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Old 08-29-2012, 09:07 AM   #76
SCRAPPYDO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1
The thing is until recently, the big Manufacturers haven't done much. That is definately changing, but how much is spurred on by the success of Telsa's time in the press?
I think federal regulations on fuel economy and high Gas prices for the big manufactures interest in hybrids. Not a marginal quality government supported upstart who has sold a couple thousand cars.

Let's get real
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:15 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I think federal regulations on fuel economy and high Gas prices for the big manufactures interest in hybrids. Not a marginal quality government supported upstart who has sold a couple thousand cars.

Let's get real
I am not talking about the quality or Quantity of the cars, just the amount of press that the company has generated in general for EV's and going beyond the gold cart view that many had before Tesla.

The Prius also had a lot of press before that, but it labeled as a Hybrid and most did not view it as an EV at all.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by E. Nick View Post
The entire interior including seats may have been lifted directly from a Camry (save for the screen). It looks and feels like a cheap car. Steering feel is sharp and direct until you get to what should be 5/10's, at which point it's full understeer. The entire time, the rest of the car is not keeping up (rigidity/slop), and you are sliding around on a tall, bench seat. Like throwing a massive SC and big wheels on an otherwise stock Camry and selling it for 100K.
Interesting. What did you gather about other people's reactions at the event? I think the Model S will sell well personally. Rich people don't want to be stuck in Prii forever.

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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Precisely, tesla has done nothing innovative that the OEMs cannot already do if they chose.

If this car becomes relevant, and it won't mind you, Toyota and Ford will see that cutting into their sales and produce a better product for less and simply put them out of business.

So in a way if they become a success, they will be put out of business
I think you guys are confused about how this whole thing works. Might I remind everybody that Tesla is building the RAV4 EV as well. Tesla makes most of it's money providing EV services to other companies. Don't forget that there is a California zero emission mandate that most OEMs don't want to deal with, they can throw a little money Tesla's way and *poof* mandate met.

I imagine Tesla will continue to be the "premium" EV maker for a long time to come. It's unlikely they will be able to produce the volume to compete in low cost EVs against the big OEMs but they don't have to as they will just license technology and provide services for those.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:13 PM   #79
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Precisely, tesla has done nothing innovative that the OEMs cannot already do if they chose.

If this car becomes relevant, and it won't mind you, Toyota and Ford will see that cutting into their sales and produce a better product for less and simply put them out of business.

So in a way if they become a success, they will be put out of business
Here we go with this again

Its always the same 2 haters.

Tesla has a number of innovative patents on their drivetrain, battery, and charging systems. Patents for which companies like Toyota and Daimler are willing to pay high dollar. Have Tesla re-invented the wheel or built a pluto rover, no, but they do have innovative design in their equipment that makes their EV's far superior to the rest on the market.

Their silicon valley startup mentality, mission statement, and close proximity to the school make it a highly sought employer for engineering students fresh out of Stanford one of the best engineering schools in the world. So they have the resources for further innovation in the future. Its highly competitive, I know I've been trying to get an engineering position there since I graduated.

Just because you don't understand what innovations they've made doesn't mean there aren't any. Just go look through their patent list its all there.

Why would Toyota, a company who has already made one of the most popular EV's of all time the original Rav4 EV, want to join forces with Tesla if they had nothing to offer? Publicity? Hardly Tesla is but a whisper in the wind compared to the likes of Toyota. Plus their new Rav4 EV only advertises Tesla in a couple of hidden spots. Its because they currently make the most advanced and best performing EV drivetrain and charging system on the market and are continuing to develop it as the technology advances.


Could Toyota have spent the time and resources to figure out solutions to the hurdles that Tesla has met in development, sure. Would it cost them more than it cost Tesla or cost more than Toyota's investment in the company, probably.

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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Not a marginal quality government supported upstart who has sold a couple thousand cars.

