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Old 01-28-2012, 10:08 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default 2013 Porsche 911 Turbo Getting New Tri-Turbo Setup




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Porsche is upping the engineering ante with their 2013 911 Turbo, which our spy photographer caught yesterday, to deliver more power and better fuel efficiency all at once.
The new 911 Turbo will keep the same 3.8-liter horizontally opposed six cylinder engine as previous models, but it will have a new boost thanks to a complex tri-turbo setup similar to what BMW is using in the M550d xDrive and X5 M50d models, among others.
The system employs one smaller turbocharger and two larger ones. The smaller spools up more quickly at lower rpms, delivering an initial power boost that carries smoothly into the second and third larger units.
Although the horsepower ratings arenít certain yet, the new system is expected to boost the 911 Turbo from 495 to 525 horsepower, which is quite close to the 530 hp 911 Turbo S.
Porsche is currently completing testing on the tri-turbo setup inside their 991, though further details canít be that far off given that itís slated for the 2013 model year.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:38 AM   #2
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um, so how is this going to work? exhaust from both sides plumbed into the smaller turbo and then split into the larger two? sounds overly complicated for what is probably a small gain.
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:51 PM   #3
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Hehehe. Reminds me of my Mach3 razor.
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:54 PM   #4
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Seems to me this is opening up more and more potential problems with the additional complexity. Tuning for smooth power delivery has to be a pain in the rear too. I'd be terrified to buy any of the new tri-turbo setups used in 3-5 years...

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Hehehe. Reminds me of my Mach3 razor.
Seriously.
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:05 PM   #5
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Yeah you guys are probably right...the engineers at Porsche are idiots. What do they know about designing engines?
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by drummerboy827 View Post
Yeah you guys are probably right...the engineers at Porsche are idiots. What do they know about designing engines?
No one said they were idiots - it seems like a lot of complexity, but if your name is Porsche, there's not a lot you can't do with enough profits...
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:22 PM   #7
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Not sure what the expected gains are from something like this, or the expected repair intervals... But I'm happy to see more models coming out on the new 911 chassis! Now we need an RS package plz.
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:23 PM   #8
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The old sequential turbo setup in the FD RX7 wasn't very reliable and this will be much more complex. I'm sure when it's working right the car will be a beast but IMO they will be used cars to avoid.
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Old 01-28-2012, 04:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
The old sequential turbo setup in the FD RX7 wasn't very reliable and this will be much more complex. I'm sure when it's working right the car will be a beast but IMO they will be used cars to avoid.
In defense, my R1's sequential twins are still fully functional without rebuilding or replacing any of the components so far... It's been about 20 years now
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Old 01-28-2012, 05:05 PM   #10
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Computer and turbo tech has moved forward quite a bit. Like they said, this isn't the first car with 3 turbos.

I think that the increased flexibility in powertrains is basically getting rid of an engine's "character". Most motors had a weak point, either inability to rev, or soft down low, then when you felt the hit of power, it was the fun point of a car. Now with variable timing/turbos/etc there aren't any soft spots to feel power come on. Modern engines are worse by being better.
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Old 01-28-2012, 06:03 PM   #11
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We need more information on how the system works. There are a lot of ways to do multiple/sequential turbos. The regular BMW diesels use compound turbos where one flows into the other.

So this isn't going to use an electric compressor of some sort?
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Old 01-28-2012, 09:44 PM   #12
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Very interesting. Porsche is really upping the tech ante lately.

Nick
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:32 PM   #13
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Gonna have a hard time even finding the engine with that many turbos.

alt, compressor, PS pump, compressor, a/c compressor, compressor, turbineturbineturbine, and PIPES EVERYWHERE.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:33 PM   #14
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I think Porsche is innovative in delivering new tech and the 3.8 H6 will need it to stay competitive in the horse power wars.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:36 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
Gonna have a hard time even finding the engine with that many turbos.

alt, compressor, PS pump, compressor, a/c compressor, compressor, turbineturbineturbine, and PIPES EVERYWHERE.
Well that's from home made turbo kits.

