U.S. DOT to Ban Use of HID Headlights

daytontp · 08-19-2002, 04:57 PM

http://dms3000.dot.gov/docimages/pdf82/176157_web.pdf

Note: This is a 66 Page *.pdf document.

lawn boy · 08-19-2002, 05:12 PM

thats outrageous

Stanley · 08-19-2002, 05:23 PM

It's about time. Those lights blind oncoming traffic.

mtb_dude · 08-19-2002, 05:29 PM

I'll read the meat of it tonight. But it looks like basically they did one-on-one intereviews with elderly americans to determine what is glaring. THey even say there evidence is anecdotal, but they still talk like this is proven.

Also, many of the elderly people saw any bluish light, no matter how intense it was, as glare. Meanwhile in Europe, nobody seems to mind. Let's see if there any scientific evidence in the doc tonight.

Scoobie Doogie · 08-19-2002, 05:37 PM

Hey if the light bothers geezers that much they shouldn't be driving at night anyway.

caged1 · 08-19-2002, 05:37 PM

It is about time!!! I can't remember how many times I almost ran off the road Because Duma$$ sportin HID lights blinded To me there a hazard they need to get rid of them the sooner the better.:monkey: HID lights

Layman · 08-19-2002, 05:40 PM

That isn't a DOT document. As far as I can tell, it's a document written by a consultant for a study commisioned by the DOT.

Don't jump to conclusions.

mtb_dude · 08-19-2002, 06:09 PM

It's just wierd that the rest of the world uses HID's with no problem. I don't run them, but that's becuase I can't afford it!

Javier · 08-19-2002, 06:42 PM

I used to think HID's were pointless (didn't have a problem with them as they never seemed too bright to me) until I drove a friend's Acura TL.... the difference is amazing. The whiter light produced makes everything much clearer. I actually noticed that the beam doesn't project as far, but because it is brighter and clearer, nearly the entire illuminated area is more visible and thus more usable.

daytontp · 08-19-2002, 06:54 PM

First off, I am not for or against HIDs. I have never driven a car with them, and do not have a problem with the glare they produce.

Well, the problem is not with the fact that any car has HIDs that cause a glare problem. It is the design of the headlight unit itself. The BMW HID design does not produce glare, where as the Audi HID design produce a large amount of glare. But, if a few car manufacturers have units that produce glare and the rest do not. Then they focus on the bad units to base there study on. Kinda like the 1 trouble maker in class that ruins it for everyone else in the class.

This is a government study done for the NHTSA & DOT. That is why the study document is so freakin big.

daytontp · 08-19-2002, 07:04 PM

More (Shorter) Articles Worth Looking At:
1. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...complaints.htm
2. http://www.4x4wire.com/access/notice...headlights.htm
3. http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/16/pf/autos/safety/
4. http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/buildi...20Day%20May%20'02/Glare&HID%20Headlamps.pdf
5. http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/010927-3.htm
6. http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...56,241&sid=241
7. http://dms3000.dot.gov/docimages/p62/133584.pdf

HongKongBeef · 08-19-2002, 07:39 PM

i love my HID's and will attack anyone that tried to take them from me.

gypsymoth · 08-19-2002, 08:33 PM

From the PDF:

Quote:

Vehicles with high-mounted head-
lamps currently enjoy an “unfair ”see-
ing-distance advantage that comes at the expense of severe glare to drivers
of lower vehicles. Linking aim declina-
tion to headlamp mounting height is
an easy and effective way to materially
reduce glare from high-mounted head-
lamps,and will have an equalizing ef-
fect upon the seeing distance available
to drivers of all vehicles.See Attach-
ment 3,pages 17-21.

Damn SUV's!

