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Old 05-17-2013, 02:08 AM   #401
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Why assume a 7% increase just because new model year? I doubt that will happen... they would shoot themselves in the foot.
Thats only a 3.5% increase.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:02 AM   #402
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I really hope they troll everyone and release something that looks just like an 80's fox body 5.0 and completely blows all of this 'no more retro' talk out of the water.
I'd be first in line. As long as it weighed the same as the 80's fox body, which was in the 3,100-3,300lb range. That was the first car I was ever "in to" I think, the 87-93 Mustang and the third generation Camaro (82-92). I wish cars looked like that still. They try to pull off the retro now, but it just looks like a modern version of a retro car. I want the thing rattling and smelling of fuel at stop lights.

Give me this with an LS3:

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Old 05-17-2013, 10:26 AM   #403
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Thats only a 3.5% increase.
Those numbers after the comma get you every time :P
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:26 AM   #404
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Why bother?? Stay average? Tell me you're not trolling... It's a loss leader strategy.. Gets more people into dealers, gets more attention directed towards the brand... Actually a somewhat common practice in the auto industry, and they are definitely at the point where they could benefit from it....10 years ago, not a chance... But now that they've established themselves, I could definitely see it happening...

The GT right now starts at 30,900... The 2015 will probably start at 32... They could definitely cost engineer the next genesis coupe to come in at a similar price. Of course this is all speculation, no one even knows if Hyundai will put a v8 in the coupe, but they could, and should, lets all hope they do....
Tell me you aren't trolling. If having a halo car mattered Mitsubishi should be doing a lot better than they are by having the EVO in their dealerships. Business has been very good for Hyundai without a halo car and there are already plenty of reasons to stroll into a Hyundai dealership and a V8 coupe in reality is only going to bring in teenagers and 20 year olds that can't afford it anyway. A Korean company going head to head against the Camaro and Mustang is simply foolish business and I really wonder how many of you even have a modest concept of how large businesses operate. Really why would any company interested in making profits take a car that is already disappointing in sales and shoehorn in an expensive engine making it far pricier than its competitors making it an even harder sell that nobody is going to buy? To bring kids into dealerships to drool over it? What a great idea.

As I said before Hyundai needs to focus simply on making the existing Genesis Coupe a better car as it's not exactly selling like hot cakes. If they truly want a halo car then make a Korean version of a GTR, Supra or NSX but we are talking about the Genesis coupe here which is mediocre as it is in it's present state and needs a lot of handling upgrades in addition to engine to make it truly a halo car.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:32 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by SWP n Gold View Post
I'd be first in line. As long as it weighed the same as the 80's fox body, which was in the 3,100-3,300lb range. That was the first car I was ever "in to" I think, the 87-93 Mustang and the third generation Camaro (82-92). I wish cars looked like that still. They try to pull off the retro now, but it just looks like a modern version of a retro car. I want the thing rattling and smelling of fuel at stop lights.

Give me this with an LS3:

That was the last good looking Camaro...

the 1993 model of that car was a beast.. 6 speed, LS motor. It was very fast in all its 80's plastic glory
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:08 AM   #406
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LS motor? You mean LT? I thought the LS engines didn't make their way into the Camaros until the fourth gens.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:31 AM   #407
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yeah, good catch, I know it was one of them...They are all the same thing anyway...

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Old 05-17-2013, 12:05 PM   #408
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yeah, good catch, I know it was one of them...They are all the same thing anyway...

do you hear that?

that's the sound of thousands of people gnashing their teeth in unison.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:25 PM   #409
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LT - Home of the Optispark. One of GM's greatest design.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:37 PM   #410
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As long as GM keeps building cars at or over 4000lb, and with the dimensions of a Sherman tank, I really don't care how much horsepower they have, I don't want it.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:53 PM   #411
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Tell me you aren't trolling. If having a halo car mattered Mitsubishi should be doing a lot better than they are by having the EVO in their dealerships. Business has been very good for Hyundai without a halo car and there are already plenty of reasons to stroll into a Hyundai dealership and a V8 coupe in reality is only going to bring in teenagers and 20 year olds that can't afford it anyway. A Korean company going head to head against the Camaro and Mustang is simply foolish business and I really wonder how many of you even have a modest concept of how large businesses operate. Really why would any company interested in making profits take a car that is already disappointing in sales and shoehorn in an expensive engine making it far pricier than its competitors making it an even harder sell that nobody is going to buy? To bring kids into dealerships to drool over it? What a great idea.

