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Old 09-01-2012, 07:00 PM   #126
quentinberg007
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Yet, you're still here.
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:31 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
Yet, you're still here.
I'm so glad you noticed your mistake finally.

"It's unfortunate even with the "4WD" system they use on the Highlander hybrid and gasoline Hybrid/RAV4, I'd still buy a Subaru over this FWD hybrid CUV just because Subaru has AWD that actually works as intended and advertised."

If that doesn't say "If you want an AWD EV, this isn't it" obviously you might need to check into the local community college for English 101. Then again, you and the weeaboo make a good can of laughs. Did you run out of witty comments? I'm glad you finally came around to noticing it after someone had to explain it slowly to you.

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Old 09-01-2012, 08:01 PM   #128
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You might need to hit up some classes on technical writing to get your point across in a somewhat coherent and accurate manner. If you think that your first statement was coherent or accurate in any way, you truly are delusional. Here, I'll rewrite it for you.

"It's unfortunate even with the "4WD" system they use on the Highlander hybrid and FWD biased 4WD system used on the gasoline Highlander and RAV4, I'd still buy a Subaru over these higher efficiency CUVs just because Subaru has AWD that actually works as intended and advertised."


Last edited by quentinberg007; 09-01-2012 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:51 AM   #129
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I'm anxious to get my hands on one as early as feasible given the planned production run of only 2,600 over 3 years, especially since no one knows whether they'll come lumped near the beginning of this 3 year period or will be made and sold at a more constant rate. Perhaps my concerns will be unfounded and they'll languish unsold, waiting for me to pick one up at my leisure, but perhaps not, and I don't want to take that chance.
In the experience I had working on that particular development project the plan was to build ~100/month for 3 years. I expect the initial several months will be a slow ramp-up leading to the 2600 build volume. I changed jobs almost a year ago, so I've had no further involvement or knowledge of the program. Things could have changed significantly. Nonetheless I'm excited to see it head to production. It's a happy time for an engineer when parts we design finally make it to production
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Old 09-04-2012, 01:09 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Scooby921
In the experience I had working on that particular development project the plan was to build ~100/month for 3 years. I expect the initial several months will be a slow ramp-up leading to the 2600 build volume. I changed jobs almost a year ago, so I've had no further involvement or knowledge of the program. Things could have changed significantly. Nonetheless I'm excited to see it head to production. It's a happy time for an engineer when parts we design finally make it to production


Perhaps I'll be able to hold my horses after all. The whole dynamic of pent up orders, waiting lists, and lead time/whether dealers will actually stock any is another matter, though.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:49 PM   #131
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Yet more RAV4 EV details emerge: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...quivalent.html

- September 24 California on-sale date! Finally a real date instead of a handwavy "soon"!
- 76 MPGe with a 103 mile EPA 5-cycle (2008 test) official range. The Leaf is 106 MPGe and 73 miles, in comparison.
- Legal in California HOV lanes for solo drivers (as are the Leaf, iMiEV, and Volt, iirc)
- 1.9% loan rates for qualified buyers! presumably through Toyota Financial. I sure hope I'm a qualified buyer...

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Old 10-05-2012, 12:30 AM   #132
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It must be a new month, since I'm once again revising my vehicular plans… and the RAV4 EV is out of the running in all likelihood.

Both I and especially my wife had been very amped (cue rimshot) about the Toyota RAV4 EV: Good size and weight for carting a young family about town what with Thing #1 due at the end of February with associated giant rear-facing car seats and all, good range, good performance, good company with local presence everywhere… right?

Since California is the exclusive roll-out area I'd planned on shipping one north to Seattle, having been assured by a Toyota rep back in June that all those ubiquitous, national Toyota dealers would be able to service the thing.

Well, that turns out to be decidedly not the case, and I think that might just kill it in terms of its appeal to us.

