Motor Trend on the 2014 WRX

[moonrider_99]

Originally Posted by a2cpc

This is the size Subaru should shoot for...

This is way too small. You would need another car for daily stuff and family hauling, and that's what is great about the current wrx: sports car like performance with daily utility.

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[Calamity Jesus]

Originally Posted by Eyeflyistheeye

A Veloster is ~2800 lbs.

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/veloster/specifications.aspx

I think you're thinking about the piggy GC.

I think his finger slipped when he went for the '2'. The GC doesn't weigh that much.

[XanRules]

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

I think his finger slipped when he went for the '2'. The GC doesn't weigh that much.

Yep. Wrong button.

[Snow Drift]

Originally Posted by moonrider_99

This is way too small. You would need another car for daily stuff and family hauling, and that's what is great about the current wrx: sports car like performance with daily utility.

That formula is going out the window. WRC and ERC/GRC competitiveness are the new formula. That requires small, light, short-wheel base.

Can't compete w/ Loeb and his tiny DS3 in the boats that we currently drive.

[lordgrinz]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

That formula is going out the window. WRC and ERC/GRC competitiveness are the new formula. That requires small, light, short-wheel base.

Can't compete w/ Loeb and his tiny DS3 in the boats that we currently drive.

Then it will be the biggest mistake Subaru could make, might as well kiss sales away. People need a two door car nowadays like they need a hole in the head, and if going that route, a 2 door WRX/STI would be on the bottom of the list of 2 doors cars out today.

[keepclam]

Originally Posted by heavyD

Hmm lets see. The WRX will be bigger and have AWD. I'm thinking that 3200 lbs is realistic at best. I don't think some of you realize just how small the BRZ is.

Originally Posted by gnomes01

Where did you read that it was going to be bigger?? All the reports I've seen said its going to have a shorter wheelbase and making it lighter. As far as the weight I know it is still going to be heavier because of the AWD but I can see between 2900 and 3100 an achievable goal.

I think heavyd meant that WRX will be bigger than BRZ, not that WRX will be bigger than it is now.

[moonrider_99]

Originally Posted by lordgrinz

Then it will be the biggest mistake Subaru could make, might as well kiss sales away. People need a two door car nowadays like they need a hole in the head, and if going that route, a 2 door WRX/STI would be on the bottom of the list of 2 doors cars out today.

Exactly. ^^^

[ONIMUSHA]

Originally Posted by Snow Drift

That formula is going out the window. WRC and ERC/GRC competitiveness are the new formula. That requires small, light, short-wheel base.

Can't compete w/ Loeb and his tiny DS3 in the boats that we currently drive.

Exactly.

Subaru has far too long catered to the literally "large" market in North America.

I like what Subaru is doing.

If you want a family mover, get the Impreza or whatever overweight grocery getter they offer.

If you want a mean machine, get the WRX STi.

Subaru has sacrificed performance to meet practicality long enough. Time for a change.

Attacking cars like the DS3 is going to require a big change at that.

[WRX4US]

Seems to me that perhaps Subaru could make everyone happy, by making a small wheelbase, lightweight 2 seater STI rally impersonator and a bigger more practical full blown XTI.

[ONIMUSHA]

Reduced size, awd and an electric supercharger really are really exciting. Reminds me of this little thing:

http://www.carfolio.com/specificatio...ar/?car=190091

But with a boxer engine, more power, a modern awd system, wider, and hopefully shorter.

[MattK]

It seems there is a segment of this discussion that is pooh-pooing the idea of a Fiesta sized WRX. I submit Subaru has already been there and done that and is perfectly capable of doing it again, although much much better than their first try.