Chieh
--
Chieh's Web - http://Chieh.CameraHacker.com/

gypsymoth · 08-19-2002, 08:40 PM

This document does not ban HID headlamps, but decides what to do about the un-controlled HID lamp usage in US:

Quote:

Question 6:Should the U.S.adopt the HID glare control measures of automatic leveling and washing that have been adopted by Europe?Please identify the data and analyses that support your views.What costs would be incurred to do so?

Chieh

gypsymoth · 08-19-2002, 09:05 PM

After reading the "Recommendation" section of that PDF (Page 39 of "Where Does the Glare Come From? / Page 57 of the PDF), I don't see any mentioning of banning HID lamps. There are many good recommendation on how to make HID more glare-friendly in future vehicles.

After reading the article, I think there are many good reasons why HID should become standard among all vehicles . . . making HID mods pointless. Maybe people would start modding their car with old yellow bulbs. 8-)

Chieh

mtb_dude · 08-19-2002, 09:36 PM

Yeah, bascially the recommendations were to change the US spec to be more like European and Japanese standards which use more of the light for sight and less for glare. They want to make all hids auto leveling and the beam angle dependant on height. I didn't know trucks and SUVs in other countries had a height dependant declination angle. Good ideas ...

daytontp · 08-20-2002, 12:48 AM

Well, if you ask me the US DOT will ban them. Because all they can do is screw something good up. Like a steel ball with a rubber hammer. Just think of all the good cars overseas we od not get in the US because of the DOT.

For Example:
1. Porsche will not sell the 911 GT3 in the US because the DOT wants them to change the bumper height less than 2 CM. And Porsche is not going to do it.
2. There are several Turbo Deisel engine not offered here because the grade of Deisel fuel we use in the US is subpar to that of what they use in Europe.
3. Panoramic side view mirrors are illegal in the US. These are the mirror you find on many German cars. They are flat on 3/4 of the mirror and the outside 1/4 curves away from the car.
4. I am not going to argue this one, but the emissions in the US are striker than anywhere else. Case in point '02 & '03 WRX, 3 Cats, 1 Resonator, 1 Muffler and some other black box in the back.
5. Clutch/Starter Lockout switch. What happens if you need to move the car with the starter to get it out of danger.

Wheels · 08-20-2002, 12:58 AM

Q) why d european countries not have a problem with HID's?

A) Most european countries spend countless millions on lighting streets at night. In England for example a law was passed years ago that by 2010 all Motorways where to be lit. Which reduces glear 100X. And another reason is only the USA has such a large number of SUV's to the number of cars.

Glockperfection · 08-20-2002, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by daytontp
3. Panoramic side view mirrors are illegal in the US. These are the mirror you find on many German cars. They are flat on 3/4 of the mirror and the outside 1/4 curves away from the car.

Actually I seen them on my friend's Saab

daytontp · 08-20-2002, 09:57 AM

Were they stock or did he buy them and install them later. I have them on my WRX, and I bought them afterwards.

mtb_dude · 08-20-2002, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wheels
Q) why d european countries not have a problem with HID's?

Also, according to the doc, the beam patterns on Euro spec lights are more focused and spill less intense light to oncoming drivers. There's two problems I think in the US. Unregulated HIDs and HID knockoffs including HID-look bulbs that throw even more glare, and SUVs that have the same beam angle as cars which puts the light right in my friggin eyes! Grrr :monkey:

STR8OUT · 08-20-2002, 10:54 AM

They better not ban them

I will take that glare for the cool look of HID. I was planning on ordering some Muchullas (<--Spell check) for my STI lights.

gtguy · 08-20-2002, 11:48 AM

It isn't about selfishness, it's about safety. If some blinded senior runs into your new car because your HIDs caused them to lose control, what price your fancy lights now?

I was contemplating HIDs, but upon realizing how well my Prodrive headlights work, I'll spend my money on something else, thank you.

European cars, for the most part, and certainly if they have HIDs, have projector lenses. There are good and bad ways to design projectors, as evinced by (good) Mercedes and BMW, and (bad) Audi and Acura, the latter who persists in putting HIDs in reflector housings.

