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Old 11-13-2012, 07:49 AM   #226
stevehnm
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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
How do you know the Consumer Reports testing data is accurate? Maybe they were on Meth instead of Math that day.

Now you want to try to sidestep the question by asking if Consumer Reports is accurate, after quoting them several times? Implying that they might have "been on Meth rather than Math doesn't cut it. More blather.

You sure are entertaining.

Just answer the question.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:08 AM   #227
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This thread is about whether the window sticker numbers, provided by Subaru in compliance with the EPA testing requirements, are accurate for this car.

Not how this car compares to others, but whether those numbers are accurate.

Because Subaru does not warranty this car in comparison to other cars. Some cars get 10 year/100,000 mile warranties. Your Subaru does not.

Subaru also makes no claim that if your other car gets better than the numbers posted on the window sticker, your Impreza will do the same.

The fact is you can achieve the mileage on your sticker if you drive it at the speeds that the EPA tests specify, but you don't want to drive those speeds, because your time is more valuable than that (minimum wage, grandma).

Your time is so valuable yet you keep this argument going, when any objective person looking at the data you provided can see that I am right, and you are wrong.

As consolation for being wrong, and because you prefer to compare this car with other cars rather than admit your own data supports the HWY MPG number shown on your window sticker, try to remember which car you would rather be sitting in if someone accidentally drives into you at 50 mph.

My bet is it would not be your toyota corolla.

But you will probably argue otherwise, since you like to do that.

Last edited by Zeeper; 11-13-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:34 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by stevehnm

You won't answer the question either, eh?

You are as funny as zeeper. You don't get that changing speeds and stopping and going give less mpg's than a constant speed.

What is your background in physics?

Neither do you understand that "an awd vehicle with a bigger engine, and 30-40% more weight" is all considered in the EPA procedure.

Blather.
What was your question?

How does a constant speed of 75-80mph result in better than epa ESTIMATES? Remember not guaranteed mpg at ANY speed. You realize parasite drag increases at an exponential rate, which means your heavier car with more power is going to burn even more gas as your speed increases. I am a pilot afterall, I have a pretty good understanding of physics. This concept is no different than in an airplane where I can use x power setting and go x speed, or y power and y speed (usually not much faster, 5%) but use 30-50% more fuel.

Last edited by flyboy1100; 11-13-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:48 PM   #229
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Come on you two. This guy clearly just enjoys complaining and arguing. Quit troll-feeding and let this thread die.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:17 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabarupp
Come on you two. This guy clearly just enjoys complaining and arguing. Quit troll-feeding and let this thread die.
But is so much fun arguing with people who have no real clue what they are even trying to argue
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:17 PM   #231
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For everyone complaint about downshifts going down hill honda autos always do this and also when you hit the brakes. They also hold gear going up hills as well
This is excellent logic. Now we can dismiss all material defect in the consumer products purchased by finding an equally disappointing defect in another consumer product.

It would be silly to expect quality and consider alternatives when a company doesn't deliver.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:20 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Bluto123

This is excellent logic. Now we can dismiss all material defect in the consumer products purchased by finding an equally disappointing defect in another consumer product.

It would be silly to expect quality and consider alternatives when a company doesn't deliver.
My 15yr old Buick does the same
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:57 PM   #233
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My 15yr old Buick does the same
Wow. Shocker...The dumb money says embrace the status-quo...
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:22 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Bluto123 View Post
This is excellent logic. Now we can dismiss all material defect in the consumer products purchased by finding an equally disappointing defect in another consumer product.

It would be silly to expect quality and consider alternatives when a company doesn't deliver.
not a defect thats how the auto computer is programmed.

Quote:
Grade Logic Control
The Grade Logic Control system differs from other computer-controlled shift programming because it can detect driving situations and then set appropriate shift points for the car. It helps your Accord avoid gear hunting on climbs and descents, and it downshifts for added engine braking when needed.

http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-...rformance.aspx


just saying why penalize subaru for something that is done by a great many automobile manufacturers, toyotas do it so replace your favorite brand with an auto here.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:51 PM   #235
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Wow. Shocker...The dumb money says embrace the status-quo...

i bought a 5sp, so i wouldn't have to deal with the crap you cvt guys do. plus it is pretty damn standard on all cars when cruise control is on. you tell the car to hold a speed, and it will do it....amazing how that works.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:01 AM   #236
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Why does the Impreza have much higher EPA test mpg estimates than other cars that get the same mpg in Consumer Reports independent tests?
That's the question, and it fits the subject of the thread, despite the half-witted attempts at obfuscation here.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:43 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by stevehnm

That's the question, and it fits the subject of the thread, despite the half-witted attempts at obfuscation here.
http://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible_pg4.html

And this still applies. I know for a fact that I can speed up and slow down(60-25) as long as my speed doesn't exceed 60-65 I can get better mpg than at a constant speed of 75-80.

