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Old 08-20-2002, 06:27 PM   #1
desiwrx02
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Default Everything you want to know about cheap boost control

Heres the deal. We (I say we because I wasnt the only one testing) went out with a video camera to test the main cheap boost control methods. With my buddy in the backseat we videotaped Boost, EGTs and RPMs under the differnt set-ups.

We were curious as to how the stock restrictor (1/8th), the 3/16th connector, and the pulled hose mod would affect boost, spool time and EGT. Also I was very interested in whether the Grainger Solenoid would induce spiking because of the increased length the air had to flow. So here are the results:

Conversion of .bar to psi
.8 bar = 11.6 psi
.9 bar = 13.05 psi
1 bar = 14.5 psi
1.1bar= 15.95 psi
1.2bar= 17.5 psi

EGT Reference: My EGT is tapped at the downpipe. With entirely stock boost control i read 550-575 accelerating 5th gear on the freeway. (PT)

My Performance Mods: UP/DP, Lightened Crank Pulley

All Runs conducted at WOT

Factory Boost Control: 1/8th connector
Gear:....Spool:...........Boost Holds at.........Spike to
1..............-.................. 0.8-0.9..................1.1
2............3100...............0.9............... ........1.1
3............3000..............1.0................ ........1.1
4............2900..............1.0................ ........1.1
5..............-...................1.0........................1.1
All EGTs Under 525

Factory Boost Control: 3/16th Connector
Gear:....Spool:...........Boost Holds at.........Spike to
1............2800...............0.9............... .........1.2
2............2750...............0.9............... .........1.2
3............2500..............1.0................ .........1.1
4............2600...............1.0............... .........1.2
5............2500...............1.0............... .........1.2
All EGTs Under 525


Pulled Hose Mod"
Gear:....Spool:...........Boost Holds at.........Spike to
1..............-....................1.0..........................1 .05
2............3250...............1.1............... ...........1.2
3............3000...............1.1............... ...........1.2
4..............-....................1.1..........................1 .2
5..............-.....................-...............................-
All EGTs Under Under 525


Grainger Solenoid:
All runs were duplicated through the Grainger Solenoid and results were just great. NO SPIKING whatsoever through the grainger solenoid. The results were identical to the other runs give and take human error.

So after all these tests I decided that there is one amazing set-up for boost control in the WRX. The Grainger Solenoid. Not my idea by any means, but let me tell you it works! Running stock Restrictor size (1/8) FBC we boost plenty for everyday driving and even merging a freeway at great speed. And we see no unsafe spikes (1.2 with 3/16th) So for normal driving you can drive with this port of the Solenoid engaged. With my Boostvalve MBC i found that switching to the MBC port i could consitently boost 1.15 bar and not see any spiking. Total cost for this setup was about 75 dollars, but if you do a homemade MBC it should cost you around 45-50 dollars. A cheap alternative to an EBC or other two stage controllers. But with this one you can run TOTALLY STOCK FBC.

We tried our best to be accurate and put this out there only to try and help people decide on boost control method

Ajay
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Old 08-20-2002, 06:37 PM   #2
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whats the grainger solenoid?
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Old 08-20-2002, 06:42 PM   #3
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did you reset the ECU in between each mod? (not that it would have learned anything in 10 minutes)
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Old 08-20-2002, 08:10 PM   #4
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The ECU was not reset.
The Grainger solenoid is a Solenoid from grainger. part no. 6jj52. It is a 3 port solenoid that allows you to remotely select from any two inputs to one output. I mounted my switch on my dash.
Ajay
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Old 08-20-2002, 10:56 PM   #5
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how did u wire in the boost lines and stuff. a desc. would be help full, might do this. maybe a diagram or somthing. thanks great stuff THOMAS
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Old 08-21-2002, 12:04 AM   #6
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Great info, I think every one really appreciates this objective analysis. Unfortunately the high EGT problems that people seem to be having are when using MBCs under partial throttle. As you probably know the turbo is boosting more air into the motor while the ECU is only feeding enough fuel for the ait coming through the MAP. It would be very useful to hear what happens with the grainger solenoid and the 3/16" connector under partial throttle conditions. Also diagrams for the 3/16th and grainger would be very helpful to the average i-clubber.
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Old 08-21-2002, 11:26 AM   #7
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Yes. You see though, that is the beauty of this set-up. EGTs are never high because the only time the MBC is engaged is when you are driving hard, upwards of X% throttle where the computer runs open loop and it basically reads X manifold pressure and adds X part fuel. That way the car should not run lean. Problems occur when the boost controller is allowing up to 7 pounds boost, when the ECU is still in closed loop and is no compensating for the great increase in manifold pressure. When you ARE driving part throttle, to work, etc., you just have the 1/8 connector FBC port engage, and are driving in completely regular boost control. As per the 3/16 mod, it did not result is high EGTs whatsoever even at part throttle. I cant say this through the grainger solenoid but for the last 3000 miles I have driven with 3/16th port engaged. Seeing that the extra line of the grainger solenoid had no effect on on boost and spool RPM, i would think that the set-up could be regarded nearly identical to the way i was running the last 3000 miles (thus no EGT worries). I will try to dig up some diagrams that people posted of the solenoid set-up. Maybe somebody else could post them as well. Until then search and youll find plenty of info on how to do it.
Ajay
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Old 08-21-2002, 02:34 PM   #8
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Doesn't Dawes make a Solenoid that will work for this too? I'm gonna check this out. Nice write-up.