European roads are indeed lit much better, which is why their headlamps tend to have such a sharp cutoff. They just don't have to light as much of the road. That high, wide DOT pattern is some of the reason HIDs in the States are such an issue.

Even were U.S.-spec cars to get the leveling switches that every European car has, think about how many people over here would forget to lower their lights. Heck, think about how many people here don't even have their headlights properly adjusted?

While banning them would seem draconian, it really is a safety issue, even if it doesn't affect any of us. Remember, we aren't always going to be young (or relatively so, in my case). It's never a bad thing to have compassion.

Much of the difference that people see with HID is indeed attributable to the whiter light that is available. But as with any spectrum color change, that whiter light comes with downsides, like decreased effectiveness and increased glare in the rain, and the like.

We haven't heard the last of this one, and banning HIDs seems as silly as mandating digital television, but...

Kevin

gtguy · 08-20-2002, 11:49 AM

Never mind my palsy...

Kevin

caged1 · 08-20-2002, 12:53 PM

My question is the longterm effects of these lights on vision. Having to look at these things in on coming traffic countless times I have to wonder if this is affecting my vision in some way. IMO is no different than staring at the arc in electric welding and everyone knows that is no good for the eyes.

08-19-2002, 04:57 PM	#1
daytontp Scooby Newbie Member#: 9797 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South Carolina Vehicle: 2005 Honda S2000 New Formula Red	U.S. DOT to Ban Use of HID Headlights http://dms3000.dot.gov/docimages/pdf82/176157_web.pdf Note: This is a 66 Page *.pdf document.

08-20-2002, 11:49 AM	#24
gtguy Scooby Guru Member#: 2184 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Highland Park, Ill., USA Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT wagon Platinum Silver Metallic	Never mind my palsy... Kevin Last edited by gtguy; 08-20-2002 at 01:23 PM.

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08-19-2002, 05:12 PM	#2
lawn boy Scooby Specialist Member#: 16345 Join Date: Mar 2002 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: West Virginia University/PghPa Vehicle: 2003 20G'd WRX Sunset Orange Metallic	thats outrageous

08-19-2002, 05:23 PM	#3
Stanley Scooby Specialist Member#: 7374 Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: SF Bay Area Vehicle: 1998 CraptasticCamry A baby poop shade	It's about time. Those lights blind oncoming traffic.

08-19-2002, 05:29 PM	#4
mtb_dude Scooby Specialist Member#: 12619 Join Date: Nov 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: LI, NY Vehicle: 02 WRX Wagon #47 SM w/RA gears	I'll read the meat of it tonight. But it looks like basically they did one-on-one intereviews with elderly americans to determine what is glaring. THey even say there evidence is anecdotal, but they still talk like this is proven. Also, many of the elderly people saw any bluish light, no matter how intense it was, as glare. Meanwhile in Europe, nobody seems to mind. Let's see if there any scientific evidence in the doc tonight.

08-19-2002, 05:37 PM	#5
Scoobie Doogie Scooby Specialist Member#: 9805 Join Date: Aug 2001 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Dillsburg @ Bobs coffee shop Vehicle: 2009 Bimmah 135 eye Silvuh	Hey if the light bothers geezers that much they shouldn't be driving at night anyway.

08-19-2002, 05:37 PM	#6
caged1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 13932 Join Date: Jan 2002 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Coudersport PA, around Retards Vehicle: 1998 GM6-5MT+09XT Brilliant Red	It is about time!!! I can't remember how many times I almost ran off the road Because Duma$$ sportin HID lights blinded To me there a hazard they need to get rid of them the sooner the better.:monkey: HID lights

08-19-2002, 05:40 PM	#7
Layman Scooby Specialist Member#: 3717 Join Date: Jan 2001 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Army of Northern Virginia Vehicle: MKV GTI - tite! bikes with pedals	That isn't a DOT document. As far as I can tell, it's a document written by a consultant for a study commisioned by the DOT. Don't jump to conclusions.

