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Old 10-25-2012, 07:58 AM   #126
stevehnm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Not all cars are tested by the EPA, but the EPA does certify the tests. Subaru is not gaming the system.
Are you the "all knowing"? What makes you think you *know* Subaru is not "gaming the system"? You can "believe" it, or say you know it to the best of your ability, but you do not "know" it. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Why is it that Subaru cannot accurately measure the fuel used and the mileage driven and divide the second by the first?
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:03 AM   #127
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This issue was already and is currently being discussed on the Impreza forum.

There is no evidence whatsoever that you were misled by the EPA, or Subaru conducted false certified EPA testing, or that they tweaked the engine to inflate the EPA numbers at the expense of real world driving.

Look at the multiple reviews of the new Impreza, from Consumer Reports to Motorweek, etc. Nothing but rave reviews. Consumer Reports designated the new Impreza as the best car in its class!

So much for that argument.

I also forgot this gem, also on the window sticker:

"Your actual mileage will vary depending on how you drive and maintain your vehicle"

You can attack the messenger all you want, whether it is your window sticker or me, or Fuelly, etc.

You get less MPG when you drive fast. Wow, that is such a surprise! That does not happen with your other FWD car? So what?

Good luck with your warranty complaint and/or class action lawsuit.

You are barking at the moon.

Last edited by Zeeper; 10-25-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:19 PM   #128
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Who is Zeeper? I'd like to know what qualifies Zeeper to explain how he/she is related to Subaru? Or is Zeeper just a loyal Subi owner that feels he/she needs to defend them? I like my 2012 Impreza Sport Premium 5 door and it seems to be a great little car for the money. BUT, I also don't thing the mileage claims are correct. Unless of course they determined mileage at 50-55 MPH going down hill and down wind! I can go from the 5,000 foot level to 400 foot level at 65 MPH and the best I get is 35 MPG. Going the opposite direction uphill I get 26 MPG. That averages about 30.5 MPG. Not bad but certainly not near what it should be especially going down hill? Each way was 65 miles. Again, I like the car, just wish they would be a little more conservative when stating mileage for the real world......
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:28 PM   #129
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Who is Zeeper? I'd like to know what qualifies Zeeper to explain how he/she is related to Subaru? Or is Zeeper just a loyal Subi owner that feels he/she needs to defend them? I like my 2012 Impreza Sport Premium 5 door and it seems to be a great little car for the money. BUT, I also don't thing the mileage claims are correct. Unless of course they determined mileage at 50-55 MPH going down hill and down wind! I can go from the 5,000 foot level to 400 foot level at 65 MPH and the best I get is 35 MPG. Going the opposite direction uphill I get 26 MPG. That averages about 30.5 MPG. Not bad but certainly not near what it should be especially going down hill? Each way was 65 miles. Again, I like the car, just wish they would be a little more conservative when stating mileage for the real world......
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:08 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012subisport
Who is Zeeper? I'd like to know what qualifies Zeeper to explain how he/she is related to Subaru? Or is Zeeper just a loyal Subi owner that feels he/she needs to defend them? I like my 2012 Impreza Sport Premium 5 door and it seems to be a great little car for the money. BUT, I also don't thing the mileage claims are correct. Unless of course they determined mileage at 50-55 MPH going down hill and down wind! I can go from the 5,000 foot level to 400 foot level at 65 MPH and the best I get is 35 MPG. Going the opposite direction uphill I get 26 MPG. That averages about 30.5 MPG. Not bad but certainly not near what it should be especially going down hill? Each way was 65 miles. Again, I like the car, just wish they would be a little more conservative when stating mileage for the real world......
Posting that twice made my head hurt.

The EPA certified the tests. The numbers are on your window sticker, and you are achieving what the EPA told you to expect.

The ins and outs of the testing:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

Your mileage may vary:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/why_differ.shtml

Since you think Subaru rigged the test, or fooled the EPA somehow, how about providing something other than a tantrum as evidence?

So far your evidence is confirming what is on your sticker. You are undermining your own case.

Last edited by Zeeper; 10-25-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:32 PM   #131
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Ah, Zeeper......I never said anything was rigged. You are thinking of another forum member. But great job of avoiding the question. The double post happened when I was interrupted by a phone call. Hope it didn't hurt your head too much......and again, it was not me throwing a tantrum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Posting that twice made my head hurt.

The EPA certified the tests. The numbers are on your window sticker, and even if you are on the low end of those numbers you are achieving what the EPA told you to expect.

