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Old 03-24-2013, 03:40 PM   #1
bushflyr
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Default Upgrade AP or Buy a Laptop for Logging?

I'm torn. I currently have a V1 AP, so no logging feature. My car is mostly running OK but has a really weird misfire on boost that I need to do some logging to figure out how to fix. I have a Mac desktop, but no laptop and no windows machine. My two options are upgrade to the new AP or just buy a laptop. Probably an Ultrabook in the $700 range. So, the computer is a little more expensive, but a ton more usable. The AP is cheaper, and well, cheaper.

Which way would you go for logging and why?
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:00 PM   #2
ProfessWRX
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Originally Posted by bushflyr View Post
I'm torn. I currently have a V1 AP, so no logging feature. My car is mostly running OK but has a really weird misfire on boost that I need to do some logging to figure out how to fix. I have a Mac desktop, but no laptop and no windows machine. My two options are upgrade to the new AP or just buy a laptop. Probably an Ultrabook in the $700 range. So, the computer is a little more expensive, but a ton more usable. The AP is cheaper, and well, cheaper.

Which way would you go for logging and why?
Buy a used netbook and a tactrix cable. I use an Acer aspire for all the cars I tune. It was $300 New 3 or 4 years ago.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:48 PM   #3
Black94Snake
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Buy a used netbook and a tactrix cable. I use an Acer aspire for all the cars I tune. It was $300 New 3 or 4 years ago.
I agree with this one here. I use an MSI Wind to tune with. The biggest advantage to open source tuning, is that there are members here on the forum that are willing to make changes to your rom FOR YOU... And FREE.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:52 PM   #4
Uncle Scotty
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the reason i like the ap is that their 'race tuner' or whatever they are calling their tuning software...allows tuning realtime, on the fly

you get your map close and just tweek it until ya got it right and then flash it....no stopping and green connectors and starting and all that bs

and the software is quite powerful
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:56 PM   #5
ProfessWRX
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the reason i like the ap is that their 'race tuner' or whatever they are calling their tuning software...allows tuning realtime, on the fly

you get your map close and just tweek it until ya got it right and then flash it....no stopping and green connectors and starting and all that bs

and the software is quite powerful
I'd love to have that. But I don't need it and I went for cheap. $120 for the tactrix was all I needed.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:50 PM   #6
ccbremech
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For me it all comes down to time and patience. If you have the time, buy a laptop and then you can make changes to. If you don't have the time or patience go with an AP due to its simplicity. Just my 0.02
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:17 PM   #7
Black94Snake
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....no stopping and green connectors and starting and all that
See, I still don't see why people have such a hard time with the green connectors. Take a ride to your local radio shack and buy a small switch. Run two wires down to the green connectors and be done with it. Why crawl up under the dash when you only need to flip a switch?

As for tuning real time, I say its a crock of crap. Sure its a nice feature, but who is really looking at their computer while they are driving? The ONLY way that the realtime tuning would be handy is for a tuner, going out for a ride with the cars owner. Even when I had my Accessport, I would still log then pull over. After reviewing my log and making tweaks, i'd just reflash. It doesn't take much time if the bit check sees an insignificant difference in the two roms.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:42 PM   #8
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See, I still don't see why people have such a hard time with the green connectors. Take a ride to your local radio shack and buy a small switch. Run two wires down to the green connectors and be done with it. Why crawl up under the dash when you only need to flip a switch?

As for tuning real time, I say its a crock of crap. Sure its a nice feature, but who is really looking at their computer while they are driving? The ONLY way that the realtime tuning would be handy is for a tuner, going out for a ride with the cars owner. Even when I had my Accessport, I would still log then pull over. After reviewing my log and making tweaks, i'd just reflash. It doesn't take much time if the bit check sees an insignificant difference in the two roms.
I just loaded a tune and had to spend literally 3 entire seconds with the green connectors. I could do so much with my life if I could skip that step. And I agree with what you said other than cruising your totally right. To me it's more of a novelty than anything worth thinking about.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:21 AM   #9
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Get both, get an old used laptop. If you dont have one already then you only need it for your car. It can be old as dirt and slower than mollasses, and had for under 100 bucks. ATR software requires very little in terms of speed, memory, and hard drive space.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushflyr View Post
I'm torn. I currently have a V1 AP, so no logging feature. My car is mostly running OK but has a really weird misfire on boost that I need to do some logging to figure out how to fix. I have a Mac desktop, but no laptop and no windows machine. My two options are upgrade to the new AP or just buy a laptop. Probably an Ultrabook in the $700 range. So, the computer is a little more expensive, but a ton more usable. The AP is cheaper, and well, cheaper.

