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Old 01-28-2012, 11:50 AM   #1
dobie0791
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Default California passes landmark rules to curb auto emissions

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_19840270

California. How can you mandate what will be sold? Maybe this is a way to finally get the Volt selling.




California passes landmark rules to curb auto emissions

By Paul Rogers
progers@mercurynews.com
Posted: 01/27/2012 09:40:11 PM PST
Updated: 01/27/2012 10:24:48 PM PST

Transforming the next decade of America's auto industry, the California Air Resources Board on Friday approved historic new rules that require 15 percent of new cars sold in California by 2025 run on electricity, hydrogen or other systems producing little or no smog.

The board, meeting in Los Angeles, voted 9-0 to approve the package of "advanced clean car rules."

The rules also require automakers to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 50 percent on all new vehicles by 2025 and tailpipe emissions of soot and smog by roughly 75 percent over the same time period.

The greenhouse rules are nearly identical to new national rules being developed by the Obama administration -- and will result in new cars averaging 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025, double today's fleet average for new cars.

"If you talk to anybody, they wish they could drive more efficient cars with less pollution," said Santa Clara County Supervisor Ken Yeager, an air board member.

"People are spending way too much for gas, and they wish they didn't have to spend as much," he said. "The fact we are going to change what consumers can buy and what they can drive -- which is really what they want -- is one of the most important things we are doing."

Despite the changes for gasoline and diesel vehicles, the provisions that gained the most attention will force every major automaker, starting in 2018, to increase in showrooms the number of electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid
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vehicles along with some hydrogen-fuel-cell vehicles.

Cut smog-forming emissions 75 percent from new cars
Cut greenhouse gas emissions 50 percent from new cars
Require 15 percent of new cars sold in California be either electric, plug-in hybrid or fuel-cell
Mirror federal standards that will result in the fleet average for new cars to reach 54.5 mpg

Source: California Air Resources Board
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:35 PM   #2
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When can we just claim California is no longer part of the U.S.?

California... Not... Even... ONCE.
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:41 PM   #3
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Californication is what they want for themselves. Don't feel sorry for them as they also demand the same for you regardless of where or what you need for transportation.
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Old 01-28-2012, 03:50 PM   #4
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That quote where the stupid ******* politician speaks for every person in the whole state as EVERYBODY wants better efficiency just ticked me off. Who the hell do they think they are ? Piss on that state.

Only a state as freaking dumb as California who has rolling black outs every year because they do not have enough electricity would mandate 15% electric car fleet. Mind boggling stupid people live there. Can we just get rid of those freaks
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:04 PM   #5
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This quote from Santa Clara County Supervisor Ken Yeager, an air board member is classic:

"The fact we are going to change what consumers can buy and what they can drive -- which is really what they want -- is one of the most important things we are doing."



If it is what the consumer wants, why would there need to be a mandate at all?

Moderators, I did not see Avanti R5 had posted a different article of this same news. Sorry, please delete or combine this thread.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:13 AM   #6
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I live in California, I'm not worried. This isn't going to fly.
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:57 AM   #7
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All the car manufacturers that sell in the US should get together and uniformly not sell cars that meet California specific laws. Screw one state influencing the rest of the union.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by design1stcode2nd View Post
All the car manufacturers that sell in the US should get together and uniformly not sell cars that meet California specific laws. Screw one state influencing the rest of the union.
That would work if California didn't compose a good chunk of the U.S. market.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:13 PM   #9
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I live in California and I consider it a sinking ship. Each year they talk about spending more towards social programs, higher taxes, and choking businesses with more regulations. Just Google “Businesses Leaving” or “Companies Leaving”, the first thing that pops up is California. A good friend of mine who is a licensed contractor really can’t stand California. He has different lifts and machines that have an auxiliary diesel motor. This year he is required to replace the motors in each machine with a newer diesel motors or purchase new “cleaner” diesel ran machine. What most contractors are doing is selling the machines out of state and buying newer ones since that are cheaper than a complete retro fit of the old equipment.

Btw, the budget this year sounds like we are going to tax the rich even more and spend more towards schools. Say good bye to the upper class if this goes through. Sooner or later California is going to be the next Mexico. It’s not a revenue problem but a spending problem.