-Fess
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Old 08-21-2002, 03:14 PM   #9
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Dawes does also make a similar solenoid. But i believe it is more expensive, 35 vs.20 and Gifty74, a board member who has this set-up, and i believe he was the first to try the grainger solenoid says the temp rating was the highest of the the ones he researched.
Ajay
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Old 08-21-2002, 04:13 PM   #10
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This is really good data so far! I've been running the 3/16" restrictor on and off for a while but have always though about those times when I was in 4th gear at part throttle around 3k rpm if the EGTs are creeping up. If you can show some plots of the car at part throttle for a long time that would be awesome. I've always thought the ECU could handle this mild "MBC", but I wouldn't bet my engine on it.
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Old 08-21-2002, 10:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by desiwrx02
Dawes does also make a similar solenoid. But i believe it is more expensive, 35 vs.20 and Gifty74, a board member who has this set-up, and i believe he was the first to try the grainger solenoid says the temp rating was the highest of the the ones he researched.
Ajay
first i'd like to thank you Ajay for taking the time to log all of this data. i'm pumped to see the grainger solenoid is performing so well. i didn't think it would be performing this well for this long. although, i kind of expected to see some of those results because i didn't see any differences in spiking when i put mine on, as opposed to just an mbc. keep being creative and finding new data and trends, it's stuff like this that makes the forum unique, and keeps us more budget-minded modifiers interested and involved in at least some discussion.

the grainger solenoid is still working perfect for me. i put it on a long time ago, probably at least 4000 miles ago, and still going strong. i researched a long time to find a simple solenoid (2 inputs, 1 output) that i could use to switch between two different boost inputs, or signals. my main concern was the heat, because i mounted mine right above the turbo (as shown in this link, down the page where the mounting bracket pics are). this one is rated at 180 degrees F, but that's at its highest pressure rating of 100 psi. so, i thought with the relatively low pressures we're seeing in the turbo system (15-17 psi max or so) this would hold up. it's been on many long trips, sat in hours of traffic, right above the turbo, with no air movement to cool it. i can still just flip my rocker switch and switch over to my mbc, which incidentally isn't very often. i feel this is a safe setup, and even has advantages over the turboxs dual-stage bc. the main one being that on the turboxs one, you are switching between two mbc's basically. on this setup, you can always revert back to the stock system (and mine is stock w/ no 3/16 mods or anything). i find security knowing subaru is handling the boost control 95% of the time .

Last edited by gifty74; 08-21-2002 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 08-22-2002, 01:06 PM   #12
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Exactly.
Subaru Cotrols bost 95% (or even 98% for me), of the time. That is the beauty of this set-up.
Ajay
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Old 08-23-2002, 10:05 AM   #13
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Finally got those links up:
If you dont know what the grainger solenoid is please take some time to read these threads. Their are many diagrams and pictures and you will understand how it works after reading these:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...inger+Solenoid

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...dual+and+boost

Thanks
Ajay
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Old 08-23-2002, 08:50 PM   #14
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Good job Desi. Good data. Its about time someone stepped up to the plate. My boost gauge should be arriving shortly and I'll post some data as well...

I do have a comment on the ECU fueling though. After analyzing the DD logs of the stocke ECU runs to death, I am convinved that the stock ECU is capable of fueling in both open and closed loop. In closed loop however, the car looks to optimize A/F at stoich optimum by reading the rear O2 sensor and adjusting fuel accordingly. It also takes MAP/MAf signals so higher boost will mean higher fueling in both modes. In open loop however, it just goes off the MAP sensor to adjust fuel and fortunately the map is very rich. This also helps to keep EGT's lower.