Let's get real
That's funny I seem to remember a while ago quite a few people around here swore it was all just vaporware. What exactly makes them marginal quality? All the review say its easily the best EV on the market and a great drive. There haven't been a ton of reliability complaints like Fisker had initially and there's plenty of Roadsters that have been on the road quite a while now. So what is it?


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I think you guys are confused about how this whole thing works. Might I remind everybody that Tesla is building the RAV4 EV as well. Tesla makes most of it's money providing EV services to other companies. Don't forget that there is a California zero emission mandate that most OEMs don't want to deal with, they can throw a little money Tesla's way and *poof* mandate met.

I imagine Tesla will continue to be the "premium" EV maker for a long time to come. It's unlikely they will be able to produce the volume to compete in low cost EVs against the big OEMs but they don't have to as they will just license technology and provide services for those.
Exactly, although they have the facilities now to make high volume they would need some major expansion to have any other models.

I still don't think the technology is quite ready yet for mainstream high-volume low price EV's. Many of the customers at that price point can only afford one car which makes range anxiety more of a factor. Its not too far off with the Model S being able to quick charge 150 miles worth in 30 mins and Tesla installing chargers. Obviously thats not enough yet for really high volume in the US. I think the Model S is great but I have to wonder how many sales are out there more than roadster probably but we'll see. I hope it does well.

Tesla should seriously think about making some sort of lower cost fleet vehicle to help ramp up higher volume manufacturing.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:57 PM   #80
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Interesting. What did you gather about other people's reactions at the event? I think the Model S will sell well personally. Rich people don't want to be stuck in Prii forever.
There were a couple other car guys there when I drove it (a GT3 and an R8). We gravitated together and all felt the same. The rest seemed quite enamored with it - the quote of the day was that it could "get to the Stanford mall from here in less than 5 seconds," which seemed to pinpoint the demographic in the room.

However, I'm not sure they will be giving up their 7-series or S-class for a Model S unless they value the EV image more than the car itself. Example - my neighbor bought a McLaren and a Fisker (same dealership) for daily duty, and was at the Model S events - he said it wasn't "special enough."

I think it comes down to the EV image. If that is important enough to people, it will sell. But I don't think the car will sell for it's comparative objective strengths vs. the gas counterparts. Saving money on gas after spending 60-100K on a Model S isn't a reason to buy.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:18 PM   #81
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I think it comes down to the EV image. If that is important enough to people, it will sell. But I don't think the car will sell for it's comparative objective strengths vs. the gas counterparts. Saving money on gas after spending 60-100K on a Model S isn't a reason to buy.
Good points. Although I would say it isn't always about image. There are plenty of customers who want it because it is a pure ev because they like driving an electric car image or not.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:53 PM   #82
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Good points. Although I would say it isn't always about image. There are plenty of customers who want it because it is a pure ev because they like driving an electric car image or not.
Because limited range and charge times are FUN?

Pure hyperbole. You have no idea why customers buy these cars. Most want a unique toy.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:55 PM   #83
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Oh and Elirentz, JC already answered your question about why Toyota licensed TESLA. It was convenient and cheaper than doing it themselves. Not because Tesla has some magic voodoo.. It is an electric car with an battery. It is not rocket science.

And I would know...
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:57 PM   #84
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Because limited range and charge times are FUN?

Pure hyperbole. You have no idea why customers buy these cars. Most want a unique toy.
More along the lines of they have a vehicle few have with a whole new driving experience for them and they have a self image of saving the planet.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:59 PM   #85
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Exactly, although they have the facilities now to make high volume they would need some major expansion to have any other models.

I still don't think the technology is quite ready yet for mainstream high-volume low price EV's. Many of the customers at that price point can only afford one car which makes range anxiety more of a factor. Its not too far off with the Model S being able to quick charge 150 miles worth in 30 mins and Tesla installing chargers. Obviously thats not enough yet for really high volume in the US. I think the Model S is great but I have to wonder how many sales are out there more than roadster probably but we'll see. I hope it does well.