Check out some of these articles:

Businesses Leaving
http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/2010/09/7861-california-business-exodus-now-triple-last-years-rate/

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/c...-business.html
http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/...ord-numbers-2/

2012 Diesel Smog Info
http://www.ehow.com/list_6008671_cal...mog-rules.html
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/onrdiesel.htm - ARB should be shut down.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by dobie0791 View Post
Require 15 percent of new cars sold in California be either electric, plug-in hybrid or fuel-cell
How is this really going to work? Are they going to have a constantly running total that shows how many of each type are sold and if they are only at 10% of new cars as electric do they forbid sales of other car types until more electrics are sold? I mean, there is good intentioned (higher MPG) and then there is insane. If no car company is offering electric, plug-in hybrid or fuel cell cars in CA, does that mean no gas cars can be sold?
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:31 PM   #11
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How is this really going to work? Are they going to have a constantly running total that shows how many of each type are sold and if they are only at 10% of new cars as electric do they forbid sales of other car types until more electrics are sold? I mean, there is good intentioned (higher MPG) and then there is insane. If no car company is offering electric, plug-in hybrid or fuel cell cars in CA, does that mean no gas cars can be sold?
lol, who will get fined if the percentage of cars purchased were only 14% in that category?
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:31 PM   #12
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Anyone else from California? Ever listen to Armstrong and Getty in the morning? Remember when Greece’s economy hit the fan? Well Armstrong and Getty broke down their economy and were shocked because California resembled a lot of their economy. I can’t remember the exact numbers but Greece had more than half (around 60%) of the population working for the Government because of the social programs since they needed someone to process and track all the programs. Somewhere around 20% lived off the social programs and the other 20% were private industry workers. Greece was into their eye balls in debt. You don’t spend your way out of debt, so they made a huge decision to cut majority of social programs. Cutting programs means you are cutting government position since they are no longer needed. What happened were you had the leeches of the country pissed because they aren’t getting their free hand outs and a group of pissed off ex government workers who were laid off. That is what they are claiming lead to the mass riots in Greece.

Now Armstrong and Getty broke it down and realized California is almost in the same economic state. It’s going to get real ugly eventually since I believe California is painting itself into a corner financially. I wish I could afford to leave California. Once I get my BA degree next year I am going to look to leave but honestly haven’t put much thought about where I would go. I like Arizona and I hear Colorado is nice.

Last edited by Spike_916; 01-30-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
That quote where the stupid ******* politician speaks for every person in the whole state as EVERYBODY wants better efficiency just ticked me off. Who the hell do they think they are ? Piss on that state.

Only a state as freaking dumb as California who has rolling black outs every year because they do not have enough electricity would mandate 15% electric car fleet. Mind boggling stupid people live there. Can we just get rid of those freaks

What rolling blackouts every year? That was over ten years ago. And it was caused by market manipulations and illegal shutdowns of pipelines by douchebags in TEXAS. Oh look, you're from Texas

Stop being such a sensationalist, 2025 is a long way away and anything can happen by then. The intent is to light a fire under the car company asses to look for alternative solutions, it's not like this is going to take affect tomorrow.
And really, if you don't like it, don't move here. In the mean time S T F U !
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:00 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mopho View Post
What rolling blackouts every year? That was over ten years ago. And it was caused by market manipulations and illegal shutdowns of pipelines by douchebags in TEXAS. Oh look, you're from Texas

Stop being such a sensationalist, 2025 is a long way away and anything can happen by then. The intent is to light a fire under the car company asses to look for alternative solutions, it's not like this is going to take affect tomorrow.
And really, if you don't like it, don't move here. In the mean time S T F U !
and while I hate requiring regulation to require innovation in that aspect... it seems to be the only way to get Auto OEMs to move in that direction.

I'm opening a massive can of worms here, but I feel that the recent CAFE requirements and the massive jump in gas mileage (through technology implementation) are closely related.
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
and while I hate requiring regulation to require innovation in that aspect... it seems to be the only way to get Auto OEMs to move in that direction.

I'm opening a massive can of worms here, but I feel that the recent CAFE requirements and the massive jump in gas mileage (through technology implementation) are closely related.
I think the high gas prices are what's doing it. People actually want good fuel efficiency. If the government wanted more efficient cars, they should raise gas taxes and offer offsetting subsidies for clean electricity.
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Spike_916 View Post
You don’t spend your way out of debt, so they made a huge decision to cut majority of social programs.
For now, our government thinks you can...
Quote:
Cutting programs means you are cutting government position since they are no longer needed. What happened were you had the leeches of the country pissed because they aren’t getting their free hand outs and a group of pissed off ex government workers who were laid off. That is what they are claiming lead to the mass riots in Greece.
sounds familiar. This will be happening as soon as we hit our debt ceiling AGAIN in 2 yrs.

