Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday December 24, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning > Open Source Reflashes

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-06-2012, 08:17 PM   #1
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default First tune tuning questions - Vf Bugeye

Hey, I brought my car out today to finish up some of my tuning, and ran into a couple oddities, and wonder what you people think, and what advice you have.

Car and Mods:
2002 WRX 4EAT Automatic
Perrin inlet
Vf34
STI TMIC
Pink injectors
STI uppipe
Megan catless downpipe
STI Catback
TGV deletes
Walbro 255
Hallman Pro-RX MBC

1) I have tip - in scaled so that its blipping the throttle nets between -1.5 to +1.5 AFR points away from target for a split second, depending on engine speed, load, etc. Is this acceptable?

2) I had scaled my MAF for CL operation, but noticed when I started messing with timing, my MAF scaling / correction seemed to get skewed , is this normal?

3) In My OL fueling tables, I have to target 10.94 to get a 11.2, would that be acceptable, or do I really need to scale the MAF?

4) Right now I have CL / OL delay zero'd on the last column of every set (I.e. A4, B4, C4, D4), and am getting BAD knock (drops IAM from 16 to 8-9) at PTFB around 9+ psi, 1.3 - 1.8 ish load and in closed loop. However in open loop, I see no knock in those areas.

So what would your recomandations be for my delays or timing reduction? I would set them to zero, but I have heard it effectively disables A/F learning and kills mileage.

Also, no knock anywhere else right now. Boost is set around 15.5 psi.

5) As far as timing, I know some recommend going to the knock threshold at every PSI, and back it off 1-2*, but how much difference will I see every day with driving? I'm looking for good power up top, with safety and decent power down low. Right now, I am using a version of someone else's timing map that had a 16G, but that I tweaked.

I was thinking of tuning out any knock, and then just concentrate on the 15+ psi areas, and smooth in the lower part.

Let me know what all of you think! Any help is greatly appreciated, I am still new to tuning, but am very motivated to get a good map on my car.

I will probably post a few more questions in the next few days as I keep tuning, but would like to set up a good map in time for some good spring driving
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 11:51 AM   #2
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

Dont be afraid if you can only answer one of them. Any help is appreciated!
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 07:09 PM   #3
romanlynch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 126684
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lima, OH
Vehicle:
02 wrx
PLATINUM silver baby

Default

when you change the timing the afr's will change because your changing when it sparks in relation to when the valves open/close.

i tried 0'ing the ol/cl transition but went back to stock as i didnt know what i was doing

search for learning view, it might be on here but i think its over on romraider.com. that will show you in % how close your MAF is scaled to actual. from what i gather +/- 5% is acceptable but the closer to 0 the better.

theres a lot of good info on romraider.com, the sticky here has good info for beginners as well. just read up before you change anything, and a AFR gauge wouldnt hurt either.
romanlynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 07:44 PM   #4
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

Thanks! I have a AFR gauge, an AEM. Thats how I determined my OL table needed to be 10.94 to get my target of 11.2. It has definetely helped a lot, especially with tip-in.

And at least I'm not going crazy with seeing my MAF scaling skewed. I guess I'm just going to have to touch that up last.

And you suggest putting full delays back in and just brining back timing enough to supress knock in those areas? Guess thats my next plan of action. We'll see how it works out!
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 08:15 PM   #5
Black94Snake
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 274499
Join Date: Feb 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: RI
Vehicle:
1994 5.8T Cobra
565rwhp @ 10psi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
Hey, I brought my car out today to finish up some of my tuning, and ran into a couple oddities, and wonder what you people think, and what advice you have.
I would like to look at your tune. From there I will post responces to your questions with valid data references.
Black94Snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2012, 06:37 PM   #6
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

I will post up a tune and some logs in the next couple days. I still have a couple issues I'm working out, then when I'm close I'll send it out and see what you all think
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 02:32 AM   #7
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

Thoughts in no particular order...

Tip-in is very hard to get right. RomRaider is barely fast enough to capture it in the logs in the first place. That said, +/- 1.5 sounds a bit much. If the engine is stumbling, it definitely needs fixing. If the engine isn't stumbling, I'd still work on it, but it wouldn't be a super high priority.

