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Old 02-07-2012, 01:13 PM   #1
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Default Bye Bye - Fisker

http://www.slashgear.com/fisker-fund...ayed-07212377/
Fisker funding frozen: Project Nina delayed

"Luxury eco car company Fisker has been forced to freeze work on its second vehicle, Project Nina, as well as make a total of 66 redundancies as government loans dry up. Fisker, which began delivering Karma plug-ins back in July 2011, faced renewed US government attention with its launch schedule delays, GigaOm reports, with the Department of Energy suspending a $528.7m loan agreed in 2009 back in May 2011.

The terms of the loan mandated certain milestones and timescales that Fisker needed to meet in order to claim each part of the cash, and with the shipping schedule not going according to plan there’s now a mandatory renegotiation. So far, Fisker says, it has received $193m of the total loan and is “renegotiating some terms of the DOE agreement” as well as continuing to “pursue alternative funding sources.”


It’s not the only recent bad news for Fisker Automotive. The company was forced to recall 239 Karma cars earlier this year, after battery issues spotted in December became more widespread.


Fisker had originally planned to push out Project Nina in 2012, though now says it will focus on the Karma this year and return to the second model at a later point, timescale unspecified. The company has already raised around $850m in private equity funding."
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:17 PM   #2
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How about "Bye Bye - Misleading Thread Title"??
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:21 PM   #3
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^Can't say I, or many people out there, would miss them in any way if it was "bye, bye"........Just think about how many other areas that money could be spent on.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:24 PM   #4
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They were loans.. not grants. If you want the US government to get their money back you should be cheering Fisker, not jeering them.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:44 PM   #5
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If they were unsecured loans, then they might as well be grants, gifts, or giveaways.

Government loans make people think as you do, that there is a likelihood of getting the money back... when the government rarely operates the way the surface language appears to suggest.

Solyndra was "loans", too, IIRC... and that is GONE, and nobody even knows where.

Most of the auto bail-outs were unsecured loans, which were never meant, or expected to be paid back... but the public heard the word "loan".

Meanwhile the bond holders, who actually DID have standing and expectations of claim during bankruptcy, were tossed aside like nothing. Especially Chrysler, that was handed over to Fiat and the Government/union interests, while the bond-holders got pennies on the dollar, if ANYTHING, when they were supposed to be first in line. A bond is secured by definition, and is not the same thing as a stock.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
If they were unsecured loans, then they might as well be grants, gifts, or giveaways.

Government loans make people think as you do, that there is a likelihood of getting the money back... when the government rarely operates the way the surface language appears to suggest.

Solyndra was "loans", too, IIRC... and that is GONE, and nobody even knows where.

Most of the auto bail-outs were unsecured loans, which were never meant, or expected to be paid back... but the public heard the word "loan".

Meanwhile the bond holders, who actually DID have standing and expectations of claim during bankruptcy, were tossed aside like nothing. Especially Chrysler, that was handed over to Fiat and the Government/union interests, while the bond-holders got pennies on the dollar, if ANYTHING, when they were supposed to be first in line. A bond is secured by definition, and is not the same thing as a stock.


Bolded parts are incorrect.

Solyndra money was spent on capex needed to build facilities. I'm not arguing that it's largely irrecoverable.

The Auto loans were secured and were meant to be paid back. Treasury still owns GM stock which was swapped for the debt.

Bonds are not secured unless specifically stated (which is rare). They do have a higher priority than stock. In this case stockholders got even less than the bondholders.

As for the Chrysler situation. The LOAN holders were secured. Govt thuggery prevailed and the majority of the loan holders agreed to being subordinated by the other stakeholders.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:37 PM   #7
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Did anyone think that:

a. Fisker was actually going to make good on the milestones/timescales in order to qualify for the full amounts of the loans.

b. If they, by some miracle, made good on the milestones/timescales they would actually be able to repay half-a-billion dollars in loans back to the government this century?
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:44 PM   #8
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I still believe that GM, Chrysler and Ford (who took low-interest loans) needed some kind of help since the Japanese, German and Korean governments have been subsidizing their car makers as well. Giving a big stake to the unions wasn't the way to do it though.

However, Fisker was doomed to fail from the start. Who has the money to buy a six-digit car from an unknown maker? Stupid for our government to give them a nickel of aid.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:11 PM   #9
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Bolded parts are incorrect.

Solyndra money was spent on capex needed to build facilities. I'm not arguing that it's largely irrecoverable.

The Auto loans were secured and were meant to be paid back. Treasury still owns GM stock which was swapped for the debt.

