Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday November 21, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Electrical & Lighting

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-19-2002, 04:57 PM   #1
daytontp
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 9797
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South Carolina
Vehicle:
2005 Honda S2000
New Formula Red

Default U.S. DOT to Ban Use of HID Headlights

http://dms3000.dot.gov/docimages/pdf82/176157_web.pdf

Note: This is a 66 Page *.pdf document.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
daytontp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 05:12 PM   #2
lawn boy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 16345
Join Date: Mar 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: WashPA
Vehicle:
2003 WRX- Sold
E60 BMW 545i

Default



thats outrageous
lawn boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 05:23 PM   #3
Stanley
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7374
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: North Bay, SFCA
Vehicle:
2007 Grandpamobile
BlingBlingBlue

Thumbs up

It's about time. Those lights blind oncoming traffic.
Stanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 05:29 PM   #4
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

I'll read the meat of it tonight. But it looks like basically they did one-on-one intereviews with elderly americans to determine what is glaring. THey even say there evidence is anecdotal, but they still talk like this is proven. Also, many of the elderly people saw any bluish light, no matter how intense it was, as glare. Meanwhile in Europe, nobody seems to mind. Let's see if there any scientific evidence in the doc tonight.
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 05:37 PM   #5
Scoobie Doogie
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 9805
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Dillsburg @ Bobs coffee shop
Vehicle:
2009 Bimmah 135 eye
Silvuh

Default

Hey if the light bothers geezers that much they shouldn't be driving at night anyway.
Scoobie Doogie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 05:37 PM   #6
caged1
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 13932
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Coudersport PA, around Retards
Vehicle:
1998 GM6-5MT+09XT
Brilliant Red

Thumbs up

It is about time!!! I can't remember how many times I almost ran off the road Because Duma$$ sportin HID lights blinded To me there a hazard they need to get rid of them the sooner the better.:monkey: HID lights
caged1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 05:40 PM   #7
Layman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3717
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Army of Northern Virginia
Vehicle:
2011 Swagger Wagon
bikes with pedals

Default

That isn't a DOT document. As far as I can tell, it's a document written by a consultant for a study commisioned by the DOT.

Don't jump to conclusions.
Layman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 06:09 PM   #8
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

It's just wierd that the rest of the world uses HID's with no problem. I don't run them, but that's becuase I can't afford it!
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 06:42 PM   #9
Javier
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 19346
Join Date: May 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Dirty all the time...
Vehicle:
2003 MBP WRX
Wiseco / Oliver EJ257

Default

I used to think HID's were pointless (didn't have a problem with them as they never seemed too bright to me) until I drove a friend's Acura TL.... the difference is amazing. The whiter light produced makes everything much clearer. I actually noticed that the beam doesn't project as far, but because it is brighter and clearer, nearly the entire illuminated area is more visible and thus more usable.
Javier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 06:54 PM   #10
daytontp
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 9797
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South Carolina
Vehicle:
2005 Honda S2000
New Formula Red

Default

First off, I am not for or against HIDs. I have never driven a car with them, and do not have a problem with the glare they produce.

Well, the problem is not with the fact that any car has HIDs that cause a glare problem. It is the design of the headlight unit itself. The BMW HID design does not produce glare, where as the Audi HID design produce a large amount of glare. But, if a few car manufacturers have units that produce glare and the rest do not. Then they focus on the bad units to base there study on. Kinda like the 1 trouble maker in class that ruins it for everyone else in the class.