How did I confirm this? A conscientious dealer gave me a copy of the mandatory pre-sales completion RAV4 EV Customer Disclosure Form. What does this disclosure form say, and why are my RAV4 EV plans now all phrased in the past tense? Here are the damning things, in my opinion, emphasis added by me:

Quote:
Your RAV4 EV includes three (3) years of roadside assistance, valid only in the Continental United States and Alaska. This coverage includes towing for failure of a warranted part.

• A service provider will tow the vehicle to the closest Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer within 100 miles of the vehicle’s location. If the vehicle is located in excess of 100 miles from an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer, then the vehicle will be towed to the nearest Toyota dealer and the customer will be responsible for additional towing charges to return the vehicle to an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer, if necessary.
Quote:
DUE TO HIGH VOLTAGE AND THE RISK OF INJURY THIS VEHICLE’S POWERTRAIN AND HIGH VOLTAGE SYSTEMS SHOULD BE SERVICED AT AN AUTHORIZED TOYOTA RAV4 EV DEALERSHIP.

powertrain and high voltage component maintenance or repairs should be performed by an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer.

• Because warranty service for your electric powertrain can only be performed by an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer in California, Toyota does not recommend home-basing the vehicle outside the State of California.
Shipping it back to California for service would be expensive, time consuming, and a huge pain in the ass. We want one, but that's not acceptable.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:33 AM   #133
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well that stinks. a friend just drove the fit ev and is in love with it.

maybe fall in love with the honda again?
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:38 AM   #134
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Even the Fit EV isn't available in Seattle. Portland, yes. Seattle, no. That would be much less of a potential headache should anything go south, since I could, er, go south with it.

No, seriously: I could drive a Fit EV from Seattle to Portland for service by charging probably twice along the way. No way would it be feasible for anyone with a job to do the same in a RAV4 EV from Seattle to, say, Sacramento.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:46 AM   #135
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I am remaining hopeful that the 2014 outlander PHEV comes in at a reasonable price. 50K for an EV is just crazy.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:36 AM   #136
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I am remaining hopeful that the 2014 outlander PHEV comes in at a reasonable price. 50K for an EV is just crazy.
The 50k price is pretty reasonable. I am hopeful the Outlander is similar and has a great drivetrain. They can make them cheap and suck, but I don't really get excited by that option.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:00 AM   #137
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Until EV get down to about 25k they are not going to amount to a spec on the wall. 50k while reasonable from a 'well it costs this much to produce' point of view, it is absurd from a what you get for your money point of view. And while most green weenies want to be seen as 'doing their part', the fact is that people's good intentions do not always line up with their wallets capabilities.

When EV make economic sense for an individual they will start selling in far more numbers...Until then, they will sell about as many as cars as their are people who want image over substance. So after the Hollywood types get done 'making a statement', the sales will probably dry up or at least severely slow down.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:23 PM   #138
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Which is why they are making them in limited numbers.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:42 PM   #139
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Yep Indocti. And theoretically these limited runs will provide learning opportunities that will make them cheaper and better.

Lessons:
Nissan learned that you need better thermal management or better batteries in Arizona
GM learned that you need to take into account people not following procedures and discharging battery after an accident. (Cross brace etc...)
A123 learned that you better get the dadgum hose clamps on correctly.
I am sure there are a lot of other lessons learned as well.

BTW Scrappy I don't disagree, but I would much prefer they make great vehicles than cheap ones. If they make cheap ones even though they may at first sell more they will damage the reputation of electrified vehicles when consumers complain that they are either wearing out too fast, not saving as much gas as they thought etc... If it costs 50k to make a great vehicle then just sell fewer till it costs less. EVs could be cheaper than PHEVs too. I thought before Mitsubishi was going to make a PHEV SUV. If it is just an EV they could sacrifice range for cost pretty easy. They can do like Tesla and sell a variety of ranges at different price points.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:21 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Until EV get down to about 25k they are not going to amount to a spec on the wall. 50k while reasonable from a 'well it costs this much to produce' point of view, it is absurd from a what you get for your money point of view. And while most green weenies want to be seen as 'doing their part', the fact is that people's good intentions do not always line up with their wallets capabilities.

