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Old 10-17-2012, 03:35 PM   #3901
besthaticouldo
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Originally Posted by Hey Jesus View Post
Same **** smaller piston......
you're piecing together the kit? or using that kit with stock size pistons?

will it still be a 2.6L or are you looking at like a 2.55L?

from what i know about strokers, and forgive me because im not a pro motor builder, but i've had 3 strokers in my cars over the years, the diameter has to increase as well...it's designed like that.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:44 PM   #3902
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Originally Posted by besthaticouldo View Post
are you planning on doing more later?

like bigger turbo, heads and cams?

it's kinda pointless to do a stroker with stock heads, cams, and turbo, especially decreasing the compression ratio. i'd be almost willing to bet money you won't make the same power i did on the same dyno and 91oct.

just saying.

excited to see torque numbers though.
Stock Sti Compression ratio is 8.2:1
Hes actually raising it a bit

the WRX's make "more power" on the dyno because of the gear that they run them in. just FYI. Gearing has a large affect on load and the STi has a much greater load in 4th than your car in 3rd hence lower numbers.

Phil isn't going external gate so on a turbo the same size with a lower flowing TMIC instead of a Fmic i cant see why he would make more than you did anyway...... however phils tune has always been real conservative (c'mon we all know how he drives) With a slightly more aggressive tune with the stroker im sure he will be happy. We shall see....
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:48 PM   #3903
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Originally Posted by besthaticouldo View Post
you're piecing together the kit? or using that kit with stock size pistons?

will it still be a 2.6L or are you looking at like a 2.55L?

from what i know about strokers, and forgive me because im not a pro motor builder, but i've had 3 strokers in my cars over the years, the diameter has to increase as well...it's designed like that.
.5 mm is not much
instead of a 2.607
its a 2.591

up from 2.457

the point is a built motor with billet crank with a bit more displacement for the fun of it
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:52 PM   #3904
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.5 mm is not much
instead of a 2.607
its a 2.591
by what math? because i think you're slightly off.

.5mm is not much, its roughly .0196". it is a decent amount, and every little bit counts. but why not build for the future, go to 100mm and sleeve the block? prevent future possible failures.

you said yourself, we know how phil drives.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:55 PM   #3905
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by what math? because i think you're slightly off.

.5mm is not much, its roughly .0196". it is a decent amount, and every little bit counts. but why not build for the future, go to 100mm and sleeve the block? prevent future possible failures.

you said yourself, we know how phil drives.
Because $1000+ for sleeves and the down time associated with them AND the issues with sinking and sealing that ive seen its not worth it on pump gas stock (or even mild turbo)

The stock sleeves can do 400 whp for a long time if the motor is taken care of and i KNOW phil takes care of his motor LOL
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:11 PM   #3906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey Jesus

Because $1000+ for sleeves and the down time associated with them AND the issues with sinking and sealing that ive seen its not worth it on pump gas stock (or even mild turbo)

The stock sleeves can do 400 whp for a long time if the motor is taken care of and i KNOW phil takes care of his motor LOL
truth!!!
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:23 PM   #3907
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Originally Posted by Hey Jesus View Post
the point is a built motor with billet crank with a bit more displacement for the fun of it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey Jesus View Post
Because $1000+ for sleeves and the down time associated with them AND the issues with sinking and sealing that ive seen its not worth it on pump gas stock (or even mild turbo)

The stock sleeves can do 400 whp for a long time if the motor is taken care of and i KNOW phil takes care of his motor LOL
and i can understand that a mild build for fun.

however, 400whp for a long time is nothing, there are WRX guys running 400whp on a stock block. if you wanted 400whp and no headaches throw a 1.5XT-R and E85 on it and you'd be there in a flash. but you're building a motor with the intention of never going above 400whp. thats only like 450 crank, that seems reckless actually.

phil takes great care of his stuff, there is NO doubting that. however, building for the bare minimum when youre building a motor for a guy that drives his car hard is negligent IMO. if yoiu want 400whp, you build a motor that can handle 650+.

also ask darryl how stock internals do even on stgII tune. sometimes luck plays into it. i wouldn't trust the sleeves as far as i could throw them. especially if i have the opprotunity when it's gonna be apart anyway to throw sleeves in there for an extra 1k and NEVER EVER have to worry about my motor breaking. sorry, but IMO with a built motor you always always always overbuild. scraping by doesn't work.