Since you think it was rigged, how about providing something other than a tantrum as evidence?
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:20 PM   #132
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I don't work for Subaru, I did read (and even save) my window sticker, and I do point out facts when people make strange assertions, such as:
  1. "the mpg rating for this car is not accurate" (it is for most drivers, look at Fuelly, The average driver's MPG has been climbing, not falling, over time, as more drivers enter their data and their engines finally get broken in!)
  2. "Subaru is gaming the EPA" (prove it! You keep asking me to prove that they didn't...)
  3. "the car was built to excell on the EPA test, but cannot achieve those numbers in real world conditions". (it was not panned by the auto enthusiast magazines that reviewed it -- Consumer Reports named it a Top Pick in Small Cars. They must think it drives awful!)

All the evidence points to the fact that the window sticker is accurate, but that nobody read or cares about the fine print on the sticker (which is required by the EPA to be printed on that label, because it is important! That is probably why they printed much of it with BOLD text).

Your post told us that your 130 mile drive in the mountains returned 30.5 mpg, right in line with what the EPA sticker told you to expect. Sorry that you wanted it to be better, driving uphill uses more gas. If you have a CVT you may be able to increase your downhill MPG numbers by reducing engine braking with the paddle shifters, go to the correct Impreza MPG thread, because they discussed this already. I have a 5speed. If you have a 5 speed, keep it in gear and don't coast in neutral to increase your downhill MPG's (also discussed in the correct thread...)

All of this does not make the numbers provided by the EPA incorrect, nor does it rise to the level of a warranty or SOA issue.

Looking over the earliest posts on this thread (opened in February 2012), it was started by a prospective buyer who wanted more information about MPG.

Apparently he lacked the ability to search, because there was a thread already open (January 2012) with new Impreza owners discussing MPG!

This entire thread is a redundant conversation started by someone who didn't even own an Impreza yet and has NOTHING to do with the Impreza warranty or SOA.

Notice how no one here actually mentioned filing any sort of claim against Subaru, SOA or their dealer for their MPG's?

You should be discussing this in the "2012 Impreza Owners -- MPG Thread". I'll be over in the Impreza Forum "2012 Impreza Owners -- MPG Thread", should you want to argue more with me. Having the same conversation in two places is stupid.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...294777&page=90

Last edited by Zeeper; 10-26-2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:21 PM   #133
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:46 PM   #134
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How do you know the EPA certified the tests? Where's the evidence of that? Maybe they were in the 86% that the EPA didn't test? Your arguments are weak, but somehow you think if you keep repeating them they will get stronger. Sorry, but if the vast majority are below the average, the numbers are skewed.

But you say the EPA certified the tests. Where is your proof of that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
The EPA certified the tests. The numbers are on your window sticker, and you are achieving what the EPA told you to expect.

The ins and outs of the testing:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

Your mileage may vary:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/why_differ.shtml

Since you think Subaru rigged the test, or fooled the EPA somehow, how about providing something other than a tantrum as evidence?

So far your evidence is confirming what is on your sticker. You are undermining your own case.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:06 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
How do you know the EPA certified the tests? Where's the evidence of that? Maybe they were in the 86% that the EPA didn't test? Your arguments are weak, but somehow you think if you keep repeating them they will get stronger. Sorry, but if the vast majority are below the average, the numbers are skewed.

But you say the EPA certified the tests. Where is your proof of that?
Let Me Google That For You

You are a moron.

The fact that those numbers are printed on the window sticker that came with your new car by definition means that they are EPA certified numbers (look at the label, did you miss the little EPA seal of approval?)

Car manufacturers are required to test the car according to the EPA guidelines and they must print those CERTIFIED numbers on the window sticker. It is not a voluntary program.

I never said that the EPA performed the test. In fact I pointed you to their site where they tell you that they only perform a portion of the tests.

That does not mean Subaru, or any other new car manufacturer, is gaming the system. If Subaru was able to game the system, don't you think GM or Ford would do the same thing.

Imagine, a 40mpg Chevy Suburban! That would sell like hotcakes!

Since you are obviously a conspiracy theorist, don't you find it a bit odd that the average Fuelly driver is achieving the EPA estimated Combined Fuel Economy?

Weird how that correlates with the fake made up numbers printed on the EPA mandated Window Sticker...

Now prove to us that Subaru made up those numbers and fooled the EPA. Once you do, you might want to file a complaint with the EPA, 'cause Subaru really pulled the wool over your eyes.

Let us know when you hear back from the EPA how wrong we are, and how right you are.

You have the burden of proof, my proof is printed right on the window sticker that came with my car, along with my lifetime combined fuel average of 28.3mpg (just above the window sticker expected Combined Fuel Economy number of 28, and I rarely drive on the highway!)