This is a government study done for the NHTSA & DOT. That is why the study document is so freakin big.
daytontp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 07:04 PM   #11
daytontp
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 9797
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South Carolina
Vehicle:
2005 Honda S2000
New Formula Red

Default

daytontp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 07:39 PM   #12
HongKongBeef
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1574
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: #finklses @ EFnet
Vehicle:
2008 OBXT
Black

Default

i love my HID's and will attack anyone that tried to take them from me.
HongKongBeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 08:33 PM   #13
gypsymoth
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 6072
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Torrance or Redlands, CA
Vehicle:
01 Silver 2.5 RS
04 Silver WRX STi

Default

From the PDF:

Quote:
Vehicles with high-mounted head-
lamps currently enjoy an “unfair ”see-
ing-distance advantage that comes at the expense of severe glare to drivers
of lower vehicles. Linking aim declina-
tion to headlamp mounting height is
an easy and effective way to materially
reduce glare from high-mounted head-
lamps,and will have an equalizing ef-
fect upon the seeing distance available
to drivers of all vehicles.See Attach-
ment 3,pages 17-21.
Damn SUV's!

Chieh
--
Chieh's Web - http://Chieh.CameraHacker.com/
gypsymoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 08:40 PM   #14
gypsymoth
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 6072
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Torrance or Redlands, CA
Vehicle:
01 Silver 2.5 RS
04 Silver WRX STi

Default

This document does not ban HID headlamps, but decides what to do about the un-controlled HID lamp usage in US:

Quote:
Question 6:Should the U.S.adopt the HID glare control measures of automatic leveling and washing that have been adopted by Europe?Please identify the data and analyses that support your views.What costs would be incurred to do so?
Chieh
gypsymoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 09:05 PM   #15
gypsymoth
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 6072
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Torrance or Redlands, CA
Vehicle:
01 Silver 2.5 RS
04 Silver WRX STi

Default

After reading the "Recommendation" section of that PDF (Page 39 of "Where Does the Glare Come From? / Page 57 of the PDF), I don't see any mentioning of banning HID lamps. There are many good recommendation on how to make HID more glare-friendly in future vehicles.

After reading the article, I think there are many good reasons why HID should become standard among all vehicles . . . making HID mods pointless. Maybe people would start modding their car with old yellow bulbs. 8-)

Chieh
gypsymoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2002, 09:36 PM   #16
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

Yeah, bascially the recommendations were to change the US spec to be more like European and Japanese standards which use more of the light for sight and less for glare. They want to make all hids auto leveling and the beam angle dependant on height. I didn't know trucks and SUVs in other countries had a height dependant declination angle. Good ideas ...
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 12:48 AM   #17
daytontp
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 9797
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South Carolina
Vehicle:
2005 Honda S2000
New Formula Red

Default

Well, if you ask me the US DOT will ban them. Because all they can do is screw something good up. Like a steel ball with a rubber hammer. Just think of all the good cars overseas we od not get in the US because of the DOT.

For Example:
1. Porsche will not sell the 911 GT3 in the US because the DOT wants them to change the bumper height less than 2 CM. And Porsche is not going to do it.
2. There are several Turbo Deisel engine not offered here because the grade of Deisel fuel we use in the US is subpar to that of what they use in Europe.
3. Panoramic side view mirrors are illegal in the US. These are the mirror you find on many German cars. They are flat on 3/4 of the mirror and the outside 1/4 curves away from the car.
4. I am not going to argue this one, but the emissions in the US are striker than anywhere else. Case in point '02 & '03 WRX, 3 Cats, 1 Resonator, 1 Muffler and some other black box in the back.
5. Clutch/Starter Lockout switch. What happens if you need to move the car with the starter to get it out of danger.
daytontp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 12:58 AM   #18
Wheels
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5410
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Stillwater, NY
Vehicle:
2008 BMW 335XI
Black

Default

Q) why d european countries not have a problem with HID's?

A) Most european countries spend countless millions on lighting streets at night. In England for example a law was passed years ago that by 2010 all Motorways where to be lit. Which reduces glear 100X. And another reason is only the USA has such a large number of SUV's to the number of cars.
Wheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 02:12 AM   #19
Glockperfection
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 10135
Join Date: Sep 2001
Vehicle:
MY02 IMPREZA WRX
platinum Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by daytontp
3. Panoramic side view mirrors are illegal in the US. These are the mirror you find on many German cars. They are flat on 3/4 of the mirror and the outside 1/4 curves away from the car.