" How does a constant speed of 75-80mph result in better than epa ESTIMATES? Remember not guaranteed mpg at ANY speed. You realize parasite drag increases at an exponential rate, which means your heavier car with more power is going to burn even more gas as your speed increases. I am a pilot afterall, I have a pretty good understanding of physics. This concept is no different than in an airplane where I can use x power setting and go x speed, or y power and y speed (usually not much faster, 5%) but use 30-50% more fuel."
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:44 AM   #238
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http://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible_pg4.html

And this still applies. I know for a fact that I can speed up and slow down(60-25) as long as my speed doesn't exceed 60-65 I can get better mpg than at a constant speed of 75-80.

" How does a constant speed of 75-80mph result in better than epa ESTIMATES? Remember not guaranteed mpg at ANY speed. You realize parasite drag increases at an exponential rate, which means your heavier car with more power is going to burn even more gas as your speed increases. I am a pilot afterall, I have a pretty good understanding of physics. This concept is no different than in an airplane where I can use x power setting and go x speed, or y power and y speed (usually not much faster, 5%) but use 30-50% more fuel."
I agree with you and that has nothing to do with my point. I never said that, despite your repeated attempts to make a straw man out of my position. I said going a constant 60 mph will get you better mpg than constantly speeding up and slowing down but averaging 60.

Your link is false as well, because it says one can never get as good mpg as the EPA estimate. One can. It's just not worth it, unless one is happy to be making less than minimum wage while driving really slowly.

So answer the question.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:13 AM   #239
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Your link is false as well, because it says one can never get as good mpg as the EPA estimate. One can. It's just not worth it, unless one is happy to be making less than minimum wage while driving really slowly.
So you are admitting that the sticker on the car is accurate, because the car can return the numbers shown on the sticker.

That will make a great argument when you file your warranty claim and/or complain to the EPA.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:20 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm

I agree with you and that has nothing to do with my point. I never said that, despite your repeated attempts to make a straw man out of my position. I said going a constant 60 mph will get you better mpg than constantly speeding up and slowing down but averaging 60.

Your link is false as well, because it says one can never get as good mpg as the EPA estimate. One can. It's just not worth it, unless one is happy to be making less than minimum wage while driving really slowly.

So answer the question.
No you said driving the speed limit 70-80mph in your area will yield you better mpg than the epa testing which is variable speed
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:46 AM   #241
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i did some looking through CR's research.......
Mazda 3, doesn't achieve EPA MPG, looks pretty close to Impreza overall
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...-and-specs.htm

Ford Focus SFE also does not, looks pretty close to Impreza overall
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/f...-and-specs.htm

Chevy Cruze ECO is close, but still falls below EPA, looks pretty close to Impreza overall
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-and-specs.htm

Toyota Corolla i close as well, but definitely DOES NOT exceed EPA, does beat the impreza, but i would expect that as it is rated higher
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/t...-and-specs.htm

Honda Civic also short, and all across the board
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/h...-and-specs.htm

Mitsubishi Lancer same story as the rest, impreza wipes the floor with it
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...-and-specs.htm

Mazda 2 is pretty close to EPA, beats impreza, but same story as Corolla
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...-and-specs.htm

Honda fit does exceed epa,
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/h...-and-specs.htm

and our Impreza, they have not tested in a 150mile trip so you can't really compare
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/s...-and-specs.htm



so, looking at all these and others which are all similar, the EPA testing is flawed, and as I have been stating the ENTIRE THREAD, you can't trust it, you can't look at it as a guarantee, it is just a guideline and nothing more. I never expected to achieve EPA MPG at 75, and I don't, I am close enough, but not there. like any car out there if you want to achieve the numbers you have to drive closer to the EPA average speed and Use ethanol free fuel.

you really have no case for warranty or a lawsuit.

am I am happy with my choice, i am willing to take a 10% hit in MPG for better driveability

Last edited by flyboy1100; 11-15-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:46 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
That's the question, and it fits the subject of the thread, despite the half-witted attempts at obfuscation here.
I answered this already a while back, but you ignored it and decided to just keep on complaining:

Quote:
It's not so much that the test numbers are "inflated" as the test doesn't include the conditions where the impreza is most inefficient. That is not subaru's fault, and they did not "game" the test. The test just unfortunately does not reflect the real world very well for a vehicle with an awd system designed like subaru's.
That is the problem with standardized tests in general. They try to create universal measurements for comparative purposes, but unfortunately the expectations they establish sometimes don't play out in reality. It's like that with lots of things; SAT scores; BMI; NFL Combine.

