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Old 11-26-2010, 05:52 PM   #1
BlackFighter
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Default 11mm or 12mm oil pump for build block?

Today i was over Rallispec giving them a check for my street spec that Dave will be building. One thing we talked about was which oil pump to go with. I was going to use the 11mm oil pump but Dave suggested to use the 12mm JDM oil pump which i thought nothing about until i read this.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...1433697&page=6


Now the car will NOT be in the 10k rpm, at most 7500k maybe 8k, but is it still a good idea to go ahead and use the 12mm? Or is that an overkill?

The car is a DD and will see 420whp now and 525whp and no more down the road with stock heads. I would ask Dave but they are closed already

Thanks
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Last edited by BlackFighter; 11-27-2010 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 11-26-2010, 05:59 PM   #2
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go with the 12mm.
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Old 11-26-2010, 06:21 PM   #3
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I would personally only do a 12mm on a AVCS equipped car.
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Old 11-26-2010, 07:40 PM   #4
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I would go with what the builder recommends since he's intimately involved with selecting the tolerances the engine is built to and thier oil requirements. Without having the details of the build and tolerances spelled out here, it's anybody guess as to what's best suited.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:09 PM   #5
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i think a lot of vendors recommend the 11mm because its easier/cheaper for them to get.
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:17 AM   #6
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If I was building it, I would either go shimmed 10mm or simply a 11mm. However I would run looser rod bearings and std main bearings. But that's me. Other engine builders has different ways about going at it.
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:29 AM   #7
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Larger the pump means more flow, but not necessarily higher pressure. AFAIK you'd want an in between. And iirc the EJ207 which revs to 8000 was only a 10mm. You can always shim the 11mm, but it's one of those things that is iffy cause you don't want TOO much pressure.


I have an EJ257, nitrided crank, standard ACL mains and HX (+.001) ACL Rod bearings with eagle rods and a 11mm pump. I do not plan on putting a shim in. I think it will be just fine and supply enough for a 7700rpm redline.
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:40 AM   #8
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I have always used self modded,shimmed 10mm pumps spinning to 8500 with a little looser brg clearances with no issues.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:26 AM   #9
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If you run out of flow you run out of pressure. The 12mm is the highest volume pump, if you have looser clearances then run the 12mm. No shimming needed. Shimming will not keep the pump from running out of volume at high rpm.
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Old 11-27-2010, 11:42 AM   #10
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I am also using the killerb oil pick up tube if that makes any diff. I have no idea if Dave will be using looser clearances so i guess he knows what he is talking about.
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
i think a lot of vendors recommend the 11mm because its easier/cheaper for them to get.
I just ordered mine in http://rallispec.com/prod_cooling.htm it is 12mm High Volume Oil Pump provides a 20% increase in output compared to original factory oil pump. I only payed $195 with Dave.
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Old 11-27-2010, 12:58 PM   #12
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From another post my dissertation on oil pumps...

There are many similar versions of "modified" pumps that companies offer, but typically the quick modification is to add a shim to increase the pumps by-pass valve's activation pressure and/or change the by-pass valve's spring to increase the valve activation pressure. Adding a shim or changing the spring in this way means instead of the pressure being regulated to a maximum of 85psi, as designated by the factory, you will now have pressure above that amount because the by-pass valve will require more force to open.

The downside can be decreased efficiency of the by-pass valve because with shims and/or a heavy duty shim it may not be able to open completely causing oil pressure higher than desired. This can be especially disaterous if the pump has been ported to flow more oil without the supporting bearing clearances throught the motor. Oil pressure can exceed the capability of seals causing oil leaks in the motor and turbo. You ever see threads with new turbo/builds with oil leaks? Check out the build list and there is almost always a modified pump installed.

Another modification, although not as common and almost always done with shim/spring changes, is porting. This is when the entrance and/or exit ports and internal passages of the pump have had manufacturing imperfections removed/smoothed and/or passages opened up to increase the flow potential of the pump. The downside here is work being performed without data to back up the porting. It's not difficult to modify a pump to outflow the pressure relief, but I know of few companies that have data to backup thier work. If the pump can outflow the by-pass valve you can get pressure above what the oil seals can handle, again causing oil seals to fail and leak.

The theory with oil pressure and flow is to provide as much unrestricted flow as possible, but only as much pressure as you need. Once your pressure goes high enough to trigger the relief you recirculate the bypassed oil immediately back into the pump and that creates excessive heat in the oil. In a perfect world the pump creates the proper pressure/flow required by the build, but not enough to trigger the bypass. This is impossible considering the variables, but the closer you can get the better.

I see too often people putting a "modified" 08+ oil pump into thier cars as a common upgrade. A professional engine builder will properly match a pump to the builds tolerances and bearing clearnaces, but a larger pump should never be put on with a bigger is better mentality, because it's simply not true. IMO pumps in most setups should ONLY have porting to reduce flow restriction/cavitation and should never be shimmed or have the springs changed unless there is bench test data to prove the pump still properly regulates the oil pressure.
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Old 11-27-2010, 01:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
From another post my dissertation on oil pumps...