08-19-2002, 06:09 PM	#8
mtb_dude Scooby Specialist Member#: 12619 Join Date: Nov 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: LI, NY Vehicle: 02 WRX Wagon #47 SM w/RA gears	It's just wierd that the rest of the world uses HID's with no problem. I don't run them, but that's becuase I can't afford it!

08-19-2002, 06:42 PM	#9
Javier Scooby Specialist Member#: 19346 Join Date: May 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Dirty all the time... Vehicle: 2003 MBP WRX Wiseco / Oliver EJ257	I used to think HID's were pointless (didn't have a problem with them as they never seemed too bright to me) until I drove a friend's Acura TL.... the difference is amazing. The whiter light produced makes everything much clearer. I actually noticed that the beam doesn't project as far, but because it is brighter and clearer, nearly the entire illuminated area is more visible and thus more usable.

08-19-2002, 06:54 PM	#10
daytontp Scooby Newbie Member#: 9797 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South Carolina Vehicle: 2005 Honda S2000 New Formula Red	First off, I am not for or against HIDs. I have never driven a car with them, and do not have a problem with the glare they produce. Well, the problem is not with the fact that any car has HIDs that cause a glare problem. It is the design of the headlight unit itself. The BMW HID design does not produce glare, where as the Audi HID design produce a large amount of glare. But, if a few car manufacturers have units that produce glare and the rest do not. Then they focus on the bad units to base there study on. Kinda like the 1 trouble maker in class that ruins it for everyone else in the class. This is a government study done for the NHTSA & DOT. That is why the study document is so freakin big.

08-19-2002, 07:04 PM	#11
daytontp Scooby Newbie Member#: 9797 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South Carolina Vehicle: 2005 Honda S2000 New Formula Red	More (Shorter) Articles Worth Looking At: 1. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...complaints.htm 2. http://www.4x4wire.com/access/notice...headlights.htm 3. http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/16/pf/autos/safety/ 4. http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/buildi...20Day%20May%20'02/Glare&HID%20Headlamps.pdf 5. http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/010927-3.htm 6. http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...56,241&sid=241 7. http://dms3000.dot.gov/docimages/p62/133584.pdf

08-19-2002, 07:39 PM	#12
HongKongBeef Scooby Specialist Member#: 1574 Join Date: Jun 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: #finklses @ EFnet Vehicle: 2008 OBXT Black	i love my HID's and will attack anyone that tried to take them from me.

08-19-2002, 09:05 PM	#15
gypsymoth Scooby Specialist Member#: 6072 Join Date: Apr 2001 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Torrance or Redlands, CA Vehicle: 01 Silver 2.5 RS 04 Silver WRX STi	After reading the "Recommendation" section of that PDF (Page 39 of "Where Does the Glare Come From? / Page 57 of the PDF), I don't see any mentioning of banning HID lamps. There are many good recommendation on how to make HID more glare-friendly in future vehicles. After reading the article, I think there are many good reasons why HID should become standard among all vehicles . . . making HID mods pointless. Maybe people would start modding their car with old yellow bulbs. 8-) Chieh

08-19-2002, 09:36 PM	#16
mtb_dude Scooby Specialist Member#: 12619 Join Date: Nov 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: LI, NY Vehicle: 02 WRX Wagon #47 SM w/RA gears	Yeah, bascially the recommendations were to change the US spec to be more like European and Japanese standards which use more of the light for sight and less for glare. They want to make all hids auto leveling and the beam angle dependant on height. I didn't know trucks and SUVs in other countries had a height dependant declination angle. Good ideas ...