Quote:
Now Armstrong and Getty broke it down and realized California is almost in the same economic state. It’s going to get real ugly eventually since I believe California is painting itself into a corner financially.
California is only the start, they are a foresight on whats to come if the american public doesn't change their thoughts on entitlement. Welcome to the US, modern day Rome.
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:51 PM   #17
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I think the high gas prices are what's doing it. People actually want good fuel efficiency. If the government wanted more efficient cars, they should raise gas taxes and offer offsetting subsidies for clean electricity.
Or they could dish out some science project funds to this issue. There are tons of pointless research programs out there that never come to fruition, yet the gov't funds them because its what they want and no scientist is going to play by economic rules (develop at your own cost for high risk high returns, and end up failing and losing everything) so we have the gov't provide grants instead.
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Old 01-30-2012, 01:58 PM   #18
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sounds familiar. This will be happening as soon as we hit our debt ceiling AGAIN in 2 yrs.
My favorite analogy about the debt ceiling is this:

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Old 01-30-2012, 02:24 PM   #19
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I had a class in automotive engineering a couple of years ago in school. The teacher was in the R&D dept for a major automotive manufacturer. He said that every manufacturer could up mileage by 25% within 2 years. But they wouldn't.

If they did, they would have collectively blown their developmental loads and wouldn't be able to keep up with upcoming future requirements and would have to pay penalties. Therefore, they will only release the advances required by law.

Yay for government!
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:44 PM   #20
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I had a class in automotive engineering a couple of years ago in school. The teacher was in the R&D dept for a major automotive manufacturer. He said that every manufacturer could up mileage by 25% within 2 years. But they wouldn't.

If they did, they would have collectively blown their developmental loads and wouldn't be able to keep up with upcoming future requirements and would have to pay penalties. Therefore, they will only release the advances required by law.

Yay for government!
You will have to explain this part. My interpretation (of the current "MPG requirement law") is that you have to reach Xmpg by 2025. Not achieve x% improvement each year till 2025.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:52 PM   #21
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What rolling blackouts every year? That was over ten years ago. And it was caused by market manipulations and illegal shutdowns of pipelines by douchebags in TEXAS. Oh look, you're from Texas

Stop being such a sensationalist, 2025 is a long way away and anything can happen by then. The intent is to light a fire under the car company asses to look for alternative solutions, it's not like this is going to take affect tomorrow.
And really, if you don't like it, don't move here. In the mean time S T F U !
****? Really, no I think I will stay here.
SCIC thug mentality right there for you!

I used to live there and quickly moved out to a more successful state where people are actually getting hired! (I know crazy concept)

Back in 2000 when I was there at Huntington beach we had rolling brown outs and black outs. It was stipulated as to why it happened, but was never confirmed, but that state imports a huge percentage of its energy.

California in general is a recipe for fail surrounded by beautiful scenery.
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Old 01-30-2012, 02:57 PM   #22
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You will have to explain this part. My interpretation (of the current "MPG requirement law") is that you have to reach Xmpg by 2025. Not achieve x% improvement each year till 2025.
I think the statement is that if they up their fleet MPG by 25% and then the government says, cool, now you have to raise it 5% more in 5 years, the car manufacturers would be screwed. Not sure I really believe that, but then again, I'm not sure that consumers, at least not American consumers, would be willing to drive the cars that manufacturers produced if the government decided on some 100 mpg fleet standard. I mean, how many people own 4WD vehicles that never leave their 2WD setting in parts of the US that can't use weather as an excuse.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:04 PM   #23
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Back in 2000 when I was there at Huntington beach we had rolling brown outs and black outs. It was stipulated as to why it happened, but was never confirmed, but that state imports a huge percentage of its energy.
Well, just like you said, that was 2000... more than a decade ago.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:10 PM   #24
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You will have to explain this part. My interpretation (of the current "MPG requirement law") is that you have to reach Xmpg by 2025. Not achieve x% improvement each year till 2025.
You must consider that not only are manufacturers building cars for the US government, but they are also building cars that must meet requirements in the individual states (like California we've been discussing) as well as other nations.

It's in their best interests to do the minimum required and to evaluate each restriction in regards to exiting a market based on R&D costs. Consider the few examples of 49 state legal cars developed over the years. Dodge pickup with the Viper V10 to name one example. It never came to California because it wasn't worth developing for the market. Bros be damned.

Edit: Also consider, as stated above, that manufacturers want to offer a comparable product with increased mileage. Not a fleet of leafs and volts that few will want to buy. California is a huge state with poor public transportation options both state wide and in major cities. Driving is necessity for most people, and they want to choose. Not have smart cars shoved down their throats.
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:12 PM   #25
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Really? I could've sworn I've seen the Ram SRT-10s here (though not a huge quantity) before.
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