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Old 09-15-2014, 09:17 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Ford Mustang GT350 To Pack 5.2-Liter V-8 With Flat-Plane Crank?




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The sixth-generation Ford Mustang recently entered production, but engineers are still testing a high-performance variant of the new muscle car that weíre expecting to be launched on the market sometime next year. Not much is known about the new Mustang variant but itís believed the car will wear the GT350 badge and be a track-focused model like the previous Boss 302.

We do know the car is being developed by Ford Motor Companyís [NYSE:F] own SVT performance division, and that it will feature a V-8 engine. Now, Motor Trend has some dug up some details on the engine, which the magazine claims will be a unique 5.2-liter V-8 fitted with a flat-plane crankshaft.

Flat-plane V-8s are common in motorsport but theyíre rarely used in production cars (Ferrari is an exception) because most flat-plane engine designs tend to produce low torque down in the rev range. They also tend to be noisier and a bit rough compared to rival cross-plane designs. Barring the noise issue, Ferrari has shown that the shortcomings of the flat-plane design can be overcomeóany doubters should take a spin in the 458 Italiaóand it looks like Fordís engineers will do as well in the very near future.

According to Motor Trendís sources, the V-8 destined for the new Mustang GT350 will feature a vibration damper on its crankshaft to aid smoothness. This, however, has reportedly led to issues with some of the engineís other features, which in turn have required beefing up. With all the modifications onboard, the engine is said to be now capable of spinning reliably at upwards of 7,500 rpm. While itís too early to talk output, Motor Trend says we could be looking at close to 600 horsepower and 430 pound-feet of torque!

As mentioned, the Mustang GT350 will be the track-focused version of the new Mustang, meaning it will target Chevroletís Camaro Z/28. Other upgrades for the car that we gleaned from prototypes include very different exterior treatment, with a host of aerodynamically effective spoilers and lips, a diffuser, numerous vents, and a much wider stance thanks to flared fenders. A completely revised, track-worthy suspension setup and some serious weight-saving mods are also likely.
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...orAuthority%29
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:16 AM   #2
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:52 AM   #3
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Yes, I'm very patiently waiting for real word on this one.

I don't think they'll pump it to 600hp, this is a BOSS 302 replacement, not a GT500. I would expect somewhere in the 500hp range with a bump in torque from what they quote (can be done, even with a flat plane crank, if it's done right). Then we will see a supercharged GT500 at some point in a few years with 600+hp aiming at the Hellcat.
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:26 AM   #4
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Scrappy... take the "s" out of https and it will embed...


--kC
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Old 09-15-2014, 01:02 PM   #5
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Thanks bud... I suck at the interwebz
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Old 09-15-2014, 01:04 PM   #6
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The higher RPM this motor hits the better. I'm craving a car that sounds and drives a lot like my bike.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:25 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Vostok 7 View Post
Yes, I'm very patiently waiting for real word on this one.

I don't think they'll pump it to 600hp, this is a BOSS 302 replacement, not a GT500. I would expect somewhere in the 500hp range with a bump in torque from what they quote (can be done, even with a flat plane crank, if it's done right). Then we will see a supercharged GT500 at some point in a few years with 600+hp aiming at the Hellcat.
Current Boss 302 can supposedly rev out to 8500rpm and will make north of 500hp if you flash in the same engine tune they use for the factory race cars. The race cars do get a dry sump oil system, but I'm told the engine is otherwise the same. I wouldn't be surprised if the GT350 is close to 600hp. Especially since I've heard rumors that the GT500 gets a twin turbo 302.


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Originally Posted by Motor Authority
According to Motor Trend’s sources, the V-8 destined for the new Mustang GT350 will feature a vibration damper on its crankshaft to aid smoothness. This, however, has reportedly led to issues with some of the engine’s other features, which in turn have required beefing up. With all the modifications onboard, the engine is said to be now capable of spinning reliably at upwards of 7,500 rpm. While it’s too early to talk output, Motor Trend says we could be looking at close to 600 horsepower and 430 pound-feet of torque!
As for this little bit, pretty much EVERY crank on EVERY vehicle from EVERY manufacturer has a vibration damper. This isn't new technology.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:40 PM   #8
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Yeah, not sure why they even mentioned that. Every car I have ever owned from every manuacturer has had a damper. This is 80 year old technology he is speaking of.

Maybe they mean some kind of active damping?
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:45 PM   #9
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Yeah, not sure why they even mentioned that. Every car I have ever owned from every manuacturer has had a damper. This is 80 year old technology he is speaking of.

Maybe they mean some kind of active damping?
If you read deeper it's supposed to be on the back of the engine, maybe something to do with the flywheel? Nothing new on the front as far as I've read.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:14 PM   #10
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What will the guys think when their Mustang sounds more like an S2000 than a typical American v8?
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:25 PM   #11
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Judging from the reactions on the M6G boards, they'll love it. But so far we've only heard it at high rpm, or puttering around. There's a few seconds of midrange in there and it has some of that low rpm Ferrari roughness. Not bad, but definitely different.

If I owned a car that sounded like that at high rpm I'd never be able to stay under the speed limit.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:30 PM   #12
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what are the advantages of going flat plane then?
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by stealth06wrx View Post
what are the advantages of going flat plane then?
this is a decent write up on the SVT Forums

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...rank-explained

pros:
no counter weights means lower rotational mass means faster revs
better scavenging with proper headers
sounds at high revs that make your willie tingle

cons:
difficult to balance
less torque due to them usually being smaller and set up for high revs
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Old 09-15-2014, 08:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth06wrx View Post
what are the advantages of going flat plane then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keshav View Post
this is a decent write up on the SVT Forums

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...rank-explained

pros:
no counter weights means lower rotational mass means faster revs
better scavenging with proper headers
sounds at high revs that make your willie tingle

cons:
difficult to balance
less torque due to them usually being smaller and set up for high revs
That writeup is a little simplistic and a bit inaccurate.