Which way would you go for logging and why?
Hi there. We actually offer a $200 trade-in credit for the v1 Accessport (working or not) when you trade it in to purchase the v2 Accessport directly through us. So, the price for the v2 Accessport for 02-05 WRX would be $395 (less any applicable shipping/tax) if you were to trade the v1 Accessport in ($595-$200). Details here:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/AccessPort...in-s/70459.htm

If you are currently using our off-the-shelf (OTS) maps with the v1, the v2 also includes new ground-up revised OTS maps for the 02-05 WRX that are much more consistent. The v2 Accessport, of course, also has data logging from the device itself, live data ("gauge") monitoring - select from over 100 parameters, launch control adjustable real-time from Accessport, and more.

As far as data logging, it is very easy to keep the Accessport in your car (vs. a laptop). The Accessport has no batteries - runs off the car's power when you plug it in to the OBD port. The v2 Accessport is also smaller than the v1 (fits in the palm of your hand) and is very easy to store in the glove box or other places in the car, or put it your pocket to take it with you.

The Accessport Manager software will work with Max OSX 10.5 or 10.6 or greater (on Intel machines only) and, of course, XP/Win Vista/7/8 on PCs. Important to check that as you will need to run the Accessport Manager software to pull off the logs from the Accessport. If you are not sure, you can download the software from the following link, install and at least run it to make sure (will not work with v1 but you can make sure it runs on your Mac):
http://www.cobbtuning.com/AccessPORT...ort/ap-manager

As far as your misfire issue, that is going to be a mechanical problem (generally speaking). If you can post details of all your mods, the history of your car (bought it used, etc. - other problems in the past), and the map you are running, we can go over some common problem areas that cause misfires.

Bill
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:15 PM   #11
bushflyr
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Thanks for the info. I am leaning towards trading up my AP. It currently is protuned.

Cliff notes of my issue:

I have a VF39, Pinks, STi TMIC, gutted up, Grimmspeed EBCS, Scoobysport down, Stromung cat back.

I was running a Cobb OTS VF39 map for years (without the EBCS), I finally got protuned when I added the EBCS.

We could only load the realtime map over the OTS base map when I got tuned due to me forgetting the power cord for the AP.

I then managed to drain my battery enough to dump the realtime map without realizing it. So I ran with the OTS base map for a few days. The only part not accounted for in the OTS map was the EBCS.

I reflashed the base protune and the realtime protune when I figured it out, but the car had what felt like an all cylinder misfire when coming up on full boost. Flashing CEL, no stored code, and a fairly violent buck. It runs OK on part throttle, but feels down on power, maybe ~25% at a guess.

I replaced the plugs (pic below) and it's slightly better, but still not right. The plugs had been in for 30-40k and it was running lean on the OTS map according to the tuner so the plug appearance may or may not be entirely due to the event.



I guess the question would then be what did I damage by running the Cobb OTS map with the Grimm EBCS?
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
See, I still don't see why people have such a hard time with the green connectors. Take a ride to your local radio shack and buy a small switch. Run two wires down to the green connectors and be done with it. Why crawl up under the dash when you only need to flip a switch?

As for tuning real time, I say its a crock of crap. Sure its a nice feature, but who is really looking at their computer while they are driving? The ONLY way that the realtime tuning would be handy is for a tuner, going out for a ride with the cars owner. Even when I had my Accessport, I would still log then pull over. After reviewing my log and making tweaks, i'd just reflash. It doesn't take much time if the bit check sees an insignificant difference in the two roms.


i guess you really dont understand the whole issue and dont understand why doing what you are doing is a waste of time

i dont
and real time tuning is way more than you think it is

but anyway....those who just keep on keepin on blindly wont ever see the forest for the trees anyway
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:38 AM   #13
Black94Snake
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Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post



i guess you really dont understand the whole issue and dont understand why doing what you are doing is a waste of time

i dont
and real time tuning is way more than you think it is

but anyway....those who just keep on keepin on blindly wont ever see the forest for the trees anyway
Scotty... You are the only one around here who is truly full of ****. I don't really care if my tuning method is a waste of time, because I take my time to get it right. I'm not doing this to make money. I'll plug my computer into my car and take a ride to work. Datalogging the whole way there. Then ill do the same thing on my way home. Once I'm home and comfortable ill review my logs, make changes and go reflash my car.

Does my tuning method take a while? Yea, I guess so. Do I care? Not even a little bit. Just like I didn't care when your car got repo'd.