Since I own a GC (2.5RS), will be purchasing a MY 14 car (or maybe MY 15 if there is somehting rumored to be worth waiting for ), and do not want anything much bigger than what I have now, I did some research. Sources: Subaru Tech Manual for MY 2000 2.5RS and Edmunds.com

Specification: GC 2.5RS 4DR///Fiesta 5DR
Length: 172.2"///160.1"
Width: 67.1"///66.8"
Height: 55.5"///58"
Front Leg Room (max): 43.1"///42.2"
Rear Leg Room (min): 32.5"///31.2"
Front Head Room: 39.2"///39.1"
Rear Head Room: 36.7"///37.2"
Front Shoulder Room: 52.6"///52.7"
Rear Shoulder Room: 51.8"///49.0"
Wheelbase: 99.2"///98"
Front Track Width: 57.9"///57.7"
Rear Track Width: 57.5"///57.7"
Road Clearance: 5.7"///Not Stated on Edmunds.com
Curb Weight: 2,800 lbs.///2,537 lbs

So given the discussion currently in progress, I submit that the next gen WRX/WRX STi will be based on the BRZ platform and will spec out very similar to the "Old School" GC chassis WRX and WRX/STi (as well as the current crop of road cars homologated for WRC - Citroen, Mini, Ford, etc.). I also predict it will have superior performance to the GC due to improvements in materials and chassis/suspension design, will of course get MUCH better gas mileage.

Fo all of you/us who have beenn pining for a "new" GC ever since the bugeyes came out in '02, be careful, we might be getting what we have been wishigng for all these years...

[stewb]

Originally Posted by lordgrinz

Then it will be the biggest mistake Subaru could make, might as well kiss sales away. People need a two door car nowadays like they need a hole in the head,...

The Impreza exists for people who "need" 4 or 5 doors. No one actually has "need" of an STI as a DD; it is instead a car one _wants_. If you're buying a vehicle based strictly on need, there are plenty of low-cost, practical choices. Granted, even being seen near what you're after might feel like a kick in the nuts, but at least the car would have a bunch of doors for you to open and close.

[gnomes01]

Originally Posted by ONIMUSHA

Exactly.

Subaru has far too long catered to the literally "large" market in North America.

I like what Subaru is doing.

If you want a family mover, get the Impreza or whatever overweight grocery getter they offer.

If you want a mean machine, get the WRX STi.

Subaru has sacrificed performance to meet practicality long enough. Time for a change.

Attacking cars like the DS3 is going to require a big change at that.

100% agree!!!

[stewb]

Originally Posted by ONIMUSHA

Exactly.

Subaru has far too long catered to the literally "large" market in North America.

I like what Subaru is doing.

If you want a family mover, get the Impreza or whatever overweight grocery getter they offer.

If you want a mean machine, get the WRX STi.

Subaru has sacrificed performance to meet practicality long enough. Time for a change.

Attacking cars like the DS3 is going to require a big change at that.

Agree with the sentiment but not the certainty about "what Subaru is doing" with the WRX and/or STI.

[WRX4US]

I don't buy cars strictly by need, and I doubt many really do. I do buy cars based on need first, and want second. I need a car with enough doors to open for all of it's occupants to enter and exit without having to have other occupants be inconvenienced by the necessity to egress into the elements and/or traffic, or be required to perform unnecessary gymnastic exercises, the dependence on which could have potentially fatal consequences.

[lordgrinz]

Originally Posted by stewb

The Impreza exists for people who "need" 4 or 5 doors. No one actually has "need" of an STI as a DD; it is instead a car one _wants_. If you're buying a vehicle based strictly on need, there are plenty of low-cost, practical choices. Granted, even being seen near what you're after might feel like a kick in the nuts, but at least the car would have a bunch of doors for you to open and close.

If I were looking for a 2 door rocket, the WRX/STI version wouldn't even be on my radar, or anyone else for that matter, there are much better 2 door choices out there. I just don't see the point. If the WRX/STI was a 2 door, I wouldn't even give it a second look.

[Stonebaru]

Originally Posted by lordgrinz

If I were looking for a 2 door rocket, the WRX/STI version wouldn't even be on my radar, or anyone else for that matter, there are much better 2 door choices out there. I just don't see the point. If the WRX/STI was a 2 door, I wouldn't even give it a second look.