Bonds are not secured unless specifically stated (which is rare). They do have a higher priority than stock. In this case stockholders got even less than the bondholders.

As for the Chrysler situation. The LOAN holders were secured. Govt thuggery prevailed and the majority of the loan holders agreed to being subordinated by the other stakeholders.
Solyndra was known to have a bad business plan, and costs FAR over the market price of the product. I had heard that most imported solar panels sell for 3$ a unit, and Solyndra's costs would have been at least 6$ a unit. Why would anyone give a business like that the amount of taxpayer money they got? Because the people in charge were Democrat campaign funding bundlers, getting pay-offs. They KNEW Solyndra was bad business, and they KNEW that money was gone as soon as it went out the door.

Bonds are sold on the principle that they are secured by company equity, at a fixed, relatively low rate of return. That is why they have low rates of return, because there isn's supposed to be as much risk.

In bankruptcy, the bonds are in line to be repaid first, either in a corporate buyout, or in liquidation of assets. Chrysler, and some GM bond holders were kicked to the curb, and lost out, as the government, the unions, and Fiat split up the company. That was unprecedented.

GM stock has not done well, and the government recently updated their monetary losses in that bail out, because of the lack of stock performance.

Those bail-outs were done full well knowing that those "loans" were beyond high risk, and a high fraction were never counted on being paid back. They knew it before they did it... and played it off as a patriotic move to preserve an american industry, despite the losses they knew they would incur.

A loan with no reasonable expectation of repayment, becomes a grant, giveaway, or bailout, even if there is language that claims an expectation, they knew it was nothing more than lip service when they wrote the agreements.

It was the same attitude for Solyndra, GM, Chrysler, Fisker, or the Community Reinvestment Act regulations forcing banks to extend mortgages to people who the government, and the banks BOTH knew could not repay them. The banks had a government-held gun to their heads, and tried to pass the bad paper off as securities to Fannie and Freddie, who are backed by FED printed cash.

Lip service is still just lip service, it doesn't excuse them from knowing what they were doing before, and as they were doing it.

They can call it a loan, and wink as it is lost. They count the lending as spending, and whatever small fraction they might get back, is treated as new revenue, not as return, and they dis-regard the loss, as they KEEP SPENDING at faster and faster rates. Nobody can be careful about where that money is going, or how they'll get it back, at the rate they are spending. They are throwing printed dollars around. If it were any faster, it would be random.

The tax dollars are in the wind, and you can see the deficit spending, and the debt climbing at a higher rate in the last three years than EVER before, and it was setting records before that, too.

The FED notes are printed and continue to be printed, as the FED buys treasury bills, to service that debt with little actual value behind it, and you can see the inflationary pressure at the fuel pump, and at the grocery store, as your money has less value, too.

They can call it whatever they want. The policy makers are experts at code language, and spin control.

The proof in the pudding is, that they have been giving the value of american's time, talent and effort away far faster than the people can provide it... Now they are giving away the time, talent, and effort of generations yet unborn. And they KNOW it.

And we are just seeing the beginning. When the printed greenbacks gain velocity out of the bank vaults that they are being held in at zero percent cost to the banks, while consumers pay higher credit interest rates, and get barely more than zero savings interest rates... Once that cash gains velocity, nobody who doesn't see it now, will know what hit them.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Eyeflyistheeye View Post
However, Fisker was doomed to fail from the start. Who has the money to buy a six-digit car from an unknown maker? Stupid for our government to give them a nickel of aid.
Fisker has been making and delivering cars.. the company hasn't failed.

Who has the money? Well, I guess all the people on the waiting lists to buy the Karma.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post

lot's of editorial drivel that isnt worth responding to because it's either opinion, or fact.
Quote:
Bonds are sold on the principle that they are secured by company equity, at a fixed, relatively low rate of return. That is why they have low rates of return, because there isn's supposed to be as much risk.
Close but no cigar. Bonds are not secured by company equity. I wonder where you are getting your information from. Bonds are simply SENIOR to equity. That is all. Any other privileges or rights they might have, need to be specifically included in their indenture.

Quote:
In bankruptcy, the bonds are in line to be repaid first, either in a corporate buyout, or in liquidation of assets. Chrysler, and some GM bond holders were kicked to the curb, and lost out, as the government, the unions, and Fiat split up the company. That was unprecedented.
I already stated this before and I'll state it again. Only the Chrysler loan holders got screwed over. They should have received preferential treatment but waived their rights (when a majority was forced by the govt to do so). I already alluded to this. The Unions claim was on equal footing with the bondholders and as such both parties were treated in a ratable manner.

