, half the power from a detuned Model S motor, 41.8 kWh of battery, and no upmarket pretensions.
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Old 08-28-2012, 07:38 PM   #69
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Quote:
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I get invites to most of their events, likely just zip code based. Their Palo Alto/Menlo Park location is a few minutes from my house. My review would be glowing if it was supposed to be a Camry competitor, had half the power, and cost 40K. But they are billing it as an M5 competitor and charging 100K, which it absolutely is not.
Well the low end model S is pretty close to exactly that. So you should be happy
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Old 08-28-2012, 08:30 PM   #70
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A Camry doesn't do 60 in 3.9 seconds, then stop in 105 feet, nor does it pull 0.92g on the skidpad. Seems like impressive performance from a 4 door sedan.
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:55 PM   #71
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So you might like the RAV4 EV yet: $42.5k post tax credit, half the power from a detuned Model S motor, 41.8 kWh of battery, and no upmarket pretensions.
Sounds great - if I wanted an EV I would certainly look at it. I only went to the Tesla events because I was intrigued by the claims - and wasn't going to return to drive it after seeing the interior, but did so after some of the reviews started trickling out. Figured I would share with my fellow car nerds here since few non-press have driven it as of yet.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:20 AM   #72
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Real "all-day" 200+ mile range. Looks good. Fast as hell in the city. Same basic price as the snob-mobile in the stall next to it.

As long as it's basically reliable (MB, BMW and such are not so good anymore), I say it's a success story for it's real world goals. Hell, most folks think thier Camrys are comfortable. It's a huge step in the right direction for eventually getting things like it in the everyday man's garage.

Unfortunatly, while Tesla is laying the groundwork and doing the proof-of-concept stuff - I don't see them as ever being 'the' or even a mainstream EV manufacture. The big OEMs will just 'steal' thier work when perceptions change for the better.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:17 AM   #73
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Unfortunatly, while Tesla is laying the groundwork and doing the proof-of-concept stuff - I don't see them as ever being 'the' or even a mainstream EV manufacture. The big OEMs will just 'steal' thier work when perceptions change for the better.
What work are they going to steal?
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:21 AM   #74
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Precisely, tesla has done nothing innovative that the OEMs cannot already do if they chose.

If this car becomes relevant, and it won't mind you, Toyota and Ford will see that cutting into their sales and produce a better product for less and simply put them out of business.

So in a way if they become a success, they will be put out of business
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:49 AM   #75
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The thing is until recently, the big Manufacturers haven't done much. That is definately changing, but how much is spurred on by the success of Telsa's time in the press?
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