As I said before Hyundai needs to focus simply on making the existing Genesis Coupe a better car as it's not exactly selling like hot cakes. If they truly want a halo car then make a Korean version of a GTR, Supra or NSX but we are talking about the Genesis coupe here which is mediocre as it is in it's present state and needs a lot of handling upgrades in addition to engine to make it truly a halo car.
You act like there's no possible way, but 10 years ago no one would've thought Hyundai would've even made a RWD coupe... Much less become the powerhouse they are today. They already have a V8 in the sedan, it's really not that much of a stretch to toss it in the coupe...And that IS a great way to take an average car and make it better... EVEN if it started at 34-35, people would still cross shop it with other V8 coupes... Also, I think it's much more likely to improve on an existing model than to create a totally new "halo car" to take on the GTR.

You seem to think a loss leader strategy is never used, It's the same strategy GM used with the Corvette... Honda used with the S2000...

Maybe that's what Mitsubishi had in mind with the EVO, but they didn't offer anything else that was competitive, and quite honestly still don't...
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:40 PM   #412
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You act like there's no possible way, but 10 years ago no one would've thought Hyundai would've even made a RWD coupe... Much less become the powerhouse they are today. They already have a V8 in the sedan, it's really not that much of a stretch to toss it in the coupe...And that IS a great way to take an average car and make it better... EVEN if it started at 34-35, people would still cross shop it with other V8 coupes... Also, I think it's much more likely to improve on an existing model than to create a totally new "halo car" to take on the GTR.

You seem to think a loss leader strategy is never used, It's the same strategy GM used with the Corvette... Honda used with the S2000...

Maybe that's what Mitsubishi had in mind with the EVO, but they didn't offer anything else that was competitive, and quite honestly still don't...
I see you simply don't get it. This isn't the 90's anymore and companies are no longer putting a lot of money and resources into loss leaders. You actually think GM loses money on Corvettes?

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/03/...eneral-motors/

Quote:
But that’s not to say that the Corvette’s sales are underwhelming — quite the contrary: for a car that’s about to be replaced by an all-new model — the 2014 Corvette Stingray – the C6 sold well in 2012. But with that kind of low sales volume, one might think that The General might be taking a loss on the Corvette to drum up the image of the Chevrolet brand. This is not the case, as the Corvette turns a healthy profit by itself, according to President of GM North America Mark Reuss.

“This [The Corvette] makes as much money as any of the top-profit models in our company,” Reuss said. “That is why we do it.”
You are trying to make some point that it's good business for Hyundai to build a car that won't sell and will likely lose money going head to head with cars that make money. It's not good business and that's why you don't see it much anymore. If they don't make money they generally aren't made.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:47 PM   #413
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Thanks heavy

the Vette is the only car GM has that is sold outright to the dealerships. Every single one rolling off the production line is already sold.

The vette has always made GM money..
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:56 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Hyundai is hungry, and targeting Mustang with the Genesis Coupe. And are likely to continue to. They aren't going to topple the Mustang, but competition is competition.

Hyundai also has the Genesis sedan, Equus, and likely the successor to the Borrego and Hyundai twin full-size SUV. Kia is also rumored to get RWD genesis-based sedans or possibly a Coupe.

Ford only really uses the Coyote engine in Mustang and F150, Expedition still uses the 5.4 SOHC, by comparison.

When you say Genesis V6 coupe comes close to Mustang GT on price... you are comparing fully loaded Genesis V6 Track to base Mustang GT. Add options comparable, and the Mustang V6 performance pack is similar priced, and an optioned out GT quickly approaches or surpasses $40K.

But I don't know that Ford would be doing quite right to keep direct fuel injection off the V6, and driving the EcoBoost 2.3 I4 very hard for more than 310hp at a higher price than the V6 equivalent.

I used Genesis as the example, because it is more likely, understandable, and likely less prone to technical problems to do similarly to the Genesis, with the Turbo I4 under 300hp, and under the ~350hp atmospheric V6 direct injected engine model's price tag...