High PTFB/EGT (IMO) is likely due more to running hotter IAT's due to low vehicle velocities (i.e., lower intercooler efficiency) couped with higher boost (i.e., hotter turbo). This will raise IAT's and consequently, EGT's. However, when running higher boost, I would tend to be more concerned about detonation but the stock ECU is pretty good at pulling timing when it sees those conditions.

JC
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Old 08-23-2002, 08:57 PM   #15
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hey JC havent seen ya for a while? Where have ya been?
Ajay
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Old 08-23-2002, 09:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by desiwrx02
hey JC havent seen ya for a while? Where have ya been?
Ajay
On vacation, getting engaged - you know, the usual. I'm at home so I have to use this crappy 56K modem. That truly makes me weed out which threads I should reply to.

Also, could you do some part-throttle runs, say holding 30% TPS in each gear uphill both in stock form and with the pulled hose mod and report the boost and EGT's?? This should be fairly simple to do as you can let the car stabilize before you have to take your readings. If they get too high get into the throttle - We don't want you damaging your car on our account.

Thanks des,
JC
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Old 08-24-2002, 10:41 AM   #17
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I would also like to know if the 3/16 mod has PTFB/high EGT issues. I am very impressed with the spool that you reported for this mod. Has anyone tested the part throttle EGT's for this?

Rich
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Old 08-24-2002, 04:10 PM   #18
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I ran the 3/16th mod for quite some time. Around 3000 miles. I recorded no dangerously high EGTs during this time. If you are doing the Grainger Solenoid, i would say go with the 1/8 restrictor so there is nothing to worry about. But if you just were interested in the data for the 3/16th mod i would not worry about high EGTs, from my experiences.
Ajay
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:01 AM   #19
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Default Finally!!!

OK, I finally got my boost gauge installed last night and did some tests....

Let me start off by saying that I am one of the lucky ones who can full boost in all gears - no problem. I did notice however that it did vary considerably and seemed to depend on how fast my throttle input was. It seemed the faster I accelerated, the lower my 1st gear boost was, up to a point then it was vice versa. This leads me to believe that it the gauges reaction time rather than the car itself and I may take out the damper in the gauge line to see how that works... anyway, here goes....

Notes:
1. all data in MPa
2. My car is bone stock other than 3/16 mod
3. Run 91 octane fuel
4. I didn't record RPM's because you read need two people to do it safely...

3/16 Mod:
Gear................Spike................Holds
1st...................0.085...............0.08
2nd..................0.09.................0.085
3rd...................0.095...............0.085
4th...................0.10.................0.09
5th...................0.10.................0.09

So, as you can see I had no severe spiking whatsoever. Perhaps if my gauge wasn't dampened then I would have seen more spiking??? (EDIT: My boost tapered off to about 0.085 as I went past 5000 RPM in 5th gear).

Then, I tried a slightly different version of the pulled hose mod - I removed the hose from the tee branch in the line going to the wastegate because I didn't want to change out the 3/16 restrictor (its a bitch!!!)...

Pulled hose mod:
Gear................Spike................Holds
1st...................0.10.................0.09
2nd..................0.105...............0.10
3rd...................0.11.................0.11
4th...................0.12.................0.12
5th...................0.13.................0.13

So again, very little spiking but the boost was crazy high!! I quickly plugged my hose back in. I may try other iterations of this mod soon...

As for Full boost at part throtte - I could not induce it when running the 3/16 mod. However, when I tried the pulled hose mod, I was hitting 0.01 MPa in 2nd through 5th at about 30-40% TPS. Also in 5th, I hit 0.13 at about 75% TPS and then fuel cut (around 4000 rpm)! (BTW, it takes 4 on/off cycles to clear a fuel cut CEL). Therefore, there definitely is potential to run "high" (I wouldn't call it "full") boost at part throttle...

I will try various iterations of the pulled hose mod and report back. Also, if I can my buddy to help me get RPM's as well then I will edit my post and add them soon.

JC

Last edited by thejean; 08-29-2002 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:18 AM   #20
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Default Re: Finally!!!

Good data. 3/16 results are similar to mine, but pulling the hose at the T gave you more boost than I've ever seen with the hose pulled at the connector. But then again, this will vary with weather conditions and factory tolerances. 1.3 bar is way too high. My usual highest (cold weather, 5th gear) is 1.1 bar. At least now you know what boost you are getting

VV

Quote:
Originally posted by thejean
OK, I finally got my boost gauge installed last night and did some tests....

Let me start off by saying that I am one of the lucky ones who can full boost in all gears - no problem. I did notice however that it did vary considerably and seemed to depend on how fast my throttle input was. It seemed the faster I accelerated, the lower my 1st gear boost was, up to a point then it was vice versa. This leads me to believe that it the gauges reaction time rather than the car itself and I may take out the damper in the gauge line to see how that works... anyway, here goes....

