Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday September 16, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Service & Maintenance

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2012, 01:42 PM   #1
TomSTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 300431
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: N. Virginia
Vehicle:
2012 WRX STi
ISM

Default 2012 STi Oil Analysis

I switched to RedLine 5W-30 at exactly 3000 miles, and drained it 4084 miles later. My copper is through the roof, and I have high aluminum and other metals.

Blackstone says it's still due to break-in, so I guess that's it, but I've seen other reports on this forum from new STi's with 1/10 the copper. Am I losing a bearing?


http://freepdfhosting.com/61ed518dc0.pdf
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
TomSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 02:14 PM   #2
tazswing
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63767
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: PDX
Vehicle:
2009 OXT 5-spd
2011 STi hatch

Default

I think you need to monitor it for a bit longer from what I have read. I have been getting oil analysis for all my changes, 2011 sti now with 365whp and 9000 miles. Certainly all the metals, etc. have come down with each analysis. These engines are not super precisely hand built, etc., so hard to know exactly what is going on in there so new.

Is the car having any other issues? holding boost? discoloration or smell change in exhaust gases? Cold start stuff?
tazswing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 02:51 PM   #3
TomSTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 300431
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: N. Virginia
Vehicle:
2012 WRX STi
ISM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tazswing View Post

Is the car having any other issues? holding boost? discoloration or smell change in exhaust gases? Cold start stuff?
Hello Taz, thanks for the reply.

I went to Cobb AP stage 1 91 Octane ( I use Shell 93) at about 4000 miles, no driveability issues whatsoever, no noises, purrs at idle, no smoke, stock airbox/filter.

I drove the first 1000 miles carefully, but with enough throttle to seat the rings right. Since then I've run it up through the gears hard now and again, but no real launches or visits to the rev limiter. Lots of highway miles, no low-rpm lugging.

I'll definitely do another change/sample after 3000-4000 miles and see how I'm doing.

Cheers, Tom
TomSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 03:48 PM   #4
b1aze
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 284003
Join Date: May 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Marlborough, MA
Vehicle:
2010 Alpine 135i

Default

Our cars have a copper lined oil cooler which seems to keep copper readings higher than, say, WRXs. I've gone through 3 OCIs with T6 and just finally got my wear metals in the "normal" range, and that's after 20k miles.
b1aze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 03:59 PM   #5
white240hatch
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 95556
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: savannah, ga
Vehicle:
2012 WRX 5dr
silver

Default

off topic but...after seeing this post it makes me want to get a test on my 12. Do i just get the standard $25 test or what? thanks!
white240hatch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 05:54 PM   #6
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by b1aze
Our cars have a copper lined oil cooler which seems to keep copper readings higher than, say, WRXs. I've gone through 3 OCIs with T6 and just finally got my wear metals in the "normal" range, and that's after 20k miles.
This. And different oils react with the oil cooler differently so if you're comparing uoa's you'll need to find another STI with similar mileage using Red Line 5W-30. Also, the esters in Red Line have a scavenging affect so the first couple of uoa's on RL will sometimes appear that wear is high.

I would say this is a very good uoa considering that it's still breaking in and is the first run on Red Line. Copper should drop on the next run, but will likely still be higher than normal. Dave at Red Line is very good about responding to emails so drop them a line from their web site if you want.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 05-21-2012 at 06:01 PM.
bluesubie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 05:59 PM   #7
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by white240hatch
off topic but...after seeing this post it makes me want to get a test on my 12. Do i just get the standard $25 test or what? thanks!
Yes, but if you're planning to extend the interval to 7,500 miles I would add the TBN for the first run or two on an oil to make sure that it's up to the task.

-Dennis
bluesubie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 06:02 PM   #8
tazswing
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63767
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: PDX
Vehicle:
2009 OXT 5-spd
2011 STi hatch

Default

ya, stick with the same oil for a while if you can. I just get the basic analysis. You can get them cheaper if you buy in bulk from Blackstone, which is what tuning shops often do so look around before you order your own.

Also, you can talk with the folks at Blackstone and see if they will make your own batch number so you can have a unique identifier in their system. But you need to call them and ask for this.

cheers.
tazswing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 08:35 PM   #9
TomSTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 300431
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: N. Virginia
Vehicle:
2012 WRX STi
ISM

Default

Thanks Gents. I'll send a copy to RedLine too, and I'll post back with anything interesting.