And all of this doesn't even point out the fact that you can't do realtime tuning without a computer in the car, so you can't argue your point. Op doesn't have a laptop to use, so you are recommending the most expensive method for him.

You need to retire, old man.

Last edited by Black94Snake; 03-27-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:10 AM   #14
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by bushflyr View Post
Thanks for the info. I am leaning towards trading up my AP. It currently is protuned.

Cliff notes of my issue:

I have a VF39, Pinks, STi TMIC, gutted up, Grimmspeed EBCS, Scoobysport down, Stromung cat back.

I was running a Cobb OTS VF39 map for years (without the EBCS), I finally got protuned when I added the EBCS.

We could only load the realtime map over the OTS base map when I got tuned due to me forgetting the power cord for the AP.

I then managed to drain my battery enough to dump the realtime map without realizing it. So I ran with the OTS base map for a few days. The only part not accounted for in the OTS map was the EBCS.

I reflashed the base protune and the realtime protune when I figured it out, but the car had what felt like an all cylinder misfire when coming up on full boost. Flashing CEL, no stored code, and a fairly violent buck. It runs OK on part throttle, but feels down on power, maybe ~25% at a guess.

I replaced the plugs (pic below) and it's slightly better, but still not right. The plugs had been in for 30-40k and it was running lean on the OTS map according to the tuner so the plug appearance may or may not be entirely due to the event.

I guess the question would then be what did I damage by running the Cobb OTS map with the Grimm EBCS?
You would likely overboost at WOT if running the 3-port BCS with our OTS map. Though that can cause problems in and of itself, it should have been obvious if you severely overboosted as you would have hit the fuel cut limit at some point. How did the car run after you thought that the battery had been drained?

The concern here is that all your problems seem to have started when you reflashed your protune for the first time. You had not previously reflashed it nor had it been tested on the car as reflash (if I understand correctly). The realtime protune could have been designed given that the OTS stage 3 map would be used as the reflash, but now that realtime tune is over the original reflash tune. Realtime maps are kind of like an override (over the base reflashed map) for the 10 or so most commonly tuned tables, but it doesn't include all the tables that could be potentially modified. So, when you run a different realtime map over a different base map, then you need to know what that combination is going to do, especially in the case of a protune since we don't know how that was set up and you left the shop with the tuner thinking that the tune would be realtime only, if I understand this correctly. This isn't an issue with the OTS maps (they are a known quantity) unless you try to realtime flash say a stage 3 map over a stage 2 map, for example.

If you have the stock BCS, I would try swapping that on and then reflash the OTS stage 3 map and see if the problems go away or not. That will tell you if this is a map issue (wrong protuned map or wrong combination of realtime vs. base). Usually, though, misfires are a mechanical issue - there would have to be a fairly severe problem with the map (or map combination) for it to cause misfires.

Bill
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:07 PM   #15
bushflyr
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Oddly enough I was not making target boost on the OTS map. I was only making about 1.2 bar when it should have been 1.5. That was what clued me in to the map being dumped.

The tuner is one of the best known and respected guys in the country, so I'm pretty certain he didn't make any rookie mistakes regarding the tables.

I too am leaning towards a mechanical problem, especially given how big a difference changing out the plugs made. I need to get some logs before trying to just throw parts at the issue till it goes away. The next step would probably be the O2 sensor, but given that those are half the cost of upgrading my AP, I'd rather log and increase the chances of the next part I replace fixing the problem.

Thanks for the insight, I really appreciate it.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:35 AM   #16
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Oddly enough I was not making target boost on the OTS map. I was only making about 1.2 bar when it should have been 1.5. That was what clued me in to the map being dumped.

The tuner is one of the best known and respected guys in the country, so I'm pretty certain he didn't make any rookie mistakes regarding the tables.

I too am leaning towards a mechanical problem, especially given how big a difference changing out the plugs made. I need to get some logs before trying to just throw parts at the issue till it goes away. The next step would probably be the O2 sensor, but given that those are half the cost of upgrading my AP, I'd rather log and increase the chances of the next part I replace fixing the problem.

Thanks for the insight, I really appreciate it.
I'm just suggesting that when you reflashed the map that it was something that was untested - a reflash changes more tables than a realtime flash. Your car left the shop with only a realtime flash. The base map that you have could have been the wrong version of the tuner's map or whatever - it was never put on there by the tuner to verify.

Bill
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:36 PM   #17
bushflyr
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OK, got some logging done. There is some knock correction going on, but not sure where to go from there. Continued in THIS THREAD.
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