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Old 10-24-2012, 04:33 PM   #3601
slowgenius
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Trust me i dont think i should have to pay more money so my newly built motor performs at my goals. But there is no government program for hard luck built engine guys. We are stuck with it. We all banked on the 704 being just as reliable as 703 etc. Nobody thought otherwise. Nobody. All the R&D was more like wait and see what happens approach. I dont like it, it was just the wrong time.

My only thing is im not gonna blame somebody that seems like they were straight up about everything they do. Every single company that sells a motor and knows its going to be pushed over 300 crank is just as responsible.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:03 PM   #3602
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Dude, you paid for an 800whp capable motor. Did you get it?

This is exactly like if you were to pay for 50Mbps internet service but only get 25Mbps because the cable they ran to your house sucks since they started buying theirs from China recently. And now they are asking you to pay for an 'upgraded' cable because at the time, they didn't know the cable they were getting from China sucked.


But as the age old saying goes, a fool and his money are soon parted...


Wait...I'm assuming you bought your engine from someone claiming it can handle more power than it really can. If not, then forget what I said.

Last edited by MRF582; 10-24-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:49 PM   #3603
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I know what your saying, but NOBODY knew. Nobody. I was never told my motor would or would not. It was built with the intention to run 500+ whp with standard built engine tolerances/practices by Moore Performance. There is no saying it wouldnt either. The problem is nobody knows until you try it. Im just not willing to risk blowing up 10k to see what happens.

I never had a reason to be uncomfortable until other people were having issues. I am disappointed for sure but i can take care of it to within a reasonable doubt not have to worry after that.

Hind sight is 20/20. I started putting the motor together just so it wouldnt fail at decent power levels 350+ whp, and upgraded here and there and ended up with a motor that should have been fine over 500whp. Who knew i was supposed to build a 1200hp motor with sleeves for some peace of mind.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:05 PM   #3604
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Also, comparing internet speed and building a racecar engine is two different things. There are no corporate subaru 800 hp motor programs because its too expensive to implement.

I got money back from comcast for my internet because it was slow. Like 30 bucks. Called customer service bam! They are a multimillion dollar company. 30 bucks aint killing them.

Small companies produce built motors usually to order, and at the consumers risk.

Look at cosworth heads people complain about issues with. Just cncd ports, assembled by humans. Cost a grip. Nobodys perfect. They drop valves.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:17 PM   #3605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius
Also, comparing internet speed and building a racecar engine is two different things. There are no corporate subaru 800 hp motor programs because its too expensive to implement.

I got money back from comcast for my internet because it was slow. Like 30 bucks. Called customer service bam! They are a multimillion dollar company. 30 bucks aint killing them.

Small companies produce built motors usually to order, and at the consumers risk.

Look at cosworth heads people complain about issues with. Just cncd ports, assembled by humans. Cost a grip. Nobodys perfect. They drop valves.
The lack of quality from cosworth, has caused a grip of their engineers to leave and now the whole company is for sale.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:48 PM   #3606
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A
B
3
D

!!


love it. soo.. there are a bunch of engine builders that DO dyno all the engines they sell. they dont' build no subarus though. i mean, even GMPP crate engines come with dyonsheets. even shortblocks. they tell you what heads and intakes they use to complete the package and dyno like that.. so ah.. yeah. also a GMPP brand new 650hp long block is ~ 10k. so i mean.. for what you get, area under the curve.. i wanna just get a 5.3l gen4, monster turbo, an R200 and a nice LGT wagon... i do like the subaru interiors and driving position...

and RE: cosworth.. they're forcing other people to make better stuff, cause theirs comes up so short, it's unreasonable for a renowned co like them to put out such mediocre crap.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:49 PM   #3607
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Well if you plan to sell a product, you can keep price low enough where people buy it regardless. Or an expensive one with excellent quality. If that quality goes south, eventually the products stop selling.

People flocked to junk domestic vehicles for years because they were cheap. They sold a bunch and stayed in buisness because people were buying. When the foreign car companies came with better quality and people started switching.