Quote:
Those bail-outs were done full well knowing that those "loans" were beyond high risk, and a high fraction were never counted on being paid back. They knew it before they did it... and played it off as a patriotic move to preserve an american industry, despite the losses they knew they would incur.
A loan with no reasonable expectation of repayment, becomes a grant, giveaway, or bailout, even if there is language that claims an expectation, they knew it was nothing more than lip service when they wrote the agreements.
Did you have a seat at the table for the negotiations? Have you even crunched any of the numbers? Or are you playing Mr Hindsight Armchair Analyst?
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:07 PM   #12
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I am a taxpayer, and a bill payer. Tax payers funded all of this, and our representatives are supposed to be our delegates sitting at the table, and they've sold not only us out, but our unborn grandchildren.

I see my money being sucked away, as I work harder. I watch current events closely, and I have a brain.

It is not difficult to see the results, if you watch what happens.

Few ever investigate where things go, and what investigations are done, never seem to see results... yet the investigations still cost the taxpayers money.

The government says that the losses on the auto bail outs are up-rated. Ok.

Fisker misses the mark, and can't repay what they've been lent. Ok.

Old GM and Old Chrysler are saddled with the bad debt, and liquidated, new GM and New Chrysler/Fiat are now bright and shiny clean. Ok.

Solyndra goes belly-up, and there are reports that the government knew they were going to, yet still lent them more money than you and I put together could spend in our whole lifetimes. Oh, nobody knows where it went.

We're bailing out the EU... no plans announced on how they can EVER pay it back.

What about this is less than obvious?

What about a 15 Trillion Dollar Debt, 120+ Trillion in un-funded future liability, a thousand days without a federal budget, and nearly half of every dollar spent is borrowed... with no plans to cut back, or repay...

What is not clear?

Are you not paying attention to how much your lunch cost you today? Or the gas price that has gone up 40 cents in the last 10 days or so?, and is more than 100% higher this election year than the previous presidential election year?

Are you not paying attention to somehow there being fewer total jobs in the economy today, than ten years ago, despite a 30 million more people in this country, yet somehow the unemployment rate is decreasing, as people rolling off the unemployment eligibility regs are just no longer counted as existing?

If you don't want to pay attention, that is fine.

And if you know bonds so well, then please do explain what the purpose of a fixed return bond is, and how it is different to shares of stock, and how a bond ISN'T debt that the company owes the bond-holder.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:36 PM   #13
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I have been saying for ages that I don't know why we wanted to give Fisker money. Giving it to other companies would be better.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:38 PM   #14
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I dont want to argue your opinions. You have every right to them. I am just trying to correct a lot of your fallacies, which is all I have focused on.

Quote:
And if you know bonds so well, then please do explain what the purpose of a fixed return bond is, and how it is different to shares of stock, and how a bond ISN'T debt that the company owes the bond-holder.
The purpose of a fixed return bond is to provide a fixed income stream to the holder of the bond. Since bonds are senior in a capital structure and therefore (usually) adequately covered by the enterprise value of the company they are not considered risky. Bonds also have a face value of par (100) and will rarely trade significantly to the upside unless you are in a very low interest rate environment.

This is what a capital structure will look like in terms of preferential treatment in a bankruptcy.

Revolver (usually secured by a first lien on working capital, second lien on assets)
first lien debt (secured by first lien on assets, second lien on working capital)
second lien debt (secured by second lien on assets and working capital)
bonds (unsecured debt, claim on the company)
trade claims (unsecured debt, claim on the company)

preferred stock
common stock

with the exception of the bolded part your priority decreases as you move down the ladder.

just because a bond is a debt that the company owes the bond-holder does not mean they get back 100% or preferential treatment over other equal ratable claims.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:44 PM   #15
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Thanks for the clarifications.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:00 PM   #16
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Thanks for the clarifications.
welkommen

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Old 02-07-2012, 08:33 PM   #17
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The funny part is this actually shows government working if they decide not to give them the loan b/c they are not living up to their end of the bargain. I don't see why it would upset anyone.
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:28 PM   #18
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The funny part is this actually shows government working if they decide not to give them the loan b/c they are not living up to their end of the bargain. I don't see why it would upset anyone.
you stop with this liberal media bias spin.
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:46 PM   #19
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Personally i'd much rather piss away money to companies like this than all of the open bid contracts that Halliburton or anyone else is getting overseas.
Thats just my 2c
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Old 04-02-2013, 08:58 AM   #20
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...59688928.html#

Quote:
Fisker Hires Advisers as Loan Looms

Fisker Automotive Inc., the struggling battery-powered sports cars manufacturer, is exploring a possible bankruptcy-protection filing if efforts to find a buyer or strategic partner fail before an April loan payment comes due, said people familiar with the matter.