When EV make economic sense for an individual they will start selling in far more numbers...Until then, they will sell about as many as cars as their are people who want image over substance. So after the Hollywood types get done 'making a statement', the sales will probably dry up or at least severely slow down.
EVs make economic sense WAY before they get down to $25k. Everyone has to do their math for their own personal situation, but if you save ~$200/month on gas (minus additional electrical costs, of course) it can make a pretty expensive car a good deal.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:29 PM   #141
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EVs make economic sense WAY before they get down to $25k. Everyone has to do their math for their own personal situation, but if you save ~$200/month on gas (minus additional electrical costs, of course) it can make a pretty expensive car a good deal.
Then you need to factor in that many people will need to own or rent a second vehicle for long drives. I would really rather see EV range increase instead of the cost coming down.

Plus if you are saving only ~$200/month, it takes you many years of fuel savings to cover the added cost of the EV.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:34 PM   #142
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Until EV get down to about 25k
Smart ForTwo ED: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012...art-fortwo-ed/

$18,250 after the Federal tax credit, and potentially less than that depending on state level incentives (e.g., no ~10% sales tax in WA, $2,500 credit in CA). Sure, it's still a small tin can, but it's undeniably a cheap electrically driven one...
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:36 PM   #143
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it takes you many years of fuel savings to cover the added cost of the EV.
Try ~6 yrs for the RAV4 EV. Post #50 by yours truly from this very thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...7&postcount=50
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:01 PM   #144
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Then you need to factor in that many people will need to own or rent a second vehicle for long drives.
That's why I said everyone should consider their individual situation. It doesn't make sense as a single car for someone who takes long trips by car, but many families have 2 vehicles.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:01 PM   #145
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The pay back all depends on on how much you pay for electricity. While 200 bucks a month on gas is reasonable estimate, it would stand to reason a chuck of that would be negated by the electricity it took to charge it, the price of an additional vehicle if you need to go somewhere outside of your range, AND lets not forget the battery performance will probably deteriorate over 5 years to some degree.

For a very narrow sliver of people these things can make close to economic sense, and that number shrinks even more if the government would stop subsidizing them.

Look if you want one buy one. But I think it is safe to say the VAST majority of the population, these things are just vehicular oddities. Just like a McLaren. It takes a very special person to want one.

THe facts are that there are not that many people standing in line for an expensive car with limited range. You can paint a picture where they make sense to somebody, but those kinds of people are few and far between.

We will see how the E-RAV 4 does. Who knows, I may be entirely wrong and off base. But I doubt it.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:28 AM   #146
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Which is why the total number of Evs produced annually for the us market are going to be in the 50-70k range.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:07 PM   #147
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considering its based on the rav4 thats been around forever, it actually looks pretty cool. almost better than a lot of newer hybrid version cars.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:46 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO

We will see how the E-RAV 4 does. Who knows, I may be entirely wrong and off base. But I doubt it.
I dont think youre entirely wrong. At the moment EV's are hard to justify economically for a large portion of the population.

I do think there are a decent number who like the idea and are willing to shell out the premium.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:04 AM   #149
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Your RAV4 EV includes three (3) years of roadside assistance, valid only in the Continental United States and Alaska. This coverage includes towing for failure of a warranted part.

• A service provider will tow the vehicle to the closest Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer within 100 miles of the vehicle’s location. If the vehicle is located in excess of 100 miles from an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer, then the vehicle will be towed to the nearest Toyota dealer and the customer will be responsible for additional towing charges to return the vehicle to an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer, if necessary. Quote:
DUE TO HIGH VOLTAGE AND THE RISK OF INJURY THIS VEHICLE’S POWERTRAIN AND HIGH VOLTAGE SYSTEMS SHOULD BE SERVICED AT AN AUTHORIZED TOYOTA RAV4 EV DEALERSHIP.

powertrain and high voltage component maintenance or repairs should be performed by an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer.