Tesla should seriously think about making some sort of lower cost fleet vehicle to help ramp up higher volume manufacturing.
I wasn't talking about facilities. Tesla can't even come close to the economy of scale that companies like Toyota and Ford enjoy. Their cost for materials and components are undoubtedly significantly higher than any mainstream OEM. Higher priced cars have higher margins so they are OK when they are playing in that realm. They are far far away from being able to build a lower priced car that's competitively equipped.

I guess it depends on your definition of low-priced when you are talking about the market. I was thinking mid 30s for a well equipped car. Even the OEMs can't get there right now. I think there would definitely be a market for them. Plenty of people can afford two cars who simply chose not to but might for the right EV. If the Tesla roadster was $35k I think they would have sold as many as they could make.

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Originally Posted by E. Nick View Post
There were a couple other car guys there when I drove it (a GT3 and an R8). We gravitated together and all felt the same. The rest seemed quite enamored with it - the quote of the day was that it could "get to the Stanford mall from here in less than 5 seconds," which seemed to pinpoint the demographic in the room.

However, I'm not sure they will be giving up their 7-series or S-class for a Model S unless they value the EV image more than the car itself. Example - my neighbor bought a McLaren and a Fisker (same dealership) for daily duty, and was at the Model S events - he said it wasn't "special enough."

I think it comes down to the EV image. If that is important enough to people, it will sell. But I don't think the car will sell for it's comparative objective strengths vs. the gas counterparts. Saving money on gas after spending 60-100K on a Model S isn't a reason to buy.
Interesting, thanks for the insight. Keep in mind this is only the second car Tesla has ever built and really their first ground up model. I would be shocked if it was 5 series good. The fact that it's as good as it is already is impressive to me. I think there will be enough early adopters for them to sell well for a couple years. Hopefully by then they will have improved the car enough to reach a broader market. That would be my strategy if I were there.

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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Oh and Elirentz, JC already answered your question about why Toyota licensed TESLA. It was convenient and cheaper than doing it themselves. Not because Tesla has some magic voodoo.. It is an electric car with an battery. It is not rocket science.

And I would know...
Don't you work for NASA? What would you know about rocket science these days? I think you know all about outsourcing engineering work to convenient and cheaper companies over doing it yourself though.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:59 PM   #86
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Because limited range and charge times are FUN?

Pure hyperbole. You have no idea why customers buy these cars. Most want a unique toy.
Again, limited range is relative. 200-300 miles is not very "limited", most people do not drive that far every day. My subie does about 350 miles per tank, how often have i ever filled up more than once per day? Only on road trips, which is very rare.

For people that can afford this car, they or their spouses usually have a gasser for those long road trips anyways.

I think it's pretty cool i can just park it in my garage and plug it in at night. Then use it 90% of the year to run all my errands and daily tasks and never have to visit a fuel pump. More convenient to me i think.
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:08 PM   #87
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Also, insideline tested a Model S and got similar performance numbers (no range testing).

Quote:
Test Results:

Acceleration
0-30 (sec): 2.0 (2.0 w/ TC on)
0-45 (sec): 3.0 (3.0 w/ TC on)
0-60 (sec): 4.3 (4.3 w/ TC on)
0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec): 4.0 (4.0 w/ TC on)
0-75 (sec): 6.1 (6.1 w/ TC on)
1/4-Mile (sec @ mph): 12.6 @ 108.3 (12.6 @ 108.2 w/ TC on)

Braking
30-0 (ft): 27
60-0 (ft): 108

Handling
Slalom (mph): 66.8 (66.0 w/TC off)
Skid Pad Lateral Acceleration (g): 0.86 (0.86 w/TC on)
Db @ Idle: 35.4
Db @ Full Throttle: 64.2
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 61.2

Comments:

Acceleration: As you would expect with a ton of instant torque, it gets off the line in a hurry, with no wheelspin whatsoever. Just endless forward thrust. The first and second runs were the quickest, and after that it just got slower and slower despite having plenty of charge. By the sixth and final run it was 0.3 second slower.

