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Old 05-09-2012, 12:49 PM   #1
toxin
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Default Running too rich.. advice needed

Now I'm working on my '07 WRX doing an Open Source reflash after I sold my UTEC.
I did a couple of pulls and figured that the AFR is running waay rich (10's at any boost over 15 PSI):

Code:
NB(AFR)	Load	(rpm)	PSI)	MAF(g/s)estAFR	TPS  Wideband 
11.14	2.07	3562	11.17	128.93	12.43	94.12	11.4
11.14	2.17	3644	12.19	140.1	12.3	93.33	11.4
11.14	2.29	3669	13.2	149.23	12.23	89.02	11.1
11.14	2.42	3729	14.22	158.22	12.13	86.67	11.1
11.14	2.54	3800	15.67	167.92	12.02	86.67	10.9
11.14	2.65	3855	16.83	177.01	11.89	87.06	10.9
11.14	2.75	3924	17.85	183.71	11.75	86.67	10.7
11.14	2.85	4006	18.57	190.95	11.64	87.06	10.7
11.14	2.9	4053	18.86	194.65	11.59	87.06	10.7
11.14	2.96	4098	19.44	202.15	11.53	87.45	10.5
11.14	3	4185	19.73	206.5	11.49	89.8	10.5
11.14	3.01	4254	20.02	213.63	11.46	94.9	10.7
11.14	3.04	4310	20.02	214.52	11.45	94.9	10.7
11.14	3.04	4368	20.02	220.75	11.42	93.73	10.7
11.14	3.07	4446	20.02	226.79	11.39	89.8	10.7
11.14	3.07	4512	20.02	229.68	11.38	87.45	10.7
11.14	3.07	4605	19.88	232.08	11.37	86.27	10.5
11.14	3.06	4655	19.73	236.41	11.36	85.88	10.5
11.14	3.06	4703	19.59	234.97	11.36	85.88	10.4
11.14	3.03	4798	19.44	237.37	11.38	85.49	10.4
11.14	3	4813	19.15	239.78	11.4	85.1	10.4
11.14	2.99	4911	19.15	240.26	11.39	83.92	10.3
11.14	2.98	4999	18.72	243.63	11.42	83.14	10.3
11.14	2.97	5016	18.57	247.54	11.43	81.96	10.3
11.14	2.97	5091	18.43	249.07	11.43	82.35	10.3
11.14	2.96	5157	18.28	251.63	11.45	82.75	10.3
11.14	2.93	5224	17.99	251.63	11.47	82.35	10.4
11.14	2.92	5298	17.99	253.17	11.48	83.14	10.4
11.14	2.9	5349	17.7	255.22	11.48	82.35	10.2
11.14	2.9	5384	17.7	257.26	11.49	81.57	10.2
11.14	2.88	5467	17.41	259.83	11.47	82.35	10.2
11.14	2.86	5514	17.27	260.85	11.47	83.14	10.2
11.14	2.84	5566	17.12	261.87	11.46	84.71	10.2
11.14	2.82	5635	17.12	262.39	11.46	88.24	10.2
11.14	2.8	5686	17.41	265.59	11.46	89.02	10.2
11.14	2.81	5780	17.41	267.74	11.45	87.06	10
11.14	2.78	5838	17.41	267.74	11.45	86.27	10
11.14	2.77	5827	17.12	266.12	11.48	81.57	10
11.14	2.75	5960	16.98	270.42	11.47	80.78	10
11.14	2.73	5976	16.83	270.42	11.46	80.39	10
11.14	2.71	6005	16.25	266.66	11.47	80.78	10.2
11.14	2.68	6073	15.82	269.89	11.48	80.78	10.2
11.14	2.65	6127	15.67	267.2	11.49	80.39	10
11.14	2.63	6179	15.38	266.66	11.5	80	10
11.14	2.58	6191	15.09	265.59	11.52	79.61	10
11.14	2.57	6308	14.95	266.66	11.51	79.22	10
11.14	2.54	6345	14.65	265.59	11.5	78.82	10
11.14	2.52	6392	14.36	264.51	11.5	78.82	10
11.14	2.5	6416	13.93	264.51	11.47	76.86	10
11.14	2.43	6440	13.64	262.39	11.46	69.8	10
11.14	2.44	6485	13.2	263.97	11.44	62.75	10
11.14	2.4	6586	12.91	259.83	11.42	60.39	10
11.14	2.37	6620	12.62	256.24	11.39	59.22	10
11.14	2.32	6658	11.17	255.22	11.42	48.24	10
11.14	1.86	6363	-2.32	180.27	11.72	9.02	10
11.14	0.48	6150	-9.87	15.17	13.95	3.92	10
11.48	0.19	5955	-11.9	11.8	14.64	2.75	10
11.94	0.08	5816	-12.33	4.33	14.7	2.75	18.4
I tried to add the estimated AFR in the OL fueling table, but obviously it does not help. (or, should I just keep going and add the estimated AFR??)