Stop worrying about arguments and pay attention when somebody actually answers your question.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:38 PM   #243
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You are still confused. I will take your links and post the relevant numbers here. In the case of multiple tests, I will take the one on the right, which is the most current. The first column is the Consumer Reports (independent) Highway figure. The second is the alleged EPA (by Subaru) highway figure. The third is the ratio of the CR to the EPA figures. You will notice they are all over 1, except the Impreza. In fact, when compared to the ratio of the others in the field (of your choice) The Impreza is *over 2 standard deviations* below the field.

Brand CR EPA CR/EPA
Mazda 3 34 29 1.17
Focus 39 37 1.05
Cruze 40 39 1.03
Corolla 39 35 1.11
Civic HF 49 39 1.26
Lancer 28 25 1.12
Mazda 2 40 35 1.14
Honda Fit 39 35 1.11
Impreza 35 36 0.97


[quote=flyboy1100;38500579]i did some looking through CR's research.......
Mazda 3, doesn't achieve EPA MPG, looks pretty close to Impreza overall
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...-and-specs.htm

Ford Focus SFE also does not, looks pretty close to Impreza overall
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/f...-and-specs.htm

Chevy Cruze ECO is close, but still falls below EPA, looks pretty close to Impreza overall
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-and-specs.htm

Toyota Corolla i close as well, but definitely DOES NOT exceed EPA, does beat the impreza, but i would expect that as it is rated higher
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/t...-and-specs.htm

Honda Civic also short, and all across the board
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/h...-and-specs.htm

Mitsubishi Lancer same story as the rest, impreza wipes the floor with it
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...-and-specs.htm

Mazda 2 is pretty close to EPA, beats impreza, but same story as Corolla
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/m...-and-specs.htm

Honda fit does exceed epa,
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/h...-and-specs.htm

and our Impreza, they have not tested in a 150mile trip so you can't really compare
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/s...-and-specs.htm

Last edited by stevehnm; 11-15-2012 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:34 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by stevehnm
You are still confused. I will take your links and post the relevant numbers here. In the case of multiple tests, I will take the one on the right, which is the most current. The first column is the Consumer Reports (independent) Highway figure. The second is the alleged EPA (by Subaru) highway figure. The third is the ratio of the CR to the EPA figures. You will notice they are all over 1, except the Impreza. In fact, when compared to the ratio of the others in the field (of your choice) The Impreza is *over 2 standard deviations* below the field.

Brand CR EPA CR/EPA
Mazda 3 34 29 1.17
Focus 39 37 1.05
Cruze 40 39 1.03
Corolla 39 35 1.11
Civic HF 49 39 1.26
Lancer 28 25 1.12
Mazda 2 40 35 1.14
Honda Fit 39 35 1.11
Impreza 35 36 0.97
I am not confused, none of those cars achieve their epa mileage in independent testing. I don't think you even posted the right epa numbers because I'm pretty sure w/o looking that the Mazda 3 is rated at 40mpg highway.

Either way, I believe the testing is flawed, and always has been flawed. I never expect to achieve epa numbers unless I keep the speed below 65 which I rarely do, so I accept the lower mpg because I understand drag must be overcome and I am going to use more fuel to save some time.
On my normal commute if I were to leave 10 minutes earlier I could drive at 65 and get 15% better mpg, but right now with my schedule it isn't possible, maybe in the future.

Right now with temps around 20f i'm seeing an additional loss of 10% until the entire drivetrain is warmed up, again to be expected with 2 differentials and a transfer case to warm up plus the transmission.

So I am confused on the point you are trying to make because:

1. Car does get epa at 60-65mph
2. Epa testing is not realistic, especially when they don't account for wind/hills and use a social blend of fuel consumers cannot buy
3. All of the independent testing by CR does almost every vehicle does not achieve epa estimates.
4. Subaru didn't game at the numbers, especially when other manufacturers are in the same boat with estimates vs real world.
5. Estimates are never guarantees, you fall w/in the expected range you were told to expect. I bet if you brought your car to where they do the testing you would get closer to the big bold numbers.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:16 PM   #245
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I am not confused, none of those cars achieve their epa mileage in independent testing. I don't think you even posted the right epa numbers because I'm pretty sure w/o looking that the Mazda 3 is rated at 40mpg highway.