Braking: Very firm pedal. Feels like a normal car without all the hybrid wonkiness. Just a little bit of extra travel at the very end of the stroke, but rock-solid stability and no fade. First stop was 110 feet. Second stop was shortest at 108 feet and third stop was longest at 112 feet. Very consistent.

Handling: Skid pad: Definitely felt the weight here, and the lack of a free-revving internal-combustion engine means changes in throttle have less effect on the chassis. Still, car felt pretty precise.

Slalom: The stability system cannot be fully defeated, but I was impressed with the intervention point. And it would even allow some decent slalom-exit power-on oversteer before it would slam on the brakes. Preferred the midlevel standard mode over Sport, which seemed like it was fighting me more than helping. A very long and heavy car and was surprised it could go through at almost 67 mph. Seems like a very good suspension tuning compromise.
http://www.insideline.com/porsche/pa...rack-test.html
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:38 PM   #88
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My subie does about 350 miles per tank, how often have i ever filled up more than once per day? Only on road trips, which is very rare.
700 miles is a hell of a long day.

OTOH, I regularly travel up to eastern Washington, which is a good chunk of one tank of gas, and well beyond the range of this new Tesla.
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:12 PM   #89
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I wasn't talking about facilities. Tesla can't even come close to the economy of scale that companies like Toyota and Ford enjoy. Their cost for materials and components are undoubtedly significantly higher than any mainstream OEM. Higher priced cars have higher margins so they are OK when they are playing in that realm. They are far far away from being able to build a lower priced car that's competitively equipped.

I guess it depends on your definition of low-priced when you are talking about the market. I was thinking mid 30s for a well equipped car. Even the OEMs can't get there right now. I think there would definitely be a market for them. Plenty of people can afford two cars who simply chose not to but might for the right EV. If the Tesla roadster was $35k I think they would have sold as many as they could make.

Interesting, thanks for the insight. Keep in mind this is only the second car Tesla has ever built and really their first ground up model. I would be shocked if it was 5 series good. The fact that it's as good as it is already is impressive to me. I think there will be enough early adopters for them to sell well for a couple years. Hopefully by then they will have improved the car enough to reach a broader market. That would be my strategy if I were there.

Don't you work for NASA? What would you know about rocket science these days? I think you know all about outsourcing engineering work to convenient and cheaper companies over doing it yourself though.
The fact that I do work for NASA means not having to justify the hard work we have done to anybody. I just thank the taxpayers for trusting me their money and promise I will work hard to advance mans presence in space every day.

Not taking the bait bud. I have too much respect for the men and women HERE to get into a pissing match about how much YOU THINK we know.

Insult me all you want. Free country. But do not belittle what is probably the best agency in the entire government.
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:45 PM   #90
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The fact that I do work for NASA means not having to justify the hard work we have done to anybody. I just thank the taxpayers for trusting me their money and promise I will work hard to advance mans presence in space every day.

Not taking the bait bud. I have too much respect for the men and women HERE to get into a pissing match about how much YOU THINK we know.

Insult me all you want. Free country. But do not belittle what is probably the best agency in the entire government.
I guess we know what gets your government issued panties in a bunch. Might I remind you I'm also an aerospace engineer or used to be at least.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:07 PM   #91
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Some aerospace engineers work at McDonalds. The degree does not mean as much as the job. Most engineers here are not aerospace, they are Mechanical, electrical, computer, etc. Only a small portion are aerospace.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:44 PM   #92
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Some aerospace engineers work at McDonalds. The degree does not mean as much as the job. Most engineers here are not aerospace, they are Mechanical, electrical, computer, etc. Only a small portion are aerospace.
I didn't say I had a degree in aerospace engineering, I said I was an aerospace engineer. Jeez you government guys are slow.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:10 PM   #93
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I love you guys who give themselves titles
Wait I gave my son some Tylenol this morning.
I am a doctor as well
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:06 PM   #94
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I love you guys who give themselves titles
Wait I gave my son some Tylenol this morning.
I am a doctor as well
*shrug* Believe whatever you want. I've flown on planes with systems that I oversaw the design of from requirements definition to FAA certification, you probably have too.
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Old 08-30-2012, 02:19 AM   #95
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Oh and Elirentz, JC already answered your question about why Toyota licensed TESLA. It was convenient and cheaper than doing it themselves. Not because Tesla has some magic voodoo.. It is an electric car with an battery. It is not rocket science.