Mods are:
-700 cc injectors
-TD05-18g turbo.
-TGV deletes
-EWG

Any advice how to reach the target AFR 11.0 - 11.2 @ 20 PSI will be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:54 PM   #2
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wanna send me your map, I will take a look and give you a few suggestions

Cory_schander@yahoo.com

Cory
Mayhem Tuning
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:28 AM   #3
toxin
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Thanks to Cory.
Had everything sorted out.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:17 PM   #4
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how did you fix it? looks like your maf scaling was off or you had a boost leak.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmartynyuk
how did you fix it? looks like your maf scaling was off or you had a boost leak.
Consider for a moment, the way your stock FPR works. when increasing boost pressure, you also raise your fuel pressure. This in turn increases the flow rate of your injectors, and can cause a rich condition. The ideal way to tune for this change would be to work the injectors high and low slopes. But the easiest way is to re-scale the MAF.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:28 PM   #6
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right, thats why I asked if he rescaled his maf.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:40 PM   #7
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Just because its the easiest way, doesn't mean its "correct"
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
Consider for a moment, the way your stock FPR works. when increasing boost pressure, you also raise your fuel pressure.
Right

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
This in turn increases the flow rate of your injectors, and can cause a rich condition.
Wrong

The higher fuel pressure is used to offset the higher manifold pressure, so the pressure delta from rail to manifold (the thing that controls fuel flow rate) stays the same at ~43 psi.

Higher boost does mean higher rail pressure, but that does not mean you swing rich. The entire point of the FPR is to keep the rail-manifold delta the same, so your fuel flow rate DOESN'T change with changing manifold pressure.

The OP's problem could have been caused by many things...if the injectors hadn't been tuned for then that's #1 on the radar. If the injectors had been tuned for then like alex said, it was probably a leak or bad MAF scaling.
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
The OP's problem could have been caused by many things...if the injectors hadn't been tuned for then that's #1 on the radar. If the injectors had been tuned for then like alex said, it was probably a leak or bad MAF scaling.
So then explain to me why my AFRs had a rich swing after I increased my boost pressure from the stock 11 psi, up to 16... And then again when I increased to 18?

Is my stock MAF curve bad? Why did I only need to scale the top end 3v+? Why did my curve "peel" in the same manner as it would if my injectors scaling was wrong?

No, I don't have any leaks... So scratch that off your list.
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #10
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Most likely explanation is a bad MAF scaling. Boost pressure does not affect fueling in a MAF-based system (unless of course the higher boost pressure causes you to saturate the MAF or the injectors, or puts you into an untuned region of the MAF, but that's a separate issue).

Remember, MAF doesn't care about boost boost pressure, MAF only cares about air flow. If what you said was true, it would be impossible to control fueling properly using a MAF. Just think about near redline. Once you pass about 5000 RPM, boost starts tapering, and flow doesn't change much. The MAF reads about the same, while boost drops from say 18 psi to say 14 psi. If the fueling system depended on boost pressure like you're suggesting, you would be screwed. Luckily, it doesn't.

Take your setup. You're implying that you changed the MAF scaling due to the higher boost. What happens if you let off the throttle slightly, so you're not running the WOT 18 psi anymore, you're running 11 psi at partial throttle. Does your car swing ridiculously lean? It shouldn't, if it does then there's something very wrong with your tune, and has nothing to do with the FPR.
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
Most likely explanation is a bad MAF scaling. Boost pressure does not affect fueling in a MAF-based system (unless of course the higher boost pressure causes you to saturate the MAF or the injectors, or puts you into an untuned region of the MAF, but that's a separate issue).

Remember, MAF doesn't care about boost boost pressure, MAF only cares about air flow. If what you said was true, it would be impossible to control fueling properly using a MAF. Just think about near redline. Once you pass about 5000 RPM, boost starts tapering, and flow doesn't change much. The MAF reads about the same, while boost drops from say 18 psi to say 14 psi. If the fueling system depended on boost pressure like you're suggesting, you would be screwed. Luckily, it doesn't.

Take your setup. You're implying that you changed the MAF scaling due to the higher boost. What happens if you let off the throttle slightly, so you're not running the WOT 18 psi anymore, you're running 11 psi at partial throttle. Does your car swing ridiculously lean? It shouldn't, if it does then there's something very wrong with your tune, and has nothing to do with the FPR.
have you ever tuned anything other than a subaru? In all the time I've been reviewing the different forms of tuning for these cars, i have never heard or seen anything about a "rail-manifold delta". Now I will admit that the subies are vastly different than the Ford systems that I am used to.

