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Old 02-20-2012, 06:02 PM   #1
No Limit Motorsport
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I want hear the stories, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Trying to make a decision on what to use on a car running 35+ PSI / 700ish WHP

I have the 625+ 11mm in stock, the P&L and AMR are on backorder for a month. Cost is a non-issue.

Anyone put any real boost through the 625+ yet? Anyone have any problems using the bigger stuff?

Keeping the extra material in the block with the 11mm sounds nice as long as they can take the pressure. If I have to, I will wait for the bigger stuff.

Heres some data I found, I am not an engineer.

ARP CA625+
Material - ARP Custom Age 625+
Yield Strength: 235-255,000 PSI
11mm body diameter
Tensile Strength: 260,000 PSI
Torque Spec - 100ft lbs

P&L
Material - ARP2000
215,000-220,000 clamp load rating
13 mm body diameter
110 ft/lb torque spec
Larger 24.5 mm/o.d. washer for increased clamping area

AMR
Material - 8740 chromoly
220,000 psi clamp load rating
9/16 diameter (14.2mm)
120ft/lb torque spec
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Last edited by No Limit Motorsport; 02-20-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport View Post
I want hear the stories, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Trying to make a decision on what to use on a car running 35+ PSI.

I have the 625+ 11mm in stock, the P&L and AMR are on backorder for a month. Cost is a non-issue.

Anyone put any real boost through the 625+ yet? Anyone have any problems using the bigger stuff?

Keeping the extra material in the block with the 11mm sounds nice as long as they can take the pressure. If I have to, I will wait for the bigger stuff.
The 625+ are where its at in my opinion. We have used them to over 600whp and had no issues. I'm sure that the AMR studs are nice but thats a lot of work for something that doesn't really need to be done.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.R.E.D View Post
The 625+ are where its at in my opinion. We have used them to over 600whp and had no issues. I'm sure that the AMR studs are nice but thats a lot of work for something that doesn't really need to be done.
K thank you that is one reputable source down.
----------

I just heard that the boys at Georgie Performance have been using stock diamter (L19) studs with good success. That tells me the 625+ would only be better.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:59 PM   #4
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I have the custom age 625+ . I run the calculations and even with the larger cross sectional area and 10ft/lbs more at final torque the P&L 13mm have less clamping force than the 625+.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:00 PM   #5
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How much horsepower are you running and how many pounds of boost? I need results not math lol
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport View Post
How much horsepower are you running and how many pounds of boost? I need results not math lol
lol everything is math... .

I just started my car for the first time,,, it has run 5 minutes so far. I will have some numbers soon.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:27 PM   #7
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Real world experience > math/theories
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:48 PM   #8
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Real world experience > math/theories
Probably every part on our cars has gone through an FEA analysis
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:09 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by juanmedina

Probably every part on our cars has gone through an FEA analysis
While it probably has, just because math and theories say it will work.... doesn't mean it will and vise versa.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I have the custom age 625+ . I run the calculations and even with the larger cross sectional area and 10ft/lbs more at final torque the P&L 13mm have less clamping force than the 625+.
but to play devils advocate, that makes the 625 more prone to failure for the same given defect in material. However from what little I know, L19 as a material is quite susceptible to defects in processing.

I had planned on guinea pigging the 625 11mm in my own car this year. 14mm have never given an issue but they're pricey. They're the only oversized stud that Darton East will install.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:46 PM   #11
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Anyone know what studs the other fast cars are running? Obviously p&l are running their own

Easy street? Rigoli? Roger Clark? Precision tuning? I'm sure I am forgetting a bunch.

Evo guys making 700ish tend to go for the L19 studs stock diameter with no issue. We have built a couple evos that make just over 800 with L19. Different application though.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:10 AM   #12
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I think these guys are doing Orings in racing.(the Evo guys surely are)

What are your guys retorquing strategies after initial install?

Last edited by CatfaceType-R; 02-21-2012 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport
Anyone know what studs the other fast cars are running? Obviously p&l are running their own

Easy street? Rigoli? Roger Clark? Precision tuning? I'm sure I am forgetting a bunch.

