Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday October 1, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-13-2012, 09:35 PM   #1
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Lightbulb How green are electric cars? Depends on where you plug in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/au...u-plug-in.html

Quote:


...

The California part of the story is upbeat: a hypothetical Los Angeles Leaf would be accountable for the release of an admirably low level of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, about the same as a gasoline car getting 79 miles per gallon. But the Denver car would cause as large a load of greenhouse gases to enter the atmosphere as some versions of the gasoline-powered Mazda 3, a compact sedan rated at 33 m.p.g. in combined city and highway driving by the Environmental Protection Agency. In simple terms, the effect of electric vehicles on the amount of greenhouse gases released into the environment can span a wide range, varying with the source of the electricity that charges them. California’s clean power makes the Leaf a hero; the regional mix of coal-dependent utilities serving Denver diminish the car’s benefits as a global-warming fighter.
My take on it can either be digested in a long version on Google+ or summarized below:

- Fleet average is 24 mpg these days
- Per the above-linked NYT article 82% of Americans live in regions of the country clean enough where equivalent mpg is 41 or higher
- Only a tiny, tiny fraction of cars currently gets 41 mpg combined or higher (8 per fueleconomy.gov, 9 if the bar is lowered to >=40)
- Therefore, switching to electric cars would be a net benefit in terms of CO2 reduction, proving the "America has dirty power, give up now" naysayers wrong.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 09:37 PM   #2
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Note that I'm not claiming that BEVs are a panacea, and that our overall lifestyle will be sustainable on a global scale if we all just hopped into Leafs (or Priuses, or Teslas). Read this to be disabused of those notions: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2138076

What I do think is notable is that in certain regions of the country conditions look ripe for EVs to do well: clean power, reasonable climates (ie, easy on batteries), and well-educated, affluent consumers.
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 09:38 PM   #3
Killerkanadian
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 315183
Join Date: Mar 2012
Default

Either way, you're paying for less, or no gasoline. So if you driving it to save money, then atleast you have that.
Killerkanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 09:49 PM   #4
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerkanadian View Post
Either way, you're paying for less, or no gasoline. So if you driving it to save money, then atleast you have that.
That's only true assuming you would have bought an equivalent-price new car instead of an electric one. Therefore, paradoxically, the only people driving EVs are those who could have afforded gas for a non-EV anyway.

(The truly broke should be walking, taking the bus, or at least driving an old beater.)
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 07:39 AM   #5
79letour
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 302570
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: dear old dixie
Vehicle:
2013 XV
DGM!

Default

Who Killed the Electric Car?
Yall should watch that movie^

One thing I'd like to add- If your electricity is coming from a company that buys its electricity from a nuke plant, the waste left from that power, and therefore your car, will have a half-life longer than recorded human history.
79letour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 10:37 AM   #6
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

I have indeed watched Who Killed the Electric Car? and its follow-up, Revenge of the Electric Car.

On the topic of the original article, I must add that there are cleaner power options yet. In Seattle, for example, one can pay an extra monthly fee ($12/mo) that will guarantee that wind power offsets one's own consumption entirely. Do that, or use your own wind generator of solar array, and the effective mpg climbs skyward.

I may end up doing something akin to the latter in the future, not because it'll save the world--too late for that!--but because it might pay off very nicely in a future of resource scarcity.

Last edited by shikataganai; 05-18-2012 at 11:15 AM.
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 11:15 PM   #7
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

More on this topic:

1) The UCS has released its actual report, State of Charge (that I've mirrored on Google Docs for ease of downloading).

2) The UCS has also released a nice graphic depicting what's paraphrased above by the NYTimes:



3) Note that I currently live in Long Island, which is a "Good" region (39 MPGghg from the paper's source data) in sharp contrast to the rest of NY state, which is between 74 MPGghg (NYC metro) and 86 MPGghg (upstate). This means that a Leaf driver here on Long Island creates a touch more CO2 per mile than my wife as she drives her 46 combined/overall MPG Prius…

As I point out in my original post, however, 39 MPGghg is much better than the current 24 MPG fleet average, though, and perhaps Long Island's natural gas-heavy power will get cleaner in the future.

4) The whole Pacific NW and then some is lumped together, with a 73 MPGghg rating. Opt for the $12/month Green Up program in Seattle, however, and the MPGghg becomes essentially infinite.

I think that's pretty damn cool.

shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 09:50 AM   #8
mhoward1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 9481
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: FFR Challenge #43
Vehicle:
2011 Carrera 4s
2009 BMW M5

Default

Good to know I live in a best state
mhoward1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 10:32 AM   #9
Masterauto
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 198376
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Delaware
Vehicle:
X5D Subaru BRZ
Nissan GT-R

Default

problem is they don't go much farther and take as long time to charge as they did 100 years ago. People vote with their $ Dollar now as they did back then.
Masterauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 10:42 AM   #10
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: in a minefield of caddishness.
Vehicle:
1984 "Skeletor from
"He-Man"

Default

They're remarkably safer, more practical, more comfortable, and far more recyclable than they used to be... not to mention that far more of the population has access to electricity needed to charge it than did people of 1910.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 11:00 AM   #11
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterauto View Post
problem is they don't go much farther and take as long time to charge as they did 100 years ago. People vote with their $ Dollar now as they did back then.
Upon looking into this, you are partially right:


Detroit Electrics with the nickel-iron battery were advertised as having a reliable 80 mile range, so not that different from a modern Leaf. Note that the vehicle's top speed was 20 mph, though, so the comparison isn't really that apt.