08-20-2002, 12:48 AM	#17
daytontp Scooby Newbie Member#: 9797 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South Carolina Vehicle: 2005 Honda S2000 New Formula Red	Well, if you ask me the US DOT will ban them. Because all they can do is screw something good up. Like a steel ball with a rubber hammer. Just think of all the good cars overseas we od not get in the US because of the DOT. For Example: 1. Porsche will not sell the 911 GT3 in the US because the DOT wants them to change the bumper height less than 2 CM. And Porsche is not going to do it. 2. There are several Turbo Deisel engine not offered here because the grade of Deisel fuel we use in the US is subpar to that of what they use in Europe. 3. Panoramic side view mirrors are illegal in the US. These are the mirror you find on many German cars. They are flat on 3/4 of the mirror and the outside 1/4 curves away from the car. 4. I am not going to argue this one, but the emissions in the US are striker than anywhere else. Case in point '02 & '03 WRX, 3 Cats, 1 Resonator, 1 Muffler and some other black box in the back. 5. Clutch/Starter Lockout switch. What happens if you need to move the car with the starter to get it out of danger.

08-20-2002, 12:58 AM	#18
Wheels Scooby Specialist Member#: 5410 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Wappingers Falls, NY Vehicle: 08 Tribeca Ltd	Q) why d european countries not have a problem with HID's? A) Most european countries spend countless millions on lighting streets at night. In England for example a law was passed years ago that by 2010 all Motorways where to be lit. Which reduces glear 100X. And another reason is only the USA has such a large number of SUV's to the number of cars.

08-20-2002, 09:57 AM	#20
daytontp Scooby Newbie Member#: 9797 Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South Carolina Vehicle: 2005 Honda S2000 New Formula Red	Were they stock or did he buy them and install them later. I have them on my WRX, and I bought them afterwards.

08-20-2002, 10:54 AM	#22
STR8OUT Scooby Specialist Member#: 15533 Join Date: Feb 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: W.C., PA - taco heaven Vehicle: 2006 CPO E55 AMG KX250, 25' Fountain, GP12	They better not ban them I will take that glare for the cool look of HID. I was planning on ordering some Muchullas (<--Spell check) for my STI lights.

08-20-2002, 11:48 AM	#23
gtguy Scooby Guru Member#: 2184 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Highland Park, Ill., USA Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT wagon Platinum Silver Metallic	It isn't about selfishness, it's about safety. If some blinded senior runs into your new car because your HIDs caused them to lose control, what price your fancy lights now? I was contemplating HIDs, but upon realizing how well my Prodrive headlights work, I'll spend my money on something else, thank you. European cars, for the most part, and certainly if they have HIDs, have projector lenses. There are good and bad ways to design projectors, as evinced by (good) Mercedes and BMW, and (bad) Audi and Acura, the latter who persists in putting HIDs in reflector housings. European roads are indeed lit much better, which is why their headlamps tend to have such a sharp cutoff. They just don't have to light as much of the road. That high, wide DOT pattern is some of the reason HIDs in the States are such an issue. Even were U.S.-spec cars to get the leveling switches that every European car has, think about how many people over here would forget to lower their lights. Heck, think about how many people here don't even have their headlights properly adjusted? While banning them would seem draconian, it really is a safety issue, even if it doesn't affect any of us. Remember, we aren't always going to be young (or relatively so, in my case). It's never a bad thing to have compassion. Much of the difference that people see with HID is indeed attributable to the whiter light that is available. But as with any spectrum color change, that whiter light comes with downsides, like decreased effectiveness and increased glare in the rain, and the like. We haven't heard the last of this one, and banning HIDs seems as silly as mandating digital television, but... Kevin

08-20-2002, 12:53 PM	#25
caged1 Scooby Newbie Member#: 13932 Join Date: Jan 2002 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Coudersport PA, around Retards Vehicle: 1998 GM6-5MT+09XT Brilliant Red	My question is the longterm effects of these lights on vision. Having to look at these things in on coming traffic countless times I have to wonder if this is affecting my vision in some way. IMO is no different than staring at the arc in electric welding and everyone knows that is no good for the eyes.