I haven't noticed any issues with timing changes causing AFR changes, and I don't see why one would affect the other. I suspect there's something else going on that's affecting your AFR. How much variation do you see from run to run without any tuning changes, and how much did you see from timing?

For over a year I was getting 11:1 AFR even though my table was calling for 11.2. Not a big deal. It ran great, I just had other issues I was more interested in.

I run zero OL/CL delays. It does not force open loop. It only affects mileage a lot if you spent a lot of time stabbing the throttle and then letting off, so you transition into boost very frequently. Who does that? I didn't notice any impact on mileage.

Try completely zero-ing your delays and see if the boost-onset knock goes away.

I run timing just below the knock threshold at about wastegate boost and above. I don't see a reason to run less, that's just going to mean higher EGTs during part-throttle acceleration.
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 10:29 AM   #8
romanlynch
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 126684
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lima, OH
Vehicle:
02 wrx
PLATINUM silver baby

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW
I run zero OL/CL delays. It does not force open loop. It only affects mileage a lot if you spent a lot of time stabbing the throttle and then letting off, so you transition into boost very frequently. Who does that? I didn't notice any impact on mileage.
As I stated already I didnt know what I was doing when I zero'd the ol/cl delays, but when I shut the car off to get gas and started it back up my afr's were in the 17's. I hadnt changed any other part of my tune. Apparently I didnt do something right, what could I check if I wanted to try it again? Are there any informative posts on that topic I can read?
romanlynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2012, 05:29 PM   #9
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

Thank you everyon for the help! The process can get frustating and tedious at times.

So here are the updates: I put all my delays back in for CL/OL, and dropped throttle angle before delay from around 60% to 40%, and dropped timing a bit in many spaces. Now the car stays in CL until around 9psi, where before I would ecounter knock.

As far as top end timing, I brought boost up all the way (20psi), found the knock threshold there, and backed it off 2*.

I notied from about 10 - 20 psi, load would not change THAT much, maybe .3, and load changed more with outside air temp. So, I smoothed in timing back from there.

I am load scaled up to 3.0, and am hitting about 2.6 to 2.7 at peak.

My concerns now are, like NSFW says, tip - in, as it seems impossible to get right. And sometimes it seems perfect (.5 change on WBO2), and later in the trip, I will see 2 afr points change. Romraider barely picks it up, I can just see it on the WBO2 and its irksome.

No real stumbling, the car runs great overall, better in fact than the protune map I had on before the last set of Mods. Only stumbling occurs cruising around 1800 rpm and letting off the throttle in 1st gear. Almost feels tranny related, but cannot confirm.
Also, the car shifts at 6500rpm, when it should shift at 7000. The car has a MT ECU in it, not sure if thats whats causing it, or if I have a tune or tranny issue. I assumed all the 16 bit ECUs are interchangable.

I can send people my map if they want me to (as I need to know if I royally screwed up, and I dont know it) and here a couple crappy logs I took.

Also, no knock shown in learning view, and the MAF seems to be behaving again.

First run at knock threshold - 20psi. 13-14* peak TQ to 21* redline; 11.0 afr to 10.8 redline

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...MRTJZeWc#gid=0

2nd run immediately after (Little bit of FBKC)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...uVVdXWFE#gid=0

Random driving around after I tweaked tip in and dropped timing at redline and other places. Check my tip - in on this one.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...uVVdXWFE#gid=0
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2012, 10:29 PM   #10
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

I've smoothed my timing and fueling maps out, and it has seemed to drive a bit nicer I'm feeling the final tune is within reach

Still trying to figure out why she won't shift at redline though...
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2012, 09:13 AM   #11
Black94Snake
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 274499
Join Date: Feb 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: RI
Vehicle:
1994 5.8T Cobra
565rwhp @ 10psi

Default

Post your tune.
Black94Snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2012, 10:34 PM   #12
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

I haven't had the time to really mess with the tune until tonight.

I'll post the tune once I get it where I think its good enough, rather than have you guys see a piece of junk

Anyways, car is dailed in well overall. The Timing editor helped a ton.

Issues now are: car has low #'s on the romraider virtual dyno, something like 250whp 230tq. Also, power curve looks normal until 6200 where my PCC's disappear, and the torque and horsepower rocket up BUT I don't want to get rid of my PCC's, and noone else seems to have this issue with this...