So I am confused on the point you are trying to make because:

1. Car does get epa at 60-65mph
2. Epa testing is not realistic, especially when they don't account for wind/hills and use a social blend of fuel consumers cannot buy
3. All of the independent testing by CR does almost every vehicle does not achieve epa estimates.
4. Subaru didn't game at the numbers, especially when other manufacturers are in the same boat with estimates vs real world.
5. Estimates are never guarantees, you fall w/in the expected range you were told to expect. I bet if you brought your car to where they do the testing you would get closer to the big bold numbers.
First, the Mazda 3 numbers depend on the engine. Apparently the latest test on the Mazda was not with the "SkyActiv" system but I went with the last test, as I said.

1. Car gets EPA mileage at *under* 60 mph under real driving conditions. That is a dangerous speed to be driving on a highway full of 75 mph traffic.

2. I agree EPA testing is not realistic, however, many brands can in fact achieve their highway EPA test results at 70 to 75 mph - it's just that the Impreza is nowhere close.

3. False

4. Misleading, as other manufacturers exceed EPA estimates when tested *independently* by Consumer Reports. It would take a severe stroke of genius and dishonesty to achieve the EPA results accurately considering the real life mpg figures (again, with the cvt which you don't have so you have no business in this discussion anyway).

5. Over 2 standard deviations below the distribution of the competition, as chosen by you, is much more meaningful in terms of reality than your dogma.

Give it up. You look more and more ridiculous every day. Just admit you were wrong. It's not that big a deal. Everybody is wrong sometimes.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:36 PM   #246
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First, the Mazda 3 numbers depend on the engine. Apparently the latest test on the Mazda was not with the "SkyActiv" system but I went with the last test, as I said.

1. Car gets EPA mileage at *under* 60 mph under real driving conditions. That is a dangerous speed to be driving on a highway full of 75 mph traffic.

2. I agree EPA testing is not realistic, however, many brands can in fact achieve their highway EPA test results at 70 to 75 mph - it's just that the Impreza is nowhere close.

3. False

4. Misleading, as other manufacturers exceed EPA estimates when tested *independently* by Consumer Reports. It would take a severe stroke of genius and dishonesty to achieve the EPA results accurately considering the real life mpg figures (again, with the cvt which you don't have so you have no business in this discussion anyway).

5. Over 2 standard deviations below the distribution of the competition, as chosen by you, is much more meaningful in terms of reality than your dogma.

Give it up. You look more and more ridiculous every day. Just admit you were wrong. It's not that big a deal. Everybody is wrong sometimes.
i just looked at the CR city/highway numbers again. they get 35mpg (at 65mph, http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...cars/index.htm) out of the Impreza, only 1 below EPA estimated. apparently you suck at driving and life. good luck with you lawsuit, you will get laughed out of court when you bring up CR and the fact that they can pretty much achieve EPA estimated

Last edited by flyboy1100; 11-15-2012 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:02 AM   #247
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i just looked at the CR city/highway numbers again. they get 35mpg (at 65mph, http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...cars/index.htm) out of the Impreza, only 1 below EPA estimated. apparently you suck at driving and life. good luck with you lawsuit, you will get laughed out of court when you bring up CR and the fact that they can pretty much achieve EPA estimated
I guess you don't understand statistics, specifically standard deviation. You are living in lala land.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:45 AM   #248
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It will be interesting to see some of the data from Crosstrek owners. I believe they will have the same experience as some do with the Impreza. I admit my MPG is bad due to my very short drives and heavy foot, but driven the same way over the same roads my 10 Outback it will get the same or in some cases better fuel economy. That is with a larger engine and hundreds of pounds of more mass to move. I still think the 2.0 could be a little undersized even for the Impreza making work hard than let say my OB has to.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:15 AM   #249
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When you do your lawsuit, I want in, look at the horrendous mpg I get at 75, I know it is above the recommended speed for the best mpg and I shouldn't complain, but it is completely unacceptable, others get better than epa mpg in other cars, so this one should too. My mpg display does read 3.3% high, so I am only getting 31.9 mpg at this speed with no wind

Last edited by flyboy1100; 11-16-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:56 AM   #250
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When you do your lawsuit, I want in, look at the horrendous mpg I get at 75, I know it is above the recommended speed for the best mpg and I shouldn't complain, but it is completely unacceptable, others get better than epa mpg in other cars, so this one should too. My mpg display does read 3.3% high, so I am only getting 31.9 mpg at this speed with no wind
You couldn't have in anyway. You get better mpg than I do, and you have a 5 speed. At least you get close to advertised. What is the "recommended speed for the best mpg" in the 5 speed, as you say? It's about 30 mph in the cvt I think...

Last edited by stevehnm; 11-17-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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