Notes:
1. all data in MPa
2. My car is bone stock other than 3/16 mod
3. Run 91 octane fuel
4. I didn't record RPM's because you read need two people to do it safely...

3/16 Mod:
Gear................Spike................Holds
1st...................0.085...............0.08
2nd..................0.09.................0.085
3rd...................0.095...............0.085
4th...................0.10.................0.09
5th...................0.10.................0.09

So, as you can see I had no severe spiking whatsoever. Perhaps if my gauge wasn't dampened then I would have seen more spiking???

Then, I tried a slightly different version of the pulled hose mod - I removed the hose from the tee branch in the line going to the wastegate because I didn't want to change out the 3/16 restrictor (its a bitch!!!)...

Pulled hose mod:
Gear................Spike................Holds
1st...................0.10.................0.09
2nd..................0.105...............0.10
3rd...................0.11.................0.11
4th...................0.12.................0.12
5th...................0.13.................0.13

So again, very little spiking but the boost was crazy high!! I quickly plugged my hose back in. I may try other iterations of this mod soon...

As for Full boost at part throtte - I could not induce it when running the 3/16 mod. However, when I tried the pulled hose mod, I was hitting 0.01 MPa in 2nd through 5th at about 30-40% TPS. Also in 5th, I hit 0.13 at about 75% TPS and the fuel cut! (BTW, it takes 4 on/off cycles to clear a fuel cut CEL). Therefore, there definitely is potential to run "high" (I wouldn't call it "full") boost at part throttle...

I will try various iterations of the pulled hose mod and report back. Also, if I can my buddy to help me get RPM's as well then I will edit my post and add them soon.

JC
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:25 AM   #21
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yeah, I know, it was high. but, just like AZScoobie said in another thread, boost/fuel cut above 18 psi which is exactly where I got it.

I think I'll try the 3/16 x 1/8 x 3/16 tee with a clamped bleed next and see how that pans out. Have to get the parts now...

I all honesty though, because I can get nearly full boost in all gears anyway, I don't see how its going to help me much. Any thoughts?? At this point, I think the best I'm going to be able to do is get the slightly better spool up with the 3/16 mod.

Can you still not get 0.09 - 0.10 MPa in 1st gear??? I wonder why you guys can't and some of us can?
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:38 AM   #22
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With the factory restrictor I can get around .85 to .9 in first. I can hit a little over 1.0 with the hose pulled.

VV

Quote:
Originally posted by thejean
yeah, I know, it was high. but, just like AZScoobie said in another thread, boost/fuel cut above 18 psi which is exactly where I got it.

I think I'll try the 3/16 x 1/8 x 3/16 tee with a clamped bleed next and see how that pans out. Have to get the parts now...

I all honesty though, because I can get nearly full boost in all gears anyway, I don't see how its going to help me much. Any thoughts?? At this point, I think the best I'm going to be able to do is get the slightly better spool up with the 3/16 mod.

Can you still not get 0.09 - 0.10 MPa in 1st gear??? I wonder why you guys can't and some of us can?
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by VetteVert
With the factory restrictor I can get around .85 to .9 in first. I can hit a little over 1.0 with the hose pulled.

VV

And you say it makes considerable difference eh? I'm referencing your "first gear suck, blows, chomps, etc.." post somewhere. Maybe I will try it then and see how it works out for me. I forget so can you tell me again where you max out at in 5th with your setup?
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Old 08-29-2002, 09:11 AM   #24
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Well, I only peak to .85 or so, and it drops off fast...almost seems like it is around 5k rpms. With the hose pulled it holds 1.0 to > 6k and .85 to redline. Considerable difference...

I max at 1.1 bar in 5th if it's cold, around 1.05 if it's hot.

VV

Quote:
Originally posted by thejean


And you say it makes considerable difference eh? I'm referencing your "first gear suck, blows, chomps, etc.." post somewhere. Maybe I will try it then and see how it works out for me. I forget so can you tell me again where you max out at in 5th with your setup?
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Old 08-29-2002, 10:30 AM   #25
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Great post - and it confirms what I suspected has happened to me with the 3/16 mod (only mod - otherwise stock). I am sure that a couple of time, the boost spike of .11-.12 mpa has caused my ecu to detect overboost, and pull the timing. I don't get a CEL, but the car then runs sluggishly for quite some time.

Question: With the Grainger solenoid mod, one 'channel' uses FBC, while the other 'channel' then uses an MBC? Is that correct? So if I want to do this (and I do), I would need the grainger solenoid and switchgear, along with an MBC? Thanks.
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