The primary benefit is the exhaust tuning which should let a good set of headers (particularly tri-Ys) do their thing more effectively.

The rotational mass is pretty unimportant in a street car. Race engines have lightweight cranks and flywheels, but they're really hard to start from a stop with a manual trans. Street cars which don't have heavy cranks often have very heavy flywheels to help low speed starting, just look at the flywheel on an I6 BMW.

As to balance, a cross-plane V8 with counterweights has inherently better secondary balance than a flat-plane. A flat plane V8 is essentially two I4s set at right angles with all the vibrational harshness that entails. It's essentially impossible to balance well without balance shafts. A cross-plane V8 is two V4s end to end, the secondary vibrations are half as strong and twice as frequent. The crankshaft balance differences have little to do with RPM capability, except for the fact that street cars generally aren't zero balanced (internally balanced). An internally balanced cross-plane V8 has just as much high RPM capability as a flat-plane V8, see NASCAR cup engines spinning to 10,000 RPM.

A cross-plane V8 should actually have an advantage in torque due to the more efficient exhaust tuning, it's just that the cross-plane engines most are familiar with are smaller displacement and tuned for high-rpm power. They don't "give up" torque in favor of high RPM power, they move the torque peak up the rev range in order to make more power. It doesn't really have anything to do with stroke either, the oversquare 458 Ferrari makes 89 ft-lb per liter, a very impressive specific torque figure. Also the old 302 Ford has a very short stroke, and plenty of examples make lots of low-end torque.

I'm stoked that Ford is finally making a proper performance V8 for the Mustang. The Coyote finally gave hot-rodders a reason to move on from the Windsor engines, hopefully they offer this new engine as a crate motor. I'm drooling at the prospect of swapping it into my old 2,800lb Fox-body.
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:19 PM   #15
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I'm drooling at the prospect of swapping it into my old 2,800lb Fox-body.
...or a nice Cobra replica
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:36 PM   #16
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The primary benefit is the exhaust tuning which should let a good set of headers (particularly tri-Ys) do their thing more effectively.
...or you could just run the exhaust side into the V like BMW does.

but let's not do anything too crazy here. Technology, ugh....
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:21 AM   #17
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I'm drooling at the prospect of swapping it into my old 2,800lb Fox-body.
You don't think it would be too wide?
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:36 AM   #18
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If you read deeper it's supposed to be on the back of the engine, maybe something to do with the flywheel? Nothing new on the front as far as I've read.
This makes more sense. The flat-plane leads to higher 2nd order vibration which may also lead to more twist in the crank. Part of that will require different tuning of the damper on the nose of the crank, but I expect it also requires a dual mass flywheel of sorts to absorb the loads so the teeth on all the gears in the trans don't see impact loads from cylinder firing. Dual mass flywheels which act as a damper are also not new technology, though they are a whole lot less common than the damper on the front.

Last edited by Scooby921; 09-16-2014 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:49 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by legav05 View Post
...or you could just run the exhaust side into the V like BMW does.

but let's not do anything too crazy here. Technology, ugh....
It's still pretty hard to package a proper tri-Y header with 20"+ primaries. They end up hitting the firewall. I guess it would be fine in a mid-engine car.

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Originally Posted by happasaiyan View Post
You don't think it would be too wide?
Nope, there's already a swap kit for Coyotes. I'm assuming this new engine is a Coyote variant. Remember, the 1994-2004 Mustangs are technically Fox chassis too, and the 4.6 and 5.4 modular engines fit (with supercharger even).
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:24 PM   #20
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Nope, there's already a swap kit for Coyotes. I'm assuming this new engine is a Coyote variant. Remember, the 1994-2004 Mustangs are technically Fox chassis too, and the 4.6 and 5.4 modular engines fit (with supercharger even).
Derp. I didn't know they have been 90 degrees this whole time.
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:34 PM   #21
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I think the Coyote is actually a little smaller than the previous 4.6L DOHC, although the front-entry intake may cause some hood clearance problems.
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Old 09-16-2014, 01:08 PM   #22
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Dual mass flywheels which act as a damper are also not new technology, though they are a whole lot less common than the damper on the front.
I know they've been around for a while since I've had to change a few out. I'm wondering if it's something else entirely though since I would have thought Ford would just say dual mass flywheel instead of additional damper or what not. We won't find out for a little while so it doesn't really matter.

I don't care how they setup the crank, or the fact that the parts catalog shows there's a 5.2 coming out. I'd just like it to be close to the Boss in pricing so I can try to convince my wife to let me buy it
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Old 09-16-2014, 01:33 PM   #23
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I just want to hear it.
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:25 PM   #24
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I know they've been around for a while since I've had to change a few out. I'm wondering if it's something else entirely though since I would have thought Ford would just say dual mass flywheel instead of additional damper or what not. We won't find out for a little while so it doesn't really matter.

I don't care how they setup the crank, or the fact that the parts catalog shows there's a 5.2 coming out. I'd just like it to be close to the Boss in pricing so I can try to convince my wife to let me buy it
I already have permission

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I just want to hear it.
And this is how it was achieved. I played the video of it running around the 'Ring and she said, "OK".



It helps that she heard an SLS while we were at the races on Belle Isle and loved the sound it made. After finding out how much those cost she said I had to find an affordable alternative. I consider a GT350 an affordable alternative
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:42 PM   #25
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Wait a sec, Bradfjord got hitched?
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