Actually I seen them on my friend's Saab
Glockperfection is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 09:57 AM   #20
daytontp
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 9797
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South Carolina
Vehicle:
2005 Honda S2000
New Formula Red

Default

Were they stock or did he buy them and install them later. I have them on my WRX, and I bought them afterwards.
daytontp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 10:47 AM   #21
mtb_dude
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12619
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LI, NY
Vehicle:
02 WRX Wagon
#47 SM w/RA gears

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Wheels
Q) why d european countries not have a problem with HID's?

Also, according to the doc, the beam patterns on Euro spec lights are more focused and spill less intense light to oncoming drivers. There's two problems I think in the US. Unregulated HIDs and HID knockoffs including HID-look bulbs that throw even more glare, and SUVs that have the same beam angle as cars which puts the light right in my friggin eyes! Grrr :monkey:
mtb_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 10:54 AM   #22
STR8OUT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 15533
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: W.C., PA - taco heaven
Vehicle:
2010 Dodge Ram Hemi
boat, dirt bikes, bobcat

Default

They better not ban them

I will take that glare for the cool look of HID. I was planning on ordering some Muchullas (<--Spell check) for my STI lights.

STR8OUT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 11:48 AM   #23
gtguy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2184
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Highland Park, Ill., USA
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT wagon
Platinum Silver Metallic

Default

It isn't about selfishness, it's about safety. If some blinded senior runs into your new car because your HIDs caused them to lose control, what price your fancy lights now?

I was contemplating HIDs, but upon realizing how well my Prodrive headlights work, I'll spend my money on something else, thank you.

European cars, for the most part, and certainly if they have HIDs, have projector lenses. There are good and bad ways to design projectors, as evinced by (good) Mercedes and BMW, and (bad) Audi and Acura, the latter who persists in putting HIDs in reflector housings.

European roads are indeed lit much better, which is why their headlamps tend to have such a sharp cutoff. They just don't have to light as much of the road. That high, wide DOT pattern is some of the reason HIDs in the States are such an issue.

Even were U.S.-spec cars to get the leveling switches that every European car has, think about how many people over here would forget to lower their lights. Heck, think about how many people here don't even have their headlights properly adjusted?

While banning them would seem draconian, it really is a safety issue, even if it doesn't affect any of us. Remember, we aren't always going to be young (or relatively so, in my case). It's never a bad thing to have compassion.

Much of the difference that people see with HID is indeed attributable to the whiter light that is available. But as with any spectrum color change, that whiter light comes with downsides, like decreased effectiveness and increased glare in the rain, and the like.

We haven't heard the last of this one, and banning HIDs seems as silly as mandating digital television, but...

Kevin
gtguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 11:49 AM   #24
gtguy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 2184
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Highland Park, Ill., USA
Vehicle:
2005 Legacy GT wagon
Platinum Silver Metallic

Default

Never mind my palsy...

Kevin

Last edited by gtguy; 08-20-2002 at 01:23 PM.
gtguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2002, 12:53 PM   #25
caged1
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 13932
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Coudersport PA, around Retards
Vehicle:
1998 GM6-5MT+09XT
Brilliant Red

Default

My question is the longterm effects of these lights on vision. Having to look at these things in on coming traffic countless times I have to wonder if this is affecting my vision in some way. IMO is no different than staring at the arc in electric welding and everyone knows that is no good for the eyes.
caged1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Q: Used 04STI hid headlight. Power_Getter Electrical & Lighting 1 09-21-2005 10:20 PM
D.O.T. to ban use of HID headlights?? eric m. Southern California Impreza Club Forum -- SCIC 13 08-26-2002 04:16 PM
anyone know where to buy the stock HID headlights? victorng Newbies & FAQs 2 04-30-2002 11:01 PM
Convert fogs to DRL's instead of the headlights? Fubaru Interior & Exterior Modification 4 10-20-2001 05:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.