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Old 05-11-2012, 01:44 PM   #1
bschweig
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Default Walbro 416 LPH In-Tank E85 Fuel Pump installed in 08STi, issues and solutions?

We recently installed one of these in my 08STi. We believe it is one of the first applications of this in the front range area of Colorado. We are having some subsequent issues that I hope folks with an interest in this might help us solve.

The car is a 08STi with extensive mods (i.e., Benson sleeved block, Cosworth internals, DOM3xtr, all supporting stuff; current tune is 435 whp 410 wtq at 24psi and 11.1 AFR on a dynodynamics). Its a daily driver that sees the track a lot.

The fuel system has the in tank 416lph with dedicated hard wiring, a Aeromotive EFI FPR, Aeromotive in line filter (the e85 spec one), AP fuel rails, and Bosch ev-14 1000cc injectors. We installed the 416 in place of a walbro 255 that while working fine was likely limiting or will be limiting when I go roated on the turbo.

The car was retuned after the pump was in. Base pressure is around 60psi at start up, rising to around 80ish (I think) at WOT. We were able to drop the AFRs to around 11 from around 12 on the previous tune and pick up around 20 whp.

The install of the unit in the plastic in tank pump holder was a bit tricky. This pump has a fat base and is slightly longer than the old 255. We had to grind out more of the plastic housing, etc. On the first attempt we left too much fuel hose between the pump and the inlet and after a few days it pushed the hose off as the pump slide sideways in the housing. I lost fuel pressure and barely limped back into the shop. We redid the install, grinding out more material and shortening the hose so the housing unit clamps down better and doesnt alter the pumps orientation (we hope). We will redo the install one more time using AN fittings to really make it solid.

The issue we are having is as follows. At very light throttle pressure there is a noticeable and annoying bucking/jerking. This was not present with the 255 (which was on the OEM relay). This rough running may exist at full throttle but its just not noticeable. There is nothing in the tune that we can see that would cause this, so we think it is the new pump or its wiring (or fuel lines?). With the hard wiring the pump runs at 100% all the time of course so perhaps at light throttle there is too much fuel pressure or the return line is not sufficient?

Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts? We are considering a fuel pump control unit (like the Aeromotive Fuel Pump Speed Controller) but this is pricey and its not entirely clear it will help?


Note - I am not a fuel system expert by any means, so please be gentle.


thanks!
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Last edited by bschweig; 05-12-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:50 PM   #2
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Which filter sock are you using?
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:18 PM   #3
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Thats a high base pressure for such a small turbo. You should be fine at 45 base with a 1:1 rate.

Anyway make sure the sock isnt getting pinched and you are getting good flow
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:19 PM   #4
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some install pics would help future buyers of this pump
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport View Post
Thats a high base pressure for such a small turbo. You should be fine at 45 base with a 1:1 rate.

Anyway make sure the sock isnt getting pinched and you are getting good flow
Thanks.

we are using the large square "new" sock that comes with the install kits. it does get bunched up in the canister which i dont like. we have an older (and dirty) one of the smaller types and can switch to this and see if it helps.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
some install pics would help future buyers of this pump

yes. ill try and do that when we switch to the AN fittings.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:30 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport View Post
Thats a high base pressure for such a small turbo. You should be fine at 45 base with a 1:1 rate.

Anyway make sure the sock isnt getting pinched and you are getting good flow

Im not sure id call a DOM3xtr a small turbo?

The 60 base pressure is at start up. Ill have to see what it drops to at idle. it may be closer to 40.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bschweig View Post
Im not sure id call a DOM3xtr a small turbo?

The 60 base pressure is at start up. Ill have to see what it drops to at idle. it may be closer to 40.
Check what it is at idle.

I didn't mean to offend you with the turbo size comment, I just meant it wasn't a 4088R 700whp car. I deal with a lot of guys that run BIG stuff (76mm, 91mm turbos etc)

Anyway check the sock it could be getting jammed up in the housing.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport View Post
Check what it is at idle.