But implying that a rise in rail pressure doesn't result in higher injector flow, is just asinine!
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:19 PM   #12
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Do you have any idea what the FPR is used for? This is not a rising rate, it's a 1:1. The ENTIRE reason for it is to maintain a pressure differential of 43 psi across the injector so that flow vs IDC remains a constant with changing manifold pressure.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2339842

This isn't a new concept...it's been around for ages. A rise in rail pressure doesn't cause an increase in flow, because the pressure that the injector is spraying into is rising as well. The absolute pressure makes no difference to an injector. What matters is the pressure in the rail versus the pressure that the nozzle is spraying into. Think about it this way...if rail pressure stayed the same, and boost pressure rose, what would happen? The injector would be spraying into a higher pressure environment, so flow would go down. How would you counteract this? By raising the rail pressure accordingly. That's exactly what the FPR does.

Last edited by the suicidal eggroll; 05-10-2012 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:28 PM   #13
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
have you ever tuned anything other than a subaru? In all the time I've been reviewing the different forms of tuning for these cars, i have never heard or seen anything about a "rail-manifold delta". Now I will admit that the subies are vastly different than the Ford systems that I am used to.

But implying that a rise in rail pressure doesn't result in higher injector flow, is just asinine!
injector flow is controlled by the ecu, the more air you force in the manifold the higher the injector duty cycle will be in order to meet your target a/f ratio. but changing fuel rail pressure will increase injector max flow, meaning you will have to change your injector flow scaling in the ecu.
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmartynyuk View Post
but changing fuel rail pressure will increase injector max flow, meaning you will have to change your injector flow scaling in the ecu.
Changing the BASE fuel pressure will (that is, the pressure difference between the rails and the manifold), but an FPR changing rail pressure to adjust for changes in the manifold pressure, will not affect your injector flow, because the pressure difference between the rails and the manifold stays a constant.

BTW - changing your base pressure will require changes to a lot more than injector scaling. With higher base pressure comes higher latency, you need to rescale the per-cyl fueling comps, tip-in, etc.
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
Changing the BASE fuel pressure will (that is, the pressure difference between the rails and the manifold), but an FPR changing rail pressure to adjust for changes in the manifold pressure, will not affect your injector flow, because the pressure difference between the rails and the manifold stays a constant.

BTW - changing your base pressure will require changes to a lot more than injector scaling. With higher base pressure comes higher latency, you need to rescale the per-cyl fueling comps, tip-in, etc.
Yeah thats what I meant. I know it in my head just not very good at explaining things.
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Old 05-10-2012, 05:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmartynyuk View Post
injector flow is controlled by the ecu, the more air you force in the manifold the higher the injector duty cycle will be in order to meet your target a/f ratio. but changing fuel rail pressure will increase injector max flow, meaning you will have to change your injector flow scaling in the ecu.

Injector flow is a static measurement of the volume that can be attained with a 100% duty cycle VS rail pressure.

The computer only controls how long the injector stays open. Not how much fuel goes through it... THAT is all calculated.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
have you ever tuned anything other than a subaru? In all the time I've been reviewing the different forms of tuning for these cars, i have never heard or seen anything about a "rail-manifold delta". Now I will admit that the subies are vastly different than the Ford systems that I am used to.
Pretty much all modern EFI factory forced induction cars use a rising rate fuel pressure for the very reason eggroll said. Pretty sure it's mentioned in several books as well. Juust to name a few: (Maximum Boost by Corky Bell , How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartman, Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish)
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:02 PM   #19
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Im no tuning expert but thought id chime in. To support what eggroll is saying in a highly amplified way, just take direct injection into mind. The rail pressure has to be in thousands of psi to be able to squirt fuel directly into a combustion chamber...and even 40-50k on diesels therefore supporting the need for higher rail pressure for increased boost/combustion chamber pressures. Just my 0.02.
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:31 PM   #20
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Gdi engines use a higher fuel pressure to increase the atomization of the fuel... Not to overcome cylinder pressures.

Typical Gdi cylinder pressures are 220-250 psi. Do you really think an exponential increase in rail pressure is really required?
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:31 PM   #21
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Ford states that for their ecoboost engine the fuel rail pressures vary from 200 to 2150 psi depending on the demands of the driver...

It is true what you say about increased atomization which is required for faster vaporization which is accomplished by an increased number of smaller diameter holes on the injector.
I guess the need for higher pressures would only come from multiple injection events, which take place at different times during the compression/combustion cycles. That paired up with changing combustion timing. Maybe I'm diggin too deep lol...

Btw...didnt mean to thread jack.
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by japanesestar
Ford states that for their ecoboost engine the fuel rail pressures vary from 200 to 2150 psi depending on the demands of the driver...

It is true what you say about increased atomization which is required for faster vaporization which is accomplished by an increased number of smaller diameter holes on the injector.
I guess the need for higher pressures would only come from multiple injection events, which take place at different times during the compression/combustion cycles. That paired up with changing combustion timing. Maybe I'm diggin too deep lol...

Btw...didnt mean to thread jack.
Yes, to attain cylinder mixtures such as stratified, homogenous, and the other four variations of them.
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