IF Genesis continues to target Mustang, the Tau 5.0 equipped R-spec top-line would likely meet a well-optioned Mustang GT above $40K.
Top level, unoptioned V6 Genesis Coupe (3.8 Track): $33,000

Top level, unoptioned Mustang GT (Premium): $35,000

Granted, the GC has a few more things stock-for-stock (Brembos, mostly, a $1695 option on the Mustang which gives a couple other track-oriented goodies as well), but that's a pretty small gulf in price for a large gulf in performance. You could have a fully-loaded V6 Mustang for not much more than the base price of the 3.8 Genesis and the V6 Mustang is no slouch at all despite being down a little bit on horsepower compared to the Genesis.

Enter a V8 and we'd be talking about the upper $30k range base price and extremely stiff competition from the very capable Mustang...
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:20 PM   #415
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LT - Home of the Optispark. One of GM's greatest design.
I thought that was crossfire injection?
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:50 PM   #416
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Top level, unoptioned V6 Genesis Coupe (3.8 Track): $33,000

Top level, unoptioned Mustang GT (Premium): $35,000

Granted, the GC has a few more things stock-for-stock (Brembos, mostly, a $1695 option on the Mustang which gives a couple other track-oriented goodies as well), but that's a pretty small gulf in price for a large gulf in performance. You could have a fully-loaded V6 Mustang for not much more than the base price of the 3.8 Genesis and the V6 Mustang is no slouch at all despite being down a little bit on horsepower compared to the Genesis.

Enter a V8 and we'd be talking about the upper $30k range base price and extremely stiff competition from the very capable Mustang...
I think you are missing the point.

Genesis Coupe Track IS FULLY OPTIONED AS STANDARD. R-spec and Grand Touring are the lesser trim lines. You can't add much to a 3.8 Track coupe, because almost everything is already included, which is NOT the case on a 33K Mustang GT.

An R-Spec 3.8 V6 with 350hp is the base V6 model, at 28,750$. Grand Touring is just over $30K. Track IS fully optioned, pretty much ALL of it as standard equipment. $33,895 is a 6-speed V6 Track, the top end of Genesis Coupe's line.

A no-option Mustang GT V8 starts at 31,695$ (both cars with destination costs). The top end trim line of Mustang GT's listing, not counting Boss, or Shelby, is the GT-CS Premium, which STARTS at 37,790, without Brembos or Track package, that Genesis Track has. Adding the Track package, including brembos, deletes California Special (CS) package, but the track package is $2400+ added back on to the GT Premium, and comes to $38,250.

A V6 Mustang starts just over 22K, but again, with no options, but V6 is the bottom. Genesis bottom is the 2.0T, the V6 starts above the bottom, just as Mustang GT starts above the bottom spec of the V6 Mustang.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:02 PM   #417
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I think you are missing the point.

Genesis Coupe Track IS FULLY OPTIONED AS STANDARD. R-spec and Grand Touring are the lesser trim lines. You can't add much to a 3.8 Track coupe, because almost everything is already included, which is NOT the case on a 33K Mustang GT.

An R-Spec 3.8 V6 with 350hp is the base V6 model, at 28,750$. Grand Touring is just over $30K. Track IS fully optioned, pretty much ALL of it as standard equipment. $33,895 is a 6-speed V6 Track, the top end of Genesis Coupe's line.

A no-option Mustang GT V8 starts at 31,695$ (both cars with destination costs). The top end trim line of Mustang GT's listing, not counting Boss, or Shelby, is the GT-CS Premium, which STARTS at 37,790, without Brembos or Track package, that Genesis Track has. Adding the Track package, including brembos, deletes California Special (CS) package, but the track package is $2400+ added back on to the GT Premium, and comes to $38,250.

A V6 Mustang starts just over 22K, but again, with no options, but V6 is the bottom. Genesis bottom is the 2.0T, the V6 starts above the bottom, just as Mustang GT starts above the bottom spec of the V6 Mustang.
You do realize that nobody pays remotely close to MSRP on Mustangs with all the typical rebats Ford has. My 2012 had $6k in rebates taken off the MSRP price before I even started talking price with the dealer.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:17 PM   #418
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Nobody pays MSRP on Fords, pretty much everyone is eligible for a crazy amount of rebates. My dad paid something like 15k for a loaded new Ranger last year.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:32 PM   #419
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Genesis isn't selling tremendously well, I imagine there are incentives, as well.