I didn't mean to offend you with the turbo size comment, I just meant it wasn't a 4088R 700whp car. I deal with a lot of guys that run BIG stuff (76mm, 91mm turbos etc)

Anyway check the sock it could be getting jammed up in the housing.
oh, im not offended...

if the sock is jammed up would that explain the rough running at very light throttle? with more throttle is fuel just sucked up harder and any bunching in the sock is less relevant? id love it if it was this simple.

do you run the smaller socks for in tank pumps?

Last edited by bschweig; 05-11-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bschweig View Post
oh, im not offended...its the motion of the ocean...!

if the sock is jammed up would that explain the rough running at very light throttle? with more throttle is fuel just sucked up harder and any bunching in the sock is less relevant? id love it if it was this simple.

do you run the smaller socks for in tank pumps?
I usually use part number125-147




Also check your grounds and connectors make sure they are GOOD and tight
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bschweig View Post
We were able to drop the AFRs to around 11 from around 12 on the previous tune and pick up around 20 whp.
THANK YOU! I'm so tired of people tuning e85 cars around 12-13 AFR (Gas calibrated) thinking that's the right thing to do.

Low to mid 11's is the right place to tune these cars (.77 Lambda or about 6.9 AFR- ish for e85)

Good for you guys!
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
THANK YOU! I'm so tired of people tuning e85 cars around 12-13 AFR (Gas calibrated) thinking that's the right thing to do.

Low to mid 11's is the right place to tune these cars (.77 Lambda or about 6.9 AFR- ish for e85)

Good for you guys!
Agreed! Now we need and install guide I don't want to rewire my fuel pump, does any one sell a connector for this new pump?
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:00 PM   #13
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My testing on the 262 (old 400lph) showed that it went into relief 70-80 psi. I wont personaly push mine past 75, flow starts to realy bounce above 75psi. Is there a reason your not running the OE fuel pump controler?

I tore apart a 08+ bucket sender because I was leary of the OE passages and filter as a restriction. Yea its pretty bad. I re-worked the whole deal so it feeds straight out of the sender to -8, bypassing all the OE stuff (passages, and filter). From the OE pump your doubling the pump output, IMO thats asking a lot of the OE lines and sender passages.

I just started mock up on my new 267 (new 416lph) pump in an 08+ sender. This pump is 10mm longer than a 255lph, and that barley fits (must smash bucket closed), if you are running a 255lph in an 08+ you know what I mean.

I would love to see how you guys are getting the 416lph to fit using the OE passages. and filter in the sender.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:04 PM   #14
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OFF TOPIC

So I have been keeping my eye on this new E85 fuel pump for a while and I recently noticed that prices just skyrocketed.

When companies such as Maperformance, Summit Racing, Titan Motorsports were accepting pre-orders, they were charging $160. Now they all changed the prices with some companies charging $200, others $220 and some $270 . I know for a fact that Lethal Performance was charging $220 when they were accepting pre-orders. So what it is going on here? Do they see that lethal performance was charging more and they wised up? or is it just priced the way it should be?

It is hard for me to believe that a pump really similar to the 400lph with parker connector <$5 will cost so much. I have been running my Walbro 255lph for about 4-5 years on E85 and I haven't had any issues. Currently the regular 400lph is available at some places for $145 dollars with the install kit. I think you can E85-proof it for less money than the E85 pump and modify it for more flow.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
OFF TOPIC

So I have been keeping my eye on this new E85 fuel pump for a while and I recently noticed that prices just skyrocketed.

When companies such as Maperformance, Summit Racing, Titan Motorsports were accepting pre-orders, they were charging $160. Now they all changed the prices with some companies charging $200, others $220 and some $270 . I know for a fact that Lethal Performance was charging $220 when they were accepting pre-orders. So what it is going on here? Do they see that lethal performance was charging more and they wised up? or is it just priced the way it should be?

It is hard for me to believe that a pump really similar to the 400lph with parker connector <$5 will cost so much. I have been running my Walbro 255lph for about 4-5 years on E85 and I haven't had any issues. Currently the regular 400lph is available at some places for $145 dollars with the install kit. I think you can E85-proof it for less money than the E85 pump and modify it for more flow.
I told you those guys weren't going to be able to do it for that price. I knew I didn't get ripped off when I bought them. Cost is much higher on this pump. MAP (minimum advertised price) set by Walbro is $220

Here is the connector, your welcome

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/829

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/824
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Limit Motorsport View Post
Check what it is at idle.