Just for the sake of discussion, what "much better" 2 door choices are out there with AWD, turbo, and starting at $26K (assuming pricing stays the same AND the WRX will be a 2 door AND water will still be wet, etc etc etc)?

[lordgrinz]

Originally Posted by Stonebaru

Just for the sake of discussion, what "much better" 2 door choices are out there with AWD, turbo, and starting at $26K (assuming pricing stays the same AND the WRX will be a 2 door AND water will still be wet, etc etc etc)?

What need is there for AWD? Just buy a 2 door rear drive car, unless you now "need" things? It seems like you want the car to fit your "needs" now, not others.

[HipToBeSquare]

I don't need rear doors, and would rather have rear cargo room under a fastback hatch with fold down rear seats.

I would also rather have the lighter weight, and fewer component parts, and better aero characteristics of a sleeker, lower-roof coupe.

And I *need* to be able to look at a car I just spent a bunch of money on, without aesthetic revulsion.

I do need superior AWD capability to justify spending money on a new daily driver.

I have a RWD sports car already... I need a car that is superior, not just barely passable in the winter. We've been over these topics before, no need to re-hash them any more.

I want turbo or H6 power, backed by a manual gearbox, or automated clutch. Again... without that, maybe I don't really *need* to spend any more money.

Name the car that fits that criteria at or under 35K.

Nobody, that I know of EVER, has said that a 2 or 3 door WRX or STI possibility would ever preclude Subaru from also offering it with 4 or 5 doors as an alternate body style.

Nobody is saying that other people can't also have the alternate body style that already exists, because no one is calling for an existing body style to be cancelled, merely for an additional body style to be added.

[chanomatik]

Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare

Nobody, that I know of EVER, has said that a 2 or 3 door WRX or STI possibility would ever preclude Subaru from also offering it with 4 or 5 doors as an alternate body style.

Nobody is saying that other people can't also have the alternate body style that already exists, because no one is calling for an existing body style to be cancelled, merely for an additional body style to be added.

Something to agree with in case people don't usually agree with Hip and have him Ignored.

[Sub!eDr!ver]

I think we already have that:
Impreza = 4- or 5- door - Already available
WRX/STI = 3-door - Coming soon

Now if SOA would follow through on FHI's previous plans and offer an STI version of every model, everyone would be happier.

[WRX4US]

As has been previously posted, the added weight of rear doors in negligible. Seeing how previous STi's have had huge wings standing on their trunks, I have wonder just how much aerodynamic improvement actually comes from a fastback? I don't find the sight of passengers contorting their bodies just to ingress/egress, or an obviously silly design compromise the least bit attractive.

[HipToBeSquare]

Seems like a door with a window frame, and a window regulator, hinges, a separate door card, and separate weather seals, and latching hardware is not light. Seems like more structure for a door frame in the chassis is not light. A coupe door is heavier than a single sedan front door, but by less than the additional weight of another door behind it, and more structural steel in the side of the body. Doesn't seem like coupe variants of dual-body-style cars are tremendously heavier than their sedan counterparts, without some other consideration. Most drop a little weight in the transition. Especially if a coupe has frameless door glass, as more coupes do.

Coupes also have lower roofs, because they only have to count headroom once, for the front seat occupants, and can put the peak of the roof there. Sedans and other vehicles have to maintain a higher roofline arch, or a steeper windscreen angle and flatter roof, in order to maintain headroom for two rows. More material in the roof pillars for added length, more roof length overall, and larger frontal area, with possibly less Cd due to a more vertical angle, are negatives to overall weight, and overall aerodynamics.

Do you think a Corvette should be styled more like an Impala, just for kicks? of course not. Corvette is much sleeker, because it's body style format allows for it, without the need for additional interior passenger space practicality, and nobody expects a Corvette to seat 5 people, yet some people still buy Corvettes. Some people will still buy BRZs, just not ones who want more power and more traction, and a *slight* bit less interior claustrophobia for someone over 6" tall.