They started loosing sales then they upped their game.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:55 PM   #3608
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dont' sully the rest of your brilliance of the day, i mean, you missed a good 30yr gap in there where domestic car companies just continued polishing the same turds till they would have failed.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:05 PM   #3609
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Jason companies been building crate domestic motors for years and years, while the import scene hasnt been around as long.

Their engine programs are well established and supported by corporate racing programs. There has been a bigger consumer market to support them.

Subaru is a small part of the import market that is still gaining popularity.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:10 PM   #3610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glhs377
dont' sully the rest of your brilliance of the day, i mean, you missed a good 30yr gap in there where domestic car companies just continued polishing the same turds till they would have failed.
I thought that was what i was saying.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #3611
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cmon man, you can have purchased crate import engines for as far as i know, at least 20 years. subaru have been making performance cars the rest of the world has been tuning and offereing crate engines on, to even the aircraft industry, since the early 90s. enough has changed in the whole industry since then, that nobody has a leg up on nobody.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:19 PM   #3612
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i revise that. 30 years. 3tc and 22R. settin the import world on FIAAAAHHH 30 years ago!
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:22 PM   #3613
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Well folks I have been saying this for like three years now. Want over 400 whp choose a different platform. For a street car I am thinking a 400 whp 3300 pound car with a good suspension set up is plenty. I love subies but if you want a fire breathing 600 whp super car there are better ways to go about it.

This is no way a swipe at Tom . Everyone that knows the both of is fully aware of the tremendous amount of respect that I have for him. To a lessor degree I can identify with and fully understand what he is doing. Once I swapped the six speed into my wagon there was no turning back. Had circumstances allowed I would have a 500 whp 30k invested wagon in my garage right now. It would be worth 12 k to the rest of the world but irreplaceable to me.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:26 PM   #3614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
People flocked to junk domestic vehicles for years because they were cheap. They sold a bunch and stayed in buisness because people were buying. When the foreign car companies came with better quality and people started switching.

They started loosing sales then they upped their game.
Is this some sort of an analogy for Element Tuning's engines?

And seriously, you think building Subaru engines is something new? The sandrail guys love Subaru engines. They even offer specific engine packages with a rated horsepower figure. There is a LOT of knowledge in the Subaru powered sandrail world.
http://www.cgperformance.com/subaru_turn-key_motors.htm
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:29 PM   #3615
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Guys I need some help. My buddy curbed the wheel on his 2012 maserati GT. Can anyone fix it or know someone who can fix it? Thanks :-)
......
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:40 PM   #3616
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Originally Posted by Tenacious Bee View Post
Well folks I have been saying this for like three years now. Want over 400 whp choose a different platform. For a street car I am thinking a 400 whp 3300 pound car with a good suspension set up is plenty. I love subies but if you want a fire breathing 600 whp super car there are better ways to go about it.
LOL, really? Then these guys must practice black magic to get their 600HP motors to live in the desert heat at WOT.
http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/600hp_setup.htm
And I bet you can buy their engine as advertised and it makes the advertised horsepower. Not this crap like 'oh i'm sorry, i didn't know i made a ****ty engine for you, it's not my fault, pay me more money!'.

It's people like Tom and James who are willing to put up with BS like this that keeps the quality from improving. If you advertise that your part will do something, it better do it or don't sell it.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:59 PM   #3617
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shek, Phil changes engines a couple times a year, and when he heads to the west coast regardless. so do anyone making 600+ squirrels from an EJ. at those power levels, it's a matter of hrs and startup cycles on the engine.



and none of those are for the street. bearing clearances that wouldn't even work in the winter etc. high HP precision engines are more suited to oil pre-heater/pressurizers and frequent teardowns. that **** is not only time consuming but expensive.

now 600 hp from one of these babies.. would last forever... it's almost a matter of mass.