But comparing oranges to oranges, rather than apples... MSRP is a mutual baseline for comparison.

I am not trying to say Genesis is a better car.

I am saying that Hyundai has targeted Mustang with Genesis coupe. They said and showed as much when they introduced it, and it is a closer comparison than the significantly heavier Camaro and Challenger, despite the american traditional nameplates being grouped together.

Hyundai didn't put the naturally aspirated V6 below a very-high-strung 2.0T tune, and for a reason.

I imagine that reason would similarly apply to 2015 Mustang's rumor of a 2.3T compared to V6.

If 2.3T is more powerful than the V6, the V6 likely would not be equipped with direct injection, and the 2.3 EcoBoost engine would likely be highly strung to put out more horsepower, and likely cost more.

It will suffer just like the SVO suffered in 1984-86. obviously higher cost and performance than the base I4 or V6,
but the real damage was even higher cost than the base model GT V8, and the V8 offered similar performance with less complication.

If the lawsuit about the inherent problems in the SHO's engine make people wary about a 2.3 liter super-high-output I4... I could see people still preferring either the more affordable but still respectable 300+ V6 drivetrain, or going for the traditional performance option, with the V8 5.0 Coyote drivetrain, and skipping the 2.3 EcoBoost, if they think it might be iffy, and if it is also nearly as expensive as a GT V8 anyway.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:18 PM   #420
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Nobody pays MSRP on Fords, pretty much everyone is eligible for a crazy amount of rebates. My dad paid something like 15k for a loaded new Ranger last year.


That "new" Ranger must've been sitting on the lot for while, since they haven't been sold in NA since the 2011 MY.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:48 PM   #421
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The vette has always made GM money..
I was talking about the original vette... GM did this originally to get customers and now it's a success... Hence my statement about Hyundai

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(12) Originally intended only as an image-builder and "loss leader," the Corvette has been a pleasant sales success for Chevrolet and produces a substantial annual profit. In 1969, sales should reach 30,000.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...orvette-page-2

http://www.cbc.ca/undertheinfluence/...osing-money-1/

Last edited by sential; 05-17-2013 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:36 PM   #422
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That "new" Ranger must've been sitting on the lot for while, since they haven't been sold in NA since the 2011 MY.
Yup, it's a 2011, replacing his '01 that was totally rusted out.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:51 PM   #423
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I was talking about the original vette... GM did this originally to get customers and now it's a success... Hence my statement about Hyundai


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...orvette-page-2

http://www.cbc.ca/undertheinfluence/...osing-money-1/
The problem is, Hyundai has heavy competition in a Halo car segment and the major hurdle of still being "lol Hyundai". Chevrolet had already had been a major player for ~50 years by the time they made the Corvette.

Hyundai has made halo car concepts, but they are still several years away from playing in a market with the Corvette, GT-R, et al.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:42 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Vostok 7 View Post
The problem is, Hyundai has heavy competition in a Halo car segment and the major hurdle of still being "lol Hyundai". Chevrolet had already had been a major player for ~50 years by the time they made the Corvette.

Hyundai has made halo car concepts, but they are still several years away from playing in a market with the Corvette, GT-R, et al.

The people who "lol" are becoming fewer and fewer, Hyundai and Kia are playing a mean game of catch up, they may not be hitting hard in the premium segment, but they are killing it in the 25K and below. They caught Honda and Nissan slippin' and they are moving in on their turf. Each season, they creep closer and closer to the Civic quality, and they've already passed it as far as looks and value. The upper end models will get there too.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:59 PM   #425
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The people who "lol" are becoming fewer and fewer, Hyundai and Kia are playing a mean game of catch up, they may not be hitting hard in the premium segment, but they are killing it in the 25K and below. They caught Honda and Nissan slippin' and they are moving in on their turf. Each season, they creep closer and closer to the Civic quality, and they've already passed it as far as looks and value. The upper end models will get there too.
That's granted, and Honda and Toyota were once regarded the same as Hyundai. But it took both Honda and Toyota ~20 years to market a Halo car (NSX and Supra respectively), and there is a huge difference between Japanese manufacturing and Korean manufacturing I'm not saying Hyundai can't get there, I'm just saying they have a few years yet to be taken seriously in a Halo market.
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