• Because warranty service for your electric powertrain can only be performed by an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer in California, Toyota does not recommend home-basing the vehicle outside the State of California.
Shipping it back to California for service would be expensive, time consuming, and a huge pain in the ass. We want one, but that's not acceptable

The authorized repair facility is Tesla in California, let see if I can find it.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:04 AM   #150
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Default oyota RAV4 EV demonstrates the potential for an electric SUV

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Toyota RAV4 EV demonstrates the potential for an electric SUV Oct 5, 2012 11:00 AM


A smooth-running Toyota RAV4 that does not consume gasoline is now at dealerships, and we recently borrowed one to sample at our test track. And so far, we're seeing real appeal in an electric sport-ute.
The RAV4 EV is derived from the current small SUV. Although the highly rated RAV4 will be replaced by a completely redesigned RAV next spring, this electric version will be sold over three years. Toyota plans to build just 2,600 examples only.

The electric bits come from electric-carmaker Tesla, including a sizable 41.8-kWh lithium-ion battery, and they are matched with a motor driving the front wheels good for 154 hp. Toyota says the RAV4 EV has been EPA rated with a 103-mile range, but a company representative said drivers should expect a real-world range of typically around 115 miles--well beyond current electric cars in our experience. Charge times are claimed to be as little as 5 hours from a 240V power supply and as much as 52 hours from a standard 120V outlet. That may not sound impressive but considering the battery size it is, and that's thanks to a 10-kWh on-board charger.

To maximize efficiency, aerodynamic aids include smaller outside mirrors, a smoother front fascia, larger rear spoiler, and underbody panels to improve airflow. Toyota says that no interior passenger or cargo room is lost to the electrical components, although the rear-mounted spare on conventional models is gone to save weight; it is replaced with a can of aerosol sealant.


Based on our initial experience behind the wheel, the overall driving experience is much like a conventional RAV4 despite the 400-pound plus weight penalty over a V6 model. Initial thrust is punchy, with quiet, continuous power. There is little driveline whine or other odd noises. Ride and handling are pretty close to the conventional RAV. Brakes are smooth and linear, with none of the jerkiness or grabby feel sometimes experienced with regenerative braking systems.

In Sport mode we even experienced some torque steer under hard acceleration, which can make the electric RAV feel darty on broken or uneven pavement. Toyota claims a 0-60 mph acceleration time of 6.8 seconds in Sport mode, just one tenth of a second slower than our last, rather sprightly V6 RAV4. In the less power-hungry Normal mode, the RAV4 EV can accelerate from 0-60 mph in 8.6 seconds--similar to a four-cylinder Camry.

EV buyers get their choice of one trim level and zero options, with cloth seats and interior appointments on a par with base conventional models. The exception is the dashboard, which gets an 8.1-inch touch screen containing EV usage and charge info. It also includes audio controls, backup camera, a navigation system that shows charging stations in its search options, and the Toyota Entune telematics system. An Eco coach rates your acceleration and braking usage on scale of 100 to encourage more energy-efficient driving. Conventional knobs for climate controls have also been given the ax, being replaced with touch-sensitive capacitive controls.

We have reservations about the loss of conventional knobs and buttons because of increased risk of driver distraction. However, Toyota says the controls are an experiment, and that their EV customers are early adopter techno types who won't find them objectionable.

The RAV4 EV is priced at a heady $49,800, but it is eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit, plus the state of California will kick in another $2,500 credit. The current plan limits sales to the Golden State only, but Toyota says they will re-evaluate offering it in other regions in a year.

One reason for the hesitancy to expand availability may be that California-based Tesla will be handling all warranty claims and service on the battery, which carries an eight-year, 100,000-mile warranty. The rest of the EV is covered by the same 3-year/36,000-mile basic and 60-month/60,000-mile powertrain warranty of other RAV models.

We'll be living with the RAV4 EV and putting it through its paces at our test track over the next few days, and we'll report back soon with what we find.
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...ctric-suv.html
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