Evo guys making 700ish tend to go for the L19 studs stock diameter with no issue. We have built a couple evos that make just over 800 with L19. Different application though.
Roger Clark has their own 14 mm headstuds
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:51 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
I think these guys are doing Orings in racing.(the Evo guys surely are)

What are your guys retorquing strategies after initial install?
The Evo's we did were not o-ringed. I am sure some do, and it can't hurt.

This particular Subaru motor is getting O-ringed
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:52 AM   #15
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Roger Clark has their own 14 mm headstuds
Interesting, good to know.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:08 AM   #16
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Interesting, good to know.
the Gobstopper don't have a headgasket, they use o-rings and something like o-rings to separate the oil and water from the block going to the heads. It works for closed deck Subaru engines only, I think version 3 and 4 STI engines. lots of machining but they have proven their technology
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:30 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by berdugo View Post
the Gobstopper don't have a headgasket, they use o-rings and something like o-rings to separate the oil and water from the block going to the heads. It works for closed deck Subaru engines only, I think version 3 and 4 STI engines. lots of machining but they have proven their technology
Awesome. I love that car.

I made some phone calls. I am going to give the CA625+ a go. Going to O-ring the block and run Cosworth headgaskets. If it lifts, I can always do bigger studs. I have faith it won't at the power levels this thing will see. Its also going to save about $400 in work that the machine shop wanted to do the job.

Just waiting on my billet JE pistons to get here so I can sleeve this thing and get the ball rolling...

Last edited by No Limit Motorsport; 02-21-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:38 AM   #18
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport View Post
Awesome. I love that car.

I made some phone calls. I am going to give the CA625+ a go. Going to O-ring the block and run Cosworth headgaskets. If it lifts, I can always do bigger studs. I have faith it won't at the power levels this thing will see. Its also going to save about $400 in work that the machine shop wanted to do the job.

Just waiting on my billet JE pistons to get here so I can sleeve this thing and get the ball rolling...
I wish you the best of luck

Any particular reason why use Cosworth head gasket instead of oem?

I'm thinking about that for a long time now, RCM 14mm headstuds, sleeved block with o-ring, I just don't know if the oem head gasket can be "o-ringed"...

Btw what sleeves will you use? Is it Darton or LA Sleeves? Thanks
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:56 PM   #20
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I wish you the best of luck

Any particular reason why use Cosworth head gasket instead of oem?

I'm thinking about that for a long time now, RCM 14mm headstuds, sleeved block with o-ring, I just don't know if the oem head gasket can be "o-ringed"...

Btw what sleeves will you use? Is it Darton or LA Sleeves? Thanks
Darton sleeves. The person doing the sleeving wants to use those, so that is what we will use. I am a firm believer in whatever the person doing the job feels most comfortable with. Its all in the install.

No doubt the OEM headgaskets are good. We have never had a problem with the Cosworth gaskets either, only great experiences. Perhaps its a placebo effect, the feeling that the more you spend the better you get.

Here is a test showing the clamping area of the different gaskets.

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...ed-blocks.aspx

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Old 02-21-2012, 02:48 PM   #21
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what's the biggest stud that will fit through the stock dowels?

also, wrc cars use larger studs on the center two holes. It's something I've thought about doing.

Although we were up to 38psi on cosworth 11mm L19 studs. I think keeping the headgasket together is more an issue of temperature management than it is headstud size.

Last edited by jamal; 02-21-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:51 PM   #22
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I am running the A1 Technologies Bolts. 620 whp at 28 psi on a GT4094R with E85 and a mustang dyno. I plan on pushing the boost to around 35 psi in two weeks.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:19 PM   #23
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I am running the A1 Technologies Bolts. 620 whp at 28 psi on a GT4094R with E85 and a mustang dyno. I plan on pushing the boost to around 35 psi in two weeks.
Sounds promising. Keep us updated. I would expect the performance to be very similar to the ARP 625+. Are you running the chromoly or H11 version?
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by berdugo View Post
the Gobstopper don't have a headgasket, they use o-rings and something like o-rings to separate the oil and water from the block going to the heads. It works for closed deck Subaru engines only, I think version 3 and 4 STI engines. lots of machining but they have proven their technology
I know of 3 places working on this with one putting one into use and it seems to be working so far on a semi-closed block.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:18 PM   #25
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That sounds great. Please let me know if it is available in the market already
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