you still didn't answer my question about the math and what pistons are you gonna use, the rods are different, as far as i know there is also clearancing involved with a stroker kit pistons, because the rods are longer.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:30 PM   #3908
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his motor will be a 2.5815L. so yea, call it 2.6L i guess. with 100mm pistons it'd be a 2.6075.

its .026L difference

you can check my math if you want

http://www.ajdesigner.com/fl_engine_...splacement.php
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:44 PM   #3909
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Originally Posted by besthaticouldo View Post
and i can understand that a mild build for fun.

however, 400whp for a long time is nothing, there are WRX guys running 400whp on a stock block. if you wanted 400whp and no headaches throw a 1.5XT-R and E85 on it and you'd be there in a flash. but you're building a motor with the intention of never going above 400whp. thats only like 450 crank, that seems reckless actually.

phil takes great care of his stuff, there is NO doubting that. however, building for the bare minimum when youre building a motor for a guy that drives his car hard is negligent IMO. if yoiu want 400whp, you build a motor that can handle 650+.

also ask darryl how stock internals do even on stgII tune. sometimes luck plays into it. i wouldn't trust the sleeves as far as i could throw them. especially if i have the opprotunity when it's gonna be apart anyway to throw sleeves in there for an extra 1k and NEVER EVER have to worry about my motor breaking. sorry, but IMO with a built motor you always always always overbuild. scraping by doesn't work.

you still didn't answer my question about the math and what pistons are you gonna use, the rods are different, as far as i know there is also clearancing involved with a stroker kit pistons, because the rods are longer.
400 whp on a stock block on E85 will break eventually. Not only that you cant get E85 is the south coast area. driving 15-50 minutes to fullerton every other day or so is a huge pain in the ass.

The dom 1.5Xtr is not my favorite turbo so i wouldn't really use that on anything.

Ive had stock motors @400whp for 150K miles. He was running meth. and the cylinder walls actually went out of round and the motor was still fine. I also have 530 whp cars on C16 on stock motors that are still happy after 5 years (stock motor) I suppose you'd call andy's build reckless? along with every other non sleeved upgraded rod/piston setup out there? Since they far outweigh the ones that are sleeved by like 100:1. you dont just "throw" sleeves in ive seem more sleeves fail than be successful so if i can avoid them i will. Sleeves aren't really needed until over 500whp

NO turbo worth driving on the street will make 400-450 on pump gas anyway. Anything that can prevent detonation like meth/E85 will go a long way to keeping a motor happy. However if you don't have any of that building for a safe goal and being happy with the response / torque from a stroker/ stockish turbo is the smart thing to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by STOCK EJ25
Input Parameters Are the Following:
  • Number of Cylinders are = 4 to 1
  • Piston Diameter = 99.500 Millimeters
  • Piston Oversize = 0.000 Millimeters
  • Engine Stroke = 79.000 Millimeters
Computation Results:

Computed Engine Displacement (CID) is 150

Computed Engine Displacement (Litres) is 2.5
Computed Engine Displacement (CC) is 2457.1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phils Ej26
Input Parameters Are the Following:
  • Number of Cylinders are = 4 to 1
  • Piston Diameter = 99.500 Millimeters
  • Piston Oversize = 0.000 Millimeters
  • Engine Stroke = 83.000 Millimeters
Computation Results:

Computed Engine Displacement (CID) is 158

Computed Engine Displacement (Litres) is 2.6
Computed Engine Displacement (CC) is 2581.5
we are talking 10ths of a millimeter here (kind of like you and phil in a cak measuring competition)
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:47 PM   #3910
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Originally Posted by besthaticouldo View Post
you still didn't answer my question about the math and what pistons are you gonna use, the rods are different, as far as i know there is also clearancing involved with a stroker kit pistons, because the rods are longer.
Typically the rods are the same, crank is longer and they move the wrist pin up a bit
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:55 PM   #3911
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Cak contest! I win!!
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:00 PM   #3912
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Cak contest! I win!!
well your stroke will be longer.....
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:11 PM   #3913
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Originally Posted by Hey Jesus
well your stroke will be longer.....
Exactly i got this end. He can grab the other!!!
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:12 PM   #3914
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Originally Posted by Hey Jesus View Post
400 whp on a stock block on E85 will break eventually. Not only that you cant get E85 is the south coast area. driving 15-50 minutes to fullerton every other day or so is a huge pain in the ass.