If I didn't care about AWD, I would probably be on the Genesis Coupe forum now, and wishing it had a lift back, rather than a tiny trunk lid. If Subaru produces WRX or STI that competes directly with Genesis coupe on size and power... plus the distinct advantage in the snow belt of having AWD, paired with a manual gearbox, and still 500+lbs lighter, and thousands less expensive than G37xS... That is what I would be talking about.


Nobody is saying that tandem side doors should be abolished, mind you. I am saying that some people don't need them, and prefer the alternative. There is no reason why Subaru can't offer both.


The coupe is my photoshop of a reversed version of the 4-door version. The 4-door is so coupe-ish as-is that the roofline didn't need to change... but they are both more sleek than an Impreza or Legacy current production sedan.

And Subaru Advanced Hybrid Tourer shows generally how it can be adapted to 5-door as well.



If you don't realize why the STI has a park bench of a wing, BECAUSE of the fact that the roof is so high, and drops off so sharply, then I am not sure what else to tell you.

The wing is huge because the wing element has to be that high to reach clean airflow. Laminar airflow separates at the back of the roof on a sharp sedan, or sharp vertical hatchback.

That is why 06-07 STI sedans had the vane above the rear window, as well... to force some of the laminar flow down across the rear glass, across the trunk, and under the wing, while air higher above the roof goes over the wing's airfoil.

With a fastback coupe, unlike a sedan or 2-door sedan-style coupe with a steeply angled rear window, (I believe the angle is somewhere around 27 degrees, IIRC) the laminar flow does not separate, but remains attached by fluidic surface tension. (like water drops stay adhered to the surfaces they are on, by surface tension. Air is a fluid just as liquids are, in terms of flow behavior) A wing on a fastback coupe, if needed at all, can be much lower, and interact with the laminar flow across the tail of the car, without significant eddie current turbulence in front of the wing.

Not only that, but it also presents a smaller tail surface area, with a tapered, more KAMM like flow pattern for trailing drag. The cleaner the laminar flow separation is at the final edge of the body, the less trailing drag. The more tail surface area, and the messier the transition from the body sides, bottom, and top, to the low pressure air space behind the vehicle... the more trailing drag the shape creates, no matter how sleek or slippery the frontal area Cd is.

Why do you think hybrid and electric cars seem to take on the shape that some of us wish that normal cars would have, like 5-door hatchback sedans? Prius, Volt, Insight, Tesla S and X, Fisker Karma... all of these vehicles have sleek aero shapes. Even the Prius V tries to have a little bit of a tapered tail, despite it trying to be a CUV.

Blunt, truncated, full cross-section tails are nasty for trailing aero drag. Sleeker shapes are better for that. Rain drops are formed by airflow around a small volume of water, and have conically tapered tails, they are not spherical, or hemispherical with a flat aft aspect.

Do you see aircraft with blunt truncated tails that are the full cross section of the fuselage? Not so often, and for a reason.

[spaceywilly]

^not sure who you were responding to with the discussion about hybrids but most hybrids have sharply cutoff tails to take advantage off the kamm effect.


even the 2 door Honda Insight had a fairly tall rear end which cut off sharply, not the low sloping rear you would expect a coupe to have



I'm not an fluid dynamics expert, but the people who designed these cars are and that's the shape they chose. So it would seem that for aerodynamics a high back that cuts off sharply is the best, and if you are going to have a high back anyways you may as well put 4 doors on it, which you can see is what they've done with every hybrid since. The Prius V and C are similarly Kammbacked, despite being larger and smaller versions of the Prius, and they all have 5 doors. So the conclustion that I draw from that is that the 5 door kammback profile is more aerodynamic than a 2/3 door fastback profile.


Also rain drops aren't shaped with a conical trailing edge, that is a common misconception. They are spherical up to a certain size and parachute shaped after that

[a2cpc]

It might not be a matter of need, but a matter of want.