Last edited by Zeeper; 11-01-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:54 PM   #136
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Gonna have to concur with Zeeper on that last post. The EPA doesn't do most of the testing (they only pull a sample to ensure compliance). It isn't like the EPA has some test track where every car is run under the exact same conditions - they are tested by measuring exhaust output while the car is run on rollers using computed acceleration and braking. Of course, I'm not terribly happy with my performance MPG wise as most of my driving IS highway (just not long enough typically to warm up...which if you check the EPA tests you'll see they don't consider a car to be warmed up for a good 10 minutes/miles of driving either).
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:25 PM   #137
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Nope. I still do not see where the EPA certified the tests. Just because they put the EPA emblem on the sticker doesn't mean the test results are certified as accurate by the EPA. You're going to have to do better than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Let Me Google That For You

You are a moron.

The fact that those numbers are printed on the window sticker that came with your new car by definition means that they are EPA certified numbers (look at the label, did you miss the little EPA seal of approval?)

Car manufacturers are required to test the car according to the EPA guidelines and they must print those CERTIFIED numbers on the window sticker. It is not a voluntary program.

I never said that the EPA performed the test. In fact I pointed you to their site where they tell you that they only perform a portion of the tests.

That does not mean Subaru, or any other new car manufacturer, is gaming the system. If Subaru was able to game the system, don't you think GM or Ford would do the same thing.

Imagine, a 40mpg Chevy Suburban! That would sell like hotcakes!

Since you are obviously a conspiracy theorist, don't you find it a bit odd that the average Fuelly driver is achieving the EPA estimated Combined Fuel Economy?

Weird how that correlates with the fake made up numbers printed on the EPA mandated Window Sticker...

Now prove to us that Subaru made up those numbers and fooled the EPA. Once you do, you might want to file a complaint with the EPA, 'cause Subaru really pulled the wool over your eyes.

Let us know when you hear back from the EPA how wrong we are, and how right you are.

You have the burden of proof, my proof is printed right on the window sticker that came with my car, along with my lifetime combined fuel average of 28.3mpg (just above the window sticker expected Combined Fuel Economy number of 28, and I rarely drive on the highway!)
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:28 PM   #138
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I'll presume that auto manufacturers do not purposely mislead the EPA, not due to goodwill on their part, but more likely due to fear that that EPA could stop them from selling their new cars and trucks in the United States on the spot.

Yes, the EPA, your evil government at work.

Maybe that is why there is no evidence it has ever happened.

Needless to say, you think Subaru gamed the EPA, go report them. Let us know when you have the proof of your theory.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:04 PM   #139
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So you think the EPA might stop Subaru from selling cars in the US because they optimized the engine in one of their cars to maximize mpg on their tests instead of in reality?

All I know is I have two cars, rated the same highway mpg. One gets 7-9 mpg better than the other on the highway, and the higher actual mpg car gets right at what the highway mpg rating is on the highway.

There are many other similar stories of low mpg - your personal attacks notwithstanding. Why do you feel you have to attack those who wonder about that?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
I'll presume that auto manufacturers do not purposely mislead the EPA, not due to goodwill on their part, but more likely due to fear that that EPA could stop them from selling their new cars and trucks in the United States on the spot.

Yes, the EPA, your evil government at work.

Maybe that is why there is no evidence it has ever happened.

Needless to say, you think Subaru gamed the EPA, go report them. Let us know when you have the proof of your theory.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:15 PM   #140
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Let me know when the EPA gets back to you, among the two of us you are the one with the unproven theory.

Subaru fooled the EPA, and also Consumer Reports, they recommended the car as a best buy in its segment.

That crazy Subaru, they're foolin' everyone!
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:03 PM   #141
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Thanks for the idea. I checked Consumer Reports. They do their own mpg testing. I compared all 5 imports that got 27 mpg combined in their tests. That would be the Impreza 27/36, the Toyota Matrix 21/29, Volkswagen GTI 21/31, Kia Forte 22/32, and Volkswagen Jetta 22/33.

Compared to the average of the other 4, the Impreza's ratings of 27/36 were *inflated* by over 25% city, and over 15% highway.

QED


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Let me know when the EPA gets back to you, among the two of us you are the one with the unproven theory.

Subaru fooled the EPA, and also Consumer Reports, they recommended the car as a best buy in its segment.

That crazy Subaru, they're foolin' everyone!
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:04 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
There are many other similar stories of low mpg - your personal attacks notwithstanding. Why do you feel you have to attack those who wonder about that?
I haven't read a personal attack from Zeeper directed at you in this thread at all (ok, i forgot the moron comment...but this is a car forum, you've gotta grow some skin!). He has been arguing that your assertions don't have a leg to stand on, and I think he is right for the most part.