Maybe bring timing up flat right before 6200 or something? I'm not sure

Could it the be automatic?

Ohh and Tip - in I swear is impossible to get right
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2012, 11:16 PM   #13
Black94Snake
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 274499
Join Date: Feb 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: RI
Vehicle:
1994 5.8T Cobra
565rwhp @ 10psi

Default

I don't think you quite understand why we were asking for your tune. I really have no interest in it... I was just trying to help you spot things that you may not have seen. I'm glad you are making progress, but you should let people help you when they offer it.
Black94Snake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2012, 11:28 PM   #14
Big Joe
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 3722
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: So. Cali.
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
Silver

Default

Quote:
Ohh and Tip - in I swear is impossible to get right
For tip in did you try stock injector size divided by new injector size times stock values?
Big Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 11:12 AM   #15
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
For tip in did you try stock injector size divided by new injector size times stock values?
I have, and it goes really lean (17's) with slight throttle changes. I have bumped it up down low, but its still inconsistent overall
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2012, 08:20 PM   #16
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

Tip in now nets between 14.1 - 15.5 on the wideband I think thats as good as it's going to get.

One slight knock area on learning view, nothing major at all.

A/F learning is in the 3's and 4's, but MAF is virtually dead stright at 2.5%.

Maybe give it a kick with some timing up top and she's almost there

Its a great feeling getting it this close after all this effort.
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 08:25 PM   #17
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

Bumping this back up!

Car is only seeing 230 -240 whp on the romraider dyno

Car is running 19-20 psi, 14* at peak torque to about 20.5* at redline, 11.2 AFR tapering to 11.0.

Is this about right? Seems like the car should be making quite a bit more power.
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 02:42 AM   #18
03WRXer
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 142905
Join Date: Mar 2007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
Bumping this back up!

Car is only seeing 230 -240 whp on the romraider dyno

Car is running 19-20 psi, 14* at peak torque to about 20.5* at redline, 11.2 AFR tapering to 11.0.

Is this about right? Seems like the car should be making quite a bit more power.

Post your tune.
03WRXer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 10:01 AM   #19
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

^^ I can PM if you ask. So far anyone who PMs me saying they'll give me suggestions if they see the tune, in the end can really give me nothing. And plus seeing the tune wouldn't really help, as I gave you all the factors for power making.

And my fueling table is something like 10.7 tapering to 10.5, but really will produce a 11.2 tapering to 11.0, like I stated, so it really wouldn't help you.
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2012, 06:06 PM   #20
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

you have an auto...they usually read lower.

and you may have some other things going on like spark plug gap, coil packs fading, tired motor, etc.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2012, 10:42 AM   #21
BlazeRex
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 268354
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Massachusetts
Vehicle:
02 WRX 05 LGT
Slow Automatics

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
you have an auto...they usually read lower.

and you may have some other things going on like spark plug gap, coil packs fading, tired motor, etc.
Thanks! At least I don't feel quite as bad. I recently put in one step colder plugs, which ,may or may not be causing lower power etc. I will take a look at that though, I forget what I had them gapped at.

Thanks again Phatron
BlazeRex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2012, 10:11 PM   #22
DSRX2005
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 271681
Join Date: Jan 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Franklin, NH
Vehicle:
2013 WRB Subaru WRX
AJW Performance

Default

It's your cummujin, or maybe a leaky spark tube.. Bring it by my house Eric, i'll take a look.
DSRX2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
04 WRX - VF 48 P&P tuned/ P&L Motorsports Rudywrx04 Proven Power Bragging 26 08-05-2009 06:05 PM
Relocating to bay area from NY - Tuning questions - 91 octane wtf CynicalCS84 Bay Area Impreza Club Forum -- BAIC 3 12-31-2008 07:12 PM
05 LGT 389whp/344wtq - My first time tuning! socalLGT Proven Power Bragging 58 09-11-2007 04:01 PM
Old School Stage IV Ecutek tuned Bug Eye with VF turbo Dyno Flash Proven Power Bragging 13 08-29-2007 06:26 PM
Tune Up Question For My BugEye MaddSubieLove Service & Maintenance 14 11-02-2006 01:07 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.