The dom 1.5Xtr is not my favorite turbo so i wouldn't really use that on anything.

Ive had stock motors @400whp for 150K miles. He was running meth. and the cylinder walls actually went out of round and the motor was still fine. I also have 530 whp cars on C16 on stock motors that are still happy after 5 years (stock motor) I suppose you'd call andy's build reckless? along with every other non sleeved upgraded rod/piston setup out there? Since they far outweigh the ones that are sleeved by like 100:1. you dont just "throw" sleeves in ive seem more sleeves fail than be successful so if i can avoid them i will. Sleeves aren't really needed until over 500whp

NO turbo worth driving on the street will make 400-450 on pump gas anyway. Anything that can prevent detonation like meth/E85 will go a long way to keeping a motor happy. However if you don't have any of that building for a safe goal and being happy with the response / torque from a stroker/ stockish turbo is the smart thing to do.

we are talking 10ths of a millimeter here (kind of like you and phil in a cak measuring competition)
your math is off. sorry. being someone that does what i do for a living, i'm a stickler for numbers, and we're not talking tenths. we're talking thousands. being .020" off in a build is asking for a disaster.

Stock motor is 2.4571L
BC Stroker is 2.6075L
Phil's is 2.5815L

inches and MM and CC and liters make numbers different than what they may seem. but i've double and triple checked now.

andy's build is a different scenario. he didn't do two things you guys are doing. he didn't build a stroker. he also didn't take a stroker kit, and bastardize it. (excuse my bluntness, but thats what you're doing). he didn't cut corners on his build. he also wasn't building his motor for 400whp, he was building for basically a stock plus. just seems like you're cutting corners instead of doing the build how it was intended, theres a reason Brian Crower's name is so well known in the engine world, and his parts usually have a **** load of engineering behind them.

wasn't saying to use a dom, but on a stock STi you could throw a turbo on, with meth, supporting mods and 91 and be at 400whp all day long. and as you said you've had tons over 400whp for 150k+. which begs the question why is phil doing a rebuild...? he's probably close to 330whp right now, bigger turbo, etc and he's right there. if 400whp is the goal then he didn't need a new motor unless something was wrong with his motor.

also i disagree about your assertion that no turbo worth driving on pump on the street would make more than 400whp-450whp. there are a few out there with meth that are still driveable.

we in south county are very close to having e85 in a few more stations.

what's the reasoning behind no headwork? or cams? i mean you're not gonna really take advantage of the extra umph that the stroker will give you without headwork? not even a valve job and new high revving hardware?



Quote:
Typically the rods are the same, crank is longer and they move the wrist pin up a bit
that would mean the rods are different as their attachment to the piston is different, thus changing angles and needing clearancing of stock style pistons.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:43 PM   #3915
Hey Jesus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STOCK EJ25
Input Parameters Are the Following:
  • Number of Cylinders are = 4 to 1
  • Piston Diameter = 99.500 Millimeters
  • Piston Oversize = 0.000 Millimeters
  • Engine Stroke = 79.000 Millimeters

Computation Results:

Computed Engine Displacement (CID) is 150

Computed Engine Displacement (Litres) is 2.5
Computed Engine Displacement (CC) is 2457.1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phils Ej26
Input Parameters Are the Following:
  • Number of Cylinders are = 4 to 1
  • Piston Diameter = 99.500 Millimeters
  • Piston Oversize = 0.000 Millimeters
  • Engine Stroke = 83.000 Millimeters

Computation Results:

Computed Engine Displacement (CID) is 158

Computed Engine Displacement (Litres) is 2.6
Computed Engine Displacement (CC) is 2581.5
my math is exactly what you had man....


Quote:
Originally Posted by besthaticouldo View Post
your math is off. sorry. being someone that does what i do for a living, i'm a stickler for numbers, and we're not talking tenths. we're talking thousands. being .020" off in a build is asking for a disaster.