With that said, I actually agree with you that this car is overall not living upto the MPG ratings on the sticker - but it isn't the first car to do so, and it won't be the last. There is only 1 reason this car is skewing to bad mpg - after 10000 miles, it is clearly the cold starts that kill it. MPGs will drop 2-3 ticks for me within a mile of our house, and it takes my entire commute (22 miles, all flat highway, little traffic) to make up that initial mpg loss in the first mile.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:09 PM   #143
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I just looked again @ Fuelly. Over 1.2 million miles tracked for the 2012 Impreza (197 cars), and the overall average MPG is 28.1.

My car is not on Fuelly any more, because I track my mileage on my iPhone using Gas Cubby, my average is 28.36 mpg, with a minimum of 24.79 and a maximum of 33.79.

In other words, all numbers for my car are right on par (actually mostly just above) the sticker numbers.

For 2013 the new EPA sticker features the Combined Fuel Economy as the central number.

Maybe that will make you happier? In any case, the Consumer Reports review mentions that they are impressed with the fuel economy for this 'AWD' vehicle.

Based upon member reports on the MPG thread in the Impreza forum (where this discussion belongs) City driving in the cold is an MPG killer. If you live in the city and have a short commute, buy a prius.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:56 PM   #144
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The Impreza has 3 differentials; front, center, rear. FWD cars have 1 diff. A diff is pretty much a metal box with gears in it filled with heavy gear oil. This gear oil causes a ton of drive line drag. This gear oil is not heated up by anything other than the kinetic energy and friction caused by driving the car.

So obviously, given that it has 3 times as many diffs, the awd system is going to suffer mpg wise until all that fluid heats up. Comparing real world mpg to FWD cars is never going to be in the imp's favor. It's not so much that the test numbers are "inflated" as the test doesn't include the conditions where the impreza is most inefficient. That is not subaru's fault, and they did not "game" the test. The test just unfortunately does not reflect the real world very well for a vehicle with an awd system designed like subaru's.

The "psuedo"- awd systems that exist in most transverse engine layout cars might line up more closely with epa tests since they are pretty much FWD all the time.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:19 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabarupp
The Impreza has 3 differentials; front, center, rear. FWD cars have 1 diff. A diff is pretty much a metal box with gears in it filled with heavy gear oil. This gear oil causes a ton of drive line drag. This gear oil is not heated up by anything other than the kinetic energy and friction caused by driving the car.

So obviously, given that it has 3 times as many diffs, the awd system is going to suffer mpg wise until all that fluid heats up. Comparing real world mpg to FWD cars is never going to be in the imp's favor. It's not so much that the test numbers are "inflated" as the test doesn't include the conditions where the impreza is most inefficient. That is not subaru's fault, and they did not "game" the test. The test just unfortunately does not reflect the real world very well for a vehicle with an awd system designed like subaru's.

The "psuedo"- awd systems that exist in most transverse engine layout cars might line up more closely with epa tests since they are pretty much FWD all the time.
Still doesn't excuse the window sticker to real world on my Impreza with the 3 differentials.

Seeing 23 mpg when it says 27 city sticker and 26.1 computer.
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:00 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrysImpreza View Post
Still doesn't excuse the window sticker to real world on my Impreza with the 3 differentials.

Seeing 23 mpg when it says 27 city sticker and 26.1 computer.
Quote:
It's not so much that the test numbers are "inflated" as the test doesn't include the conditions where the impreza is most inefficient. That is not subaru's fault, and they did not "game" the test. The test just unfortunately does not reflect the real world very well for a vehicle with an awd system designed like subaru's.
Um, did you read this part???
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:38 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrysImpreza View Post
Still doesn't excuse the window sticker to real world on my Impreza with the 3 differentials.

Seeing 23 mpg when it says 27 city sticker and 26.1 computer.
I know the small print offers no consolation, but the mileage you are reporting is within the range printed on your window sticker.

How is this a warranty issue?

By the way, the 2012 Impreza 5 Speed only has two differentials (or are you including the viscous coupling system?)
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:42 PM   #148
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http://www.news1130.com/news/world/a...cles-in-canada

Good news, a manufacturer just got busted by the EPA for overstating MPG's

Bad news, it was Hyundai, not Subaru.

Other bad news: Fuelly participants have now tracked 1.2 million miles of driving with the new Impreza, and the Combined Fuel Economy is currently 28.1 and has been climbing.

Since a 5 speed is listed at 28, and a CVT is listed at 30, that number is pretty damn accurate.

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Old 11-02-2012, 03:48 PM   #149
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You're welcome, Zeeper.
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:48 PM   #150
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It's still a differential. It just has an integrated viscous coupler for limited slip.
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