Fisker has hired restructuring lawyers at Kirkland & Ellis LLP to prepare for the possible bankruptcy filing, the people said, though no final decisions have been made. The company, which furloughed 200 U.S. workers in late March for a limited time to conserve cash, continues to seek buyers or investors that would help it avoid that outcome, the people said.

A Fisker spokesman declined to comment on Kirkland & Ellis.

The Anaheim, Calif., maker of a $100,000 sports car was funded in part by an Obama administration program to promote clean-energy vehicles. It faces an April 22 deadline to make a loan payment to the U.S. Department of Energy. Fisker currently carries about $192 million in debt under the DOE's Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program. The company and the DOE have declined to reveal the precise amount Fisker owes on April 22.

A Department of Energy spokesman said it "is committed to the best outcome for taxpayers." Fisker's equipment and property are pledged as collateral on its loan, so the U.S. government would likely control the company in the event of a bankruptcy-protection filing.

Fisker struggled even before its first battery-powered cars rolled off the assembly line in late 2011. In May 2011, the government declined to provide a full $529 million loan package to Fisker after the company fell behind on financial and development targets related to a second plug-in hybrid vehicle.

Fisker, strapped for cash after poor sales of its first plug-in hybrid, the Karma, has for months been in discussions with possible buyers, most recently two Chinese auto makers.

The talks with the Chinese auto makers, Zhejiang Geely Holding Group and Dongfeng Motor Group Co 0489.HK 0.00% ., have hit rough patches of late because of Fisker's desire to try to move forward with U.S. production at a former General Motors Co. GM -0.07% plant in Delaware that Fisker now owns, people familiar with the matter have said. The company is still reaching out to investment firms to try and find a buyer or additional money, said a person familiar with Fisker's plans.

Fisker got off to a rocky start when the Karma went on sale a year late. Glitches involving parts suppliers hampered production in the beginning. When the vehicle finally started getting built at a plant in Finland, it still had electrical problems and a battery flaw that resulted in a punishing review from Consumer Reports magazine.

Despite the flaws, the car's exotic design attracted buyers, including pop star Justin Bieber.

Fisker has delivered around 2,000 vehicles globally and at one point had 50 U.S. dealers, though the number has dwindled as the company's financial problems have increased. It hasn't built a car since July and its primary battery supplier, A123 Systems Inc., AONEQ -7.41% filed for bankruptcy protection and was purchased by Chinese firm Wanxiang Group Inc.

In an attempt to improve operations, Fisker hired former Chrysler President Tom LaSorda in February of 2012 to be chief executive officer, but he left the company the following September. He was replaced by Tony Posawatz, a former General Motors Co. engineer who ran the program to develop the Chevrolet Volt plug-in electric car. Henrik Fisker, the founder of the company, recently resigned as chairman, citing differences with the management strategy.

A few months later, the Department of Energy retained investment bank Houlihan Lokey Inc. to track the company's fundraising efforts, people familiar with the matter said.

In December 2012, Fisker said it was working with Evercore Partners Inc. EVR -2.46% to find potential investors or partners to raise money.

Fisker later hired Huron Consulting Group Inc HURN +0.64% . to help manage day-to-day operations during negotiations, including one of its own serving as chief administrative officer.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:40 AM   #21
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Chop it up, sell it off to Tesla, and get what money you can back. So long to a bad investment. Let us stop supporting moronic start ups with half assed business models.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:42 AM   #22
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Yeah...Tesla has the right idea...Fisker...not so much. I wasn't too fond of some of the motivation behind Fisker either way. However I am not too fond of these Chinese companies buying up US government funded technologies either...
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:46 AM   #23
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yeah, that part sucks... and you can bet the leeches at Fisker are using that angle hard. Give us money or we will sell to China..
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:55 AM   #24
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yeah, that part sucks... and you can bet the leeches at Fisker are using that angle hard. Give us money or we will sell to China..
It's a difficult argument to make, though, when the people you're trying to extort have the right to invalidate your threat.
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Old 04-02-2013, 01:20 PM   #25
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I wanted to see the Karma with the ZR1 drivetrain... Fisker has come up with some great designs - even the makeovers he gave to the old M6 and SL65.
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