Something engineered for such purpose will be unique and efficient.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
Not sure what the expected gains are from something like this, or the expected repair intervals... But I'm happy to see more models coming out on the new 911 chassis! Now we need an RS package plz.
Oh, all you need to do is wait for the final 2 years of this chassis and you will have every RSR Sport S Targa Cup Spyder version you can imagine
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Old 01-29-2012, 09:09 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
Well that's from home made turbo kits.

Something engineered for such purpose will be unique and efficient.
There is a minimum number of turbos and piping you can use for a tri-turbo engine. The engine will have turbos and pipes everywhere because there is no other option.

I'm not saying it's going to be a bad engine, just that it will look like the big diesel gensets that have turbos all over them like warts.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
There is a minimum number of turbos and piping you can use for a tri-turbo engine. The engine will have turbos and pipes everywhere because there is no other option.

I'm not saying it's going to be a bad engine, just that it will look like the big diesel gensets that have turbos all over them like warts.
They could be combining a bunch of stuff. The alternator and starter could be combined in the same unit for example, for purposes of start/stop technology. The power steering could be electric. One of the three turbos could be combined in a physical unit with an air-to-water intercooler. Turbo manifolds could be integrated into the cylinder heads. You really should check out what the OEM's are doing now to save space and weight. They have more resources and flexibility than an aftermarket turbo kit manufacturer.

Remember they have to make it fit and they have to meet targets for NVH, emissions, and fuel economy.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:49 AM   #19
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BMWs M division, BMW Gmbh, Porsche and audi will all have tri-turbo set ups in there future line up, 3-5 years later Japanese car makers will follow suit, as always..
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
There is a minimum number of turbos and piping you can use for a tri-turbo engine. The engine will have turbos and pipes everywhere because there is no other option.

I'm not saying it's going to be a bad engine, just that it will look like the big diesel gensets that have turbos all over them like warts.
That's when think like a tuner/mechanic.

Not a engineer...
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:42 PM   #21
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Love the styling on this car.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
That's when think like a tuner/mechanic.

Not a engineer...
OK, first off; you guys suck at jokes. Jeesus.

Second; yes, you can do all kinds of concatenating to make a simple layout. You still need three turbos and the piping between them, the intake, and the exhaust. This is non-negotiable whether the piping is in the form of pipe or a complex casting...

Third; I am an engineer, i know how to think like one.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:51 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Derbagger View Post
Computer and turbo tech has moved forward quite a bit. Like they said, this isn't the first car with 3 turbos.

I think that the increased flexibility in powertrains is basically getting rid of an engine's "character". Most motors had a weak point, either inability to rev, or soft down low, then when you felt the hit of power, it was the fun point of a car. Now with variable timing/turbos/etc there aren't any soft spots to feel power come on. Modern engines are worse by being better.
You're right...who in their right mind would want a modern engine that has a flat torque curve for instant throttle response at any RPM?

Here's a dyno graph of a 20+ year old naturally aspirated engine:

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj...b5xmo1_500.jpg

Ignoring the peak power, notice how the torque only varies a total of 20% from 1500RPM to 7500RPM. [sarcasm]Obviously, it must not be a fun car to drive - having a flat torque giving you punch at any RPM? HA, what were those idiots at BMW thinking when they designed the engine for the McLaren F1...[/sarcasm]

And here's one from ford:

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblo...t-4-torque.jpg

[sarcasm]Again, freaking idiots for designing an engine with power available at any RPM.[/sarcasm]
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spin1200 View Post
BMWs M division, BMW Gmbh, Porsche and audi will all have tri-turbo set ups in there future line up, 3-5 years later Japanese car makers will follow suit, as always..
I don't know if the Japanese will do this, unless they switch back to inline-sixes. Wouldn't tri-turbos be a nightmare for V-configuarions anyway?
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drummerboy827 View Post
Yeah you guys are probably right...the engineers at Porsche are idiots. What do they know about designing engines?
Missed my point. I'm in awe of Porsche and BMW engineering but that really doesn't have a lot to do with reliability and maintenance intervals.
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