I also don't see any mention of high speed charging for the 1910-vintage EVs. Modern EVs have many options, of course: the 6.6 kW AC charging offered by the 2013 Leaf and Focus Electric, the 10 kW charging offered by Tesla and the RAV4 EV, or even 60 kW charging via public/municipal 480V DC Level 3 fast chargers...
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 11:51 AM   #12
Not-EWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 158043
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: SLC
Vehicle:
2013 Wrx Hatch
SWP

Default

That graph above totally contradict the graph motor trend had for Utah. Motor Trend said you'd produse more carbon driving one in Utah than a normal car.
Not-EWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 01:42 PM   #13
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not-EWRX
That graph above totally contradict the graph motor trend had for Utah. Motor Trend said you'd produse more carbon driving one in Utah than a normal car.
This graphic is from the horse's mouth, the UCS itself. Perhaps Motor Trend's graphic designers screwed up when making their own version.

Also note the the "worst" areas are 31-40 MPGghg. It is still rare to have a normal car that gets more than 31 MPG in combined cycle real world driving.
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 01:55 PM   #14
moltenbykes
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 260372
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Redmond, WA
Vehicle:
2012 OBP STI 5-Door

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
More on this topic:
4) The whole Pacific NW and then some is lumped together, with a 73 MPGghg rating. Opt for the $12/month Green Up program in Seattle, however, and the MPGghg becomes essentially infinite.

I think that's pretty damn cool.

I have to wonder if this "green-up" program takes into account the resources required to construct the power plants all the way down to surveying/footprint of the plants/etc.

Not that I'm being a pain in the ass, just curious.

Also, I'm surprised that the Northwest with our massive hydroelectric resources is not rated higher for total MPG than upstate New York. We consistently have enough left over power that we are selling to california/nevada our excesses. We also tend to have some of the cheapest power on average in the entire US. But then again, it takes millions of tons of concrete to build a dam, so that could be why this is calculated like that.

I wonder, out of curiousity which takes more resources to build, a hydroelectric dam, or a nuclear plant?
moltenbykes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2012, 03:36 PM   #15
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moltenbykes View Post
I have to wonder if this "green-up" program takes into account the resources required to construct the power plants all the way down to surveying/footprint of the plants/etc.

Not that I'm being a pain in the ass, just curious.

Also, I'm surprised that the Northwest with our massive hydroelectric resources is not rated higher for total MPG than upstate New York. We consistently have enough left over power that we are selling to california/nevada our excesses. We also tend to have some of the cheapest power on average in the entire US. But then again, it takes millions of tons of concrete to build a dam, so that could be why this is calculated like that.

I wonder, out of curiousity which takes more resources to build, a hydroelectric dam, or a nuclear plant?
Good questions.

I bet the "only" 73 MPGghg rating for the Pac NW is because it lumps so many states together. Looking at that UCS map, one can see that the Pac NW region as defined by the EPA Clean Energy eGRID 2010 data that the UCS draws upon actually is composed of the following states:

- Washington
- Oregon
- Idaho
- a sliver of NorCal
- Nevada ex Las Vegas
- Utah
- a piece of the Arizona desert
- Wyoming and Montana west of the Rockies

Why does this matter? Well, a glance at NPR's Visualizing the Electric Grid tool ("sources of power" tab) shows that Nevada, Utah, Montana, and Wyoming all drag the region down in the MPGghg metric as they're very coal- and oil-heavy. For instance, Wyoming is 95% coal, Utah is 94% coal, and Nevada is 47% natural gas plus 45% coal.

The only reason the Pac NW region-writ-large does as well as it does is because Washington (71% hydro), Oregon (62% hydro), and especially Idaho (79% hydro!) prop it up. Define the Pac NW as just those three latter states and I bet it'd be over 100 MPGghg...

With regard to Green Up, you're asking whether it's a lifecycle carbon-neutral offset or whether just incremental power use is offset. I believe it's the latter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle City Light
[Green Up] funds are used to acquire Renewable Energy Credits (RECs) equal to the amount of customer demand.
shikataganai is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How often are our cars stolen in the NW? Scotty Dosent Know North West Impreza Club Forum -- NWIC 49 10-03-2010 02:36 PM
Electric car to debut July 12. 0-60 in 4 seconds. George71 Off-Topic 75 03-15-2007 07:04 PM
The ZAP-X Crossover Electric Car (based on Lotus APX Concept) ~ 155mph, 644HP, & AWD NYCshopper Non-Subaru News & Rumors 10 01-31-2007 01:45 PM
So, are there lots of Dougs where you work? gongzero Off-Topic 28 01-28-2004 11:33 PM
please help!! how do you plug in..... AmirWRX Bay Area Impreza Club Forum -- BAIC 0 12-31-2002 10:29 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.