I didn't mean to offend you with the turbo size comment, I just meant it wasn't a 4088R 700whp car. I deal with a lot of guys that run BIG stuff (76mm, 91mm turbos etc)

Anyway check the sock it could be getting jammed up in the housing.
Fuel pressure at idle is 58psi. It was around 60 on the 255 as well.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albersondh View Post
My testing on the 262 (old 400lph) showed that it went into relief 70-80 psi. I wont personaly push mine past 75, flow starts to realy bounce above 75psi. Is there a reason your not running the OE fuel pump controler?

I tore apart a 08+ bucket sender because I was leary of the OE passages and filter as a restriction. Yea its pretty bad. I re-worked the whole deal so it feeds straight out of the sender to -8, bypassing all the OE stuff (passages, and filter). From the OE pump your doubling the pump output, IMO thats asking a lot of the OE lines and sender passages.

I just started mock up on my new 267 (new 416lph) pump in an 08+ sender. This pump is 10mm longer than a 255lph, and that barley fits (must smash bucket closed), if you are running a 255lph in an 08+ you know what I mean.

I would love to see how you guys are getting the 416lph to fit using the OE passages. and filter in the sender.

We will take pictures when it is rebuilt with AN fittings. I suspect it will be much like yours. Could you provide a little more detail on what you did to the inside of the bucket? Are you using OE lines from the bucket into the engine bay?

This has been a useful thread, but I am hopping to steer it back to our original question of the cause for and possible solutions for the rough performance at light throttle.

Do you see a connection to this and our use of the OE passages and lines? We are also using the large filter sock that comes with the install kit which must be kinda folded up inside the bucket. There is some uncertainty if this could be a problem or not...

Thanks
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
THANK YOU! I'm so tired of people tuning e85 cars around 12-13 AFR (Gas calibrated) thinking that's the right thing to do.

Low to mid 11's is the right place to tune these cars (.77 Lambda or about 6.9 AFR- ish for e85)

Good for you guys!
The car has always been tuned by Harvey (the boost creep) - he does solid work.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
OFF TOPIC

So I have been keeping my eye on this new E85 fuel pump for a while and I recently noticed that prices just skyrocketed.
I'm not sure where my builder sourced it, but we got it for around 180$ I think...
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:10 AM   #20
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I'm not sure where my builder sourced it, but we got it for around 180$ I think...
can you find out from where? that seems about right 160 + shipping.

Thanks
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:24 AM   #21
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bschweig View Post
Fuel pressure at idle is 58psi. It was around 60 on the 255 as well.
Yea that is pretty high when you figure your adding 25psi on top that brings it to 83 psi which is getting out of the efficiency range of the pump. You might have more fuel if you turned it down to 45ish at idle.

Take a look at the flow pump flow chart and you will see what I am talking about
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bschweig View Post
Could you provide a little more detail on what you did to the inside of the bucket? Are you using OE lines from the bucket into the engine bay?

solutions for the rough performance at light throttle.

Do you see a connection to this and our use of the OE passages and lines?
Thanks

Inside bucket, bypassed all OE stuff, straight out to -8. Then -8 to filter, Y-block, -8 x2 to rails, -8 x2 to FPR, -6 return.

If the restrictive OE sump passages and filter were an issue it would come up during higher load/rev/TPS conditions.

Hard to say what the light throttle issue is or if its even related to the pump. Also dont know how you guys have the pump installed in the sender so I would be guessing. Need pics.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by albersondh View Post
Inside bucket, bypassed all OE stuff, straight out to -8. Then -8 to filter, Y-block, -8 x2 to rails, -8 x2 to FPR, -6 return.

If the restrictive OE sump passages and filter were an issue it would come up during higher load/rev/TPS conditions.

Hard to say what the light throttle issue is or if its even related to the pump. Also dont know how you guys have the pump installed in the sender so I would be guessing. Need pics.
thanks. we will replicate most of this. are you using a sock filter inside the bucket? if so, which one?

ill take photos next time its all apart...
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:17 PM   #25
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Is your pump still using the factory fuel controller or battery hard wired?
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