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Old 10-24-2012, 09:07 PM   #3618
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Originally Posted by MRF582
LOL, really? Then these guys must practice black magic to get their 600HP motors to live in the desert heat at WOT.
http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/600hp_setup.htm
And I bet you can buy their engine as advertised and it makes the advertised horsepower. Not this crap like 'oh i'm sorry, i didn't know i made a ****ty engine for you, it's not my fault, pay me more money!'.

It's people like Tom and James who are willing to put up with BS like this that keeps the quality from improving. If you advertise that your part will do something, it better do it or don't sell it.
My comments pertain to a street driven vehicle not something towed to an event a dozen times a season then rebuilt for the next. Don't get me wrong here. I am not disagreeing with your position on element. Your Internet speed analogy pretty much sums that up. I think you would agree that a sand rail application is not a fair comparison to something you would drive to QSL the first Wednesday of the month. If I return to the Subie world I have realistic expectations .
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:57 PM   #3619
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Nobody is contesting the past reliability and ability to make power with the pre 704 casting engines or platforms. So that precludes alot of the sand rail, racing people etc.

My comment wasnt an analogy towards phil. I was talking about how as far as i know, nobody dyno tests and sells subaru motors with dyno sheets. Jason said the domestic boys do for their crate motors.

I was also saying how american car companies took advantage of consumers by not keeping their products competitive until they were loosing money on imports being better until just a few years ago.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:03 PM   #3620
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Shek if you look what outfront does is pretty close to what element is doing. Its closing the deck so the cylinder wall doesnt fail catastrophically. Outfront has been doing it longer. From what seems to be the issue, the 704 needs this at a way lower power level than previously determined, hence our problem.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:59 PM   #3621
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Im confused as to what bs im putting up with that is keeping quality down? I dont have an element engine. I was made no promises as to what my engine would do.

I put my balls on the line with a local shop that does subarus so i could be involved with the process. They have been up front with me the whole time. They have done everything i have asked of them. If anyone is to blame its me for my situation.

I never asked for a guarantee that my power goal was attainable with the stock liners. I asked for the heavy i beam rods, pistons and bearing clearances for 500whp and looked what other people were doing with their builds. At the time, toms first motor was still kicking, and nobody was concerned about 704 liners failing.

What i was reassured about was that the assembly and machine work was done very well and my parts were all new and in good shape, thus trusting in their manufacturers claims. That did not include any info from subaru the part in question here. The 704 block.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:39 PM   #3622
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Jason/Vern, ok point taken. I thought Vern was saying Subaru engines can't make that kind of power reliably. They can but then you can't cold start them in the winter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
My comment wasnt an analogy towards phil. I was talking about how as far as i know, nobody dyno tests and sells subaru motors with dyno sheets. Jason said the domestic boys do for their crate motors.
Actually, the two sandrail Subaru engine companies I linked to DO provide a guarantee the engine will make the advertised power! You are free to dyno it and if it is not as advertised they will fix it.

And I didn't know your engine wasn't assembled by Element Tuning. If you bought the block yourself and paid someone to put it together, then yeah, that's all on you! You took on some R&D. Sucks but that's what happens.

Tom on the other hand didn't want to do any R&D on the engine so he just paid Element to build one for him that would be good for xxxWHP. Instead, he got an engine that wasn't what he paid for.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:09 AM   #3623
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I know, I know.


Don't buy EJs.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:14 AM   #3624
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I looked at outfront at the time and yeah i had a box with a brand new case in it. I was gonna do an element motor so i would have ran into Toms issue also. Phil infomed me he wouldnt warranty the motor if he used my case. You keep avoiding the only issue of the 704 not performing in a previously proven manner of the 703 and lower series blocks. I accept my ignorance, there was no data about failures like what is happening now for whatever reasons or like i said i would have got it sleeved.

Honestly in the past 3 years there has been alot happening. Heck when i bought my car the dealer i got my car from had one of the first STI's which i would own had it not already been sold. I was in the dark because my car ran great on a turbo xs turbo back and a utec and top mount for five years and no issues. I rarely looked at nasioc in that time.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:07 AM   #3625
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saw this beast on the road tonite. not really sure what's goin on with that. wonder if people think the same about my wagon
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