Stock motor is 2.4571L
BC Stroker is 2.6075L
Phil's is 2.5815L

inches and MM and CC and liters make numbers different than what they may seem. but i've double and triple checked now.

andy's build is a different scenario. he didn't do two things you guys are doing. he didn't build a stroker. he also didn't take a stroker kit, and bastardize it. (excuse my bluntness, but thats what you're doing). he didn't cut corners on his build. he also wasn't building his motor for 400whp, he was building for basically a stock plus. just seems like you're cutting corners instead of doing the build how it was intended, theres a reason Brian Crower's name is so well known in the engine world, and his parts usually have a **** load of engineering behind them.

wasn't saying to use a dom, but on a stock STi you could throw a turbo on, with meth, supporting mods and 91 and be at 400whp all day long. and as you said you've had tons over 400whp for 150k+. which begs the question why is phil doing a rebuild...? he's probably close to 330whp right now, bigger turbo, etc and he's right there. if 400whp is the goal then he didn't need a new motor unless something was wrong with his motor.

also i disagree about your assertion that no turbo worth driving on pump on the street would make more than 400whp-450whp. there are a few out there with meth that are still driveable.

we in south county are very close to having e85 in a few more stations.

what's the reasoning behind no headwork? or cams? i mean you're not gonna really take advantage of the extra umph that the stroker will give you without headwork? not even a valve job and new high revving hardware?





that would mean the rods are different as their attachment to the piston is different, thus changing angles and needing clearancing of stock style pistons.
We aren't bastardizing anything we are using JE (BC SPEC) 99.5MM pistons in a brand new set of case 1/2's so there is no need to go to 100MM. The only reason BC offers 100mm (and you can get 99.5mm from them too) is because people rebuild motors and bore them to have fresh walls....

400whp is the safe goal the motor can take much more than that.

BC cranks are 83mm vs 79mm. the ROD IS THE SAME length as stock and the pistons wrist pins are moved up to accommodate for the stroke.

Quote:
STROKER KIT - Subaru EJ257-STi - 83mm Stroke Billet Crank, BC625+ Rods (5.141"), Custom Pistons

Part #: BC6608
CONNECTING RODS - BC625+ w/ARP Custom Age 625+ Fasteners (Subaru EJ205/EJ257 - 5.141")
See SAME LENGTH

Phil wants a built motor. Its that simple. There is nothing wrong with his motor now he just wants to have a built one instead. In fact his shortblock will be for sale after this is done since we are using all new cases and components.

Again you keep quoting power levels with meth or e85 or whatever. PHIL wants a PUMP GAS car that is built strong enough for a smaller upgraded turbo and PUMP GAS. Unless he tells me other wise that is what i build him. If he chooses to go with meth or some other fuel/octane booster we can revisit it then.

There is no corner cutting, its a built motor with NEW (99.5mm) cases. hence the smaller bore. there are no tolerances out of spec there are no measurement issues. Brand new bearings (properly sized/clearanced) Brand new rings (gaps set properly) Brand new JE pistons, brand new rods, crank, oil and water pumps, gaskets etc etc. Block honed for proper piston/wall....yadda yadda
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:23 PM   #3916
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jeebus....thats why im kinda scrapping everything i have together....Get R Done! i cant wait
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:28 PM   #3917
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does anyone happen to have stock STI rear top hats? if so.. I need them!
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:51 PM   #3918
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2.6L for 400whp, I say go for it.


Rock a green though!

Phil I thought you were getting robis engine?

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Old 10-17-2012, 07:40 PM   #3919
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Hey Garlin where you at fcc campus today? I thought I saw you but didnt stop to see if it was b.c. i was walking with someone to class
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:47 PM   #3920
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Hey Garlin where you at fcc campus today? I thought I saw you but didnt stop to see if it was b.c. i was walking with someone to class
I'm here right now.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:53 PM   #3921
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I'm here right now.
Oh whats good I knew that was you watching the boys in speedo play water polo haha jk I didnt know smart people came to this school. What you doing here?
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:28 PM   #3922
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Oh whats good I knew that was you watching the boys in speedo play water polo haha jk I didnt know smart people came to this school. What you doing here?
:unamussed: I have class tonight.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:11 PM   #3923
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Phil drives slow. So........
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:14 PM   #3924
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Where's the meet tonight?
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:04 PM   #3925
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Where's the meet tonight?
There's a meet tonight? You mean people show up even for the non oggis night?
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