And I would know...
Yeah and I said something similar in my post. You obviously didn't read it. Right next to where I said that they didn't re-invent the wheel or power a car with fusion but they do have the best/ most state of the art EV drive train on the market.



Rocket scientist != electrical engineer...I should know....I am one...


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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Because limited range and charge times are FUN?

Pure hyperbole. You have no idea why customers buy these cars. Most want a unique toy.
No but instant acceleration and good handling are. Charge times aren't an issue for the most part because most charge at night.

So you who are so wise in the ways of customer psychology, how did you come to this conclusion?
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I love you guys who give themselves titles
Wait I gave my son some Tylenol this morning.
I am a doctor as well
Says the guys who likes to drop that he's a rocket scientist into a thread about electric cars.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:27 AM   #96
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Whatever makes you feel better dude.
There is nothing to get excited about here. Nothing that is going to change the world.

As for airplane systems nope I have never done that. My experience was mostly space shuttle main propulsion. But the FAA is not easy to work with. So kudos for that accompaniment.

Just for the record, and to ease this arguement down. Some of the most brilliant people I know do not have degrees. And some of the most lazy useless individuals around do.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:23 AM   #97
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Can someone bring a micrometer into this thread? We need to measure some penises to the nth degree.
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:09 PM   #98
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The fact that I do work for NASA means not having to justify the hard work we have done to anybody. I just thank the taxpayers for trusting me their money and promise I will work hard to advance mans presence in space every day.

Not taking the bait bud. I have too much respect for the men and women HERE to get into a pissing match about how much YOU THINK we know.

Insult me all you want. Free country. But do not belittle what is probably the best agency in the entire government.
I know people who were/are at NASA, EPA, OMB, and some other agencies and honestly most of them are hard working individuals who could get paid more in the private sector but want to do something good for the country. I am sure there are outliers and problems in every agency, but it still seems the exception to me honestly. I think this explains your hostility toward government though mostly people are frustrated with the system they work under regardless of what system that is
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:35 PM   #99
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Whatever makes you feel better dude.
There is nothing to get excited about here. Nothing that is going to change the world.
Its not about feeling better...whatever that's supposed to mean.


Nothing for you to get excited about...fine then why are you here? Like I said before they haven't come up with the next microchip substrate (or whatever) because the tech is meant for consumer vehicles and everyone is already complaining about the cost as it is.

IMO they have changed something when they inspire Lutz to make the Volt (as much as a flop as that was) get Toyota making a new Rav4 EV etc. I know it has to do with environmental regs too but both Lutz and Toyoda have said that the roadster made them change the way the think of EV's.

If you actually want to have a discussion about some of the technology instead of just ranting then I'm all for it but I have a feeling you don't care really anyway, maybe you just haven't like the idea since the beginning IDK. Yes compared to the tech you see at NASA Tesla isn't close but why would it be?
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:47 PM   #100
gggplaya
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Whatever makes you feel better dude.
There is nothing to get excited about here. Nothing that is going to change the world.
Why does it have to change the world? No one referenced the Tesla to being groundbreaking and substantial enough to accomplish that.

It's just a big step forward. Proving you can have a sexy, stylish high performance electic car with practical range for everyday use. It breaks the mold of bland, slow, ugly and uncool electric cars. That's a large step forward, but no, it will not change the world, make pigs fly, or freeze hell over, or put a man on mars.

The only drawback is the the price. But i'm confident in time, the price will eventually meet up with gasoline vehicles in the same class. In the future even if they made no advancements in range and acceleration, but got the price below $30k, i'd buy one. They also need to make the battery packs hot-swappable for taxi companies and such. This would drastically help cut polution in large metropolitan cities like NYC.
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