There are many similar versions of "modified" pumps that companies offer, but typically the quick modification is to add a shim to increase the pumps by-pass valve's activation pressure and/or change the by-pass valve's spring to increase the valve activation pressure. Adding a shim or changing the spring in this way means instead of the pressure being regulated to a maximum of 85psi, as designated by the factory, you will now have pressure above that amount because the by-pass valve will require more force to open.

The downside can be decreased efficiency of the by-pass valve because with shims and/or a heavy duty shim it may not be able to open completely causing oil pressure higher than desired. This can be especially disaterous if the pump has been ported to flow more oil without the supporting bearing clearances throught the motor. Oil pressure can exceed the capability of seals causing oil leaks in the motor and turbo. You ever see threads with new turbo/builds with oil leaks? Check out the build list and there is almost always a modified pump installed.

Another modification, although not as common and almost always done with shim/spring changes, is porting. This is when the entrance and/or exit ports and internal passages of the pump have had manufacturing imperfections removed/smoothed and/or passages opened up to increase the flow potential of the pump. The downside here is work being performed without data to back up the porting. It's not difficult to modify a pump to outflow the pressure relief, but I know of few companies that have data to backup thier work. If the pump can outflow the by-pass valve you can get pressure above what the oil seals can handle, again causing oil seals to fail and leak.

The theory with oil pressure and flow is to provide as much unrestricted flow as possible, but only as much pressure as you need. Once your pressure goes high enough to trigger the relief you recirculate the bypassed oil immediately back into the pump and that creates excessive heat in the oil. In a perfect world the pump creates the proper pressure/flow required by the build, but not enough to trigger the bypass. This is impossible considering the variables, but the closer you can get the better.

I see too often people putting a "modified" 08+ oil pump into thier cars as a common upgrade. A professional engine builder will properly match a pump to the builds tolerances and bearing clearnaces, but a larger pump should never be put on with a bigger is better mentality, because it's simply not true. IMO pumps in most setups should ONLY have porting to reduce flow restriction/cavitation and should never be shimmed or have the springs changed unless there is bench test data to prove the pump still properly regulates the oil pressure.
Damn...
This is not what I wanted to hear. My engine builder never asked me what oil pump I'd be using nor included a build sheet with my sleeved block. I'll be running a P&L 11mm ported oil pump on my drag build. But now you have me worried. Yikes...
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Old 11-27-2010, 09:15 PM   #14
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With .0016 main and .002. Rod bearing clearances a self potted 10mm was fine. I spun a 2.7l. 83mmx 102mm motor to 8,000 commonly. Bearings looked good upon teardown. I was running 15w-40 Rotella. Just remember, the pump wants to flow twice as much oil at 7,000 as it does at 3500. The less bypass the better.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
From another post my dissertation on oil pumps...

There are many similar versions of "modified" pumps that companies offer,
Rallispec are using a jdm 12mm oil pump and is not modified. They build my short block and they're really good people. I just ordered your killerbee/sti ultimate oil pick up with importimage.com.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:39 PM   #16
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^ You didn't buy our pickup. They do not sell "Ultimate" pickups, they sell a knockoff that is inferior in many ways.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:40 PM   #17
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importimageracing sells covert

i have one, and can say nothing bad about it...
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:44 PM   #18
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I've been using a 12mm oil pump on my old engine, and will be using it on my current engine. Pump is neither ported, nor shimmed. I was initially worried about running a larger pump initially but so far so good!

-Also, I don't rev the engine above 6500RPM.
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Old 11-27-2010, 11:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
^ You didn't buy our pickup. They do not sell "Ultimate" pickups, they sell a knockoff that is inferior in many ways.
I never said i will buy your killerbee/sti ultimate oil pick up in RALLISPEC . What i just said i just ordered your killerbee/sti ultimate oil pick up with josh in importimage.com.WTF?
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:46 AM   #20
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Let me rephrase that. Josh aka importimage does not sell Killer B products and is not a certified reseller. We've never qualified them for selling or distributing our products and have never sold them parts.
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Old 11-28-2010, 04:46 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Let me rephrase that. Josh aka importimage does not sell Killer B products and is not a certified reseller. We've never qualified them for selling or distributing our products and have never sold them parts.
Can you please post a pic of them both? Is the covert part the one with larger tube welded to the stock tube?
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Old 11-28-2010, 05:33 PM   #22
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This is our Killer B Motorsport Ultimate Oil Pickup...













I don't have a pic of the Covert one, since it's not our pickup.
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Old 11-28-2010, 06:28 PM   #23
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Covert


Both Covert and KillerB are leaps and bounds better than OEM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:21 PM   #24
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IMO the wider open screen pick up would seem to allow a greater chance to suck in air during high speed/G's cornering
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sense of nature View Post
IMO the wider open screen pick up would seem to allow a greater chance to suck in air during high speed/G's cornering
That's not happening.
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