Cheers, Tom
TomSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 09:44 PM   #10
Uncle Scotty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK Houston
we have an Uncle

Default

there is no way in a cold frozen over hell these engines are 'broken in' at less that 7k or 8k miles

and no way in a cold frozen over hell id use any synthetic oil in them until after that


and there is no way in a cold frozen over hell id follow the 'manufacturers recomendations' on break in, either


but that is just me......i dont know nuffin
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 04:04 AM   #11
TomSTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 300431
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: N. Virginia
Vehicle:
2012 WRX STi
ISM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
there is no way in a cold frozen over hell these engines are 'broken in' at less that 7k or 8k miles

and no way in a cold frozen over hell id use any synthetic oil in them until after that


and there is no way in a cold frozen over hell id follow the 'manufacturers recomendations' on break in, either


but that is just me......i dont know nuffin
Thank you, US, you've answered a number of questions that no one asked.
TomSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 01:22 PM   #12
gpshumway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43950
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
07 WRX LTD Wagon
Satin White Pearl

Default

High copper readings shouldn't scare you with the first OCI on Redline. My car did it too. You can see my UOA history HERE.

I'll have an oci on Redline 0w30 back from Blackstone soon. I'll update when I get it.
gpshumway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 01:39 PM   #13
TomSTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 300431
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: N. Virginia
Vehicle:
2012 WRX STi
ISM

Default

Thanks, GP. Are you switching to 0W-30 for MN winter startups, or some other reason?

Here's what Dave at RedLine had to say:

"The copper level is higher than I might expect, though not likely a bearing as lead and tin would also be elevated. The copper is likely from an oxide inside an oil cooler or an over plate on a cam shaft, either way nothing to be concerned about.
I dont recall seeing oil analysis specifically from this low mileage STi.

The 5W30 should be a good viscosity for the engine, certainly nothing here to indicate otherwise."
TomSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 03:42 PM   #14
TomSTi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 300431
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: N. Virginia
Vehicle:
2012 WRX STi
ISM

Default

More: "In a new cooler the copper would tend to have a fresh non passivated surface, the oil will tend to react with that copper oxide, appearing initially as higher levels in oil analysis tapering off over time."
TomSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 06:52 PM   #15
gpshumway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43950
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
07 WRX LTD Wagon
Satin White Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomSTi View Post
Thanks, GP. Are you switching to 0W-30 for MN winter startups, or some other reason?
You got it. Frigid MN winters are the reason for using the 0w30. Redline 5w30 is back in the car for the summer.
gpshumway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 09:17 PM   #16
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
You got it. Frigid MN winters are the reason for using the 0w30. Redline 5w30 is back in the car for the summer.
MN or the moon?

Viscosity Grade SAE 5W30
Vis @ 100C, cSt 10.6
Vis @ 40C, cSt 62
Viscosity Index 162
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 60@-30
Pour Point, C -45
Pour Point, F -49

Viscosity Grade SAE 0W30
Vis @ 100C, cSt 10.9
Vis @ 40C, cSt 57
Viscosity Index 183
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 56@-35
Pour Point, C -60
Pour Point, F -76



-Dennis
bluesubie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 09:34 PM   #17
Uncle Scotty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK Houston
we have an Uncle

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
MN or the moon?

Viscosity Grade SAE 5W30
Vis @ 100C, cSt 10.6
Vis @ 40C, cSt 62
Viscosity Index 162
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 60@-30
Pour Point, C -45
Pour Point, F -49

Viscosity Grade SAE 0W30
Vis @ 100C, cSt 10.9
Vis @ 40C, cSt 57
Viscosity Index 183
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 56@-35
Pour Point, C -60
Pour Point, F -76



-Dennis
yeah.....the 0w30 gc is good stuff.....and no need to change it out in the summer, either
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 07:23 AM   #18
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Oh, I presumed gps was talking about RL 0w-30 but it probably is GC.

-Dennis
bluesubie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 10:22 AM   #19
gpshumway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43950
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
07 WRX LTD Wagon
Satin White Pearl

Default

No no, I have used GC extensively in the past (see my UOAs), but this time it is Redline 0w30. Yes, it's oil designed for the vacuum of space.

GC is not as good. VI of only ~165 IIRC. The new SN version of M1 0w40 is slightly thicker at operating temp, but at very cold temps it's just as thin as GC owing to its 185 VI. Redline 0w30 of course beats them both for extreme cold, but is not theoretically as good for high temps, especially compared to M1.

It's funny. After I became confident I wouldn't have a warranty claim on my engine, I looked for oils for longer drains. I was torn between M1 0w40 all year on an easy to remember 5k change schedule and Redline 0w30 & 5w30 on a six month change schedule. At the time that would have equated to 6-7kmi OCIs on Redline. Now my work situation has changed and I get to telecommute more, meaning the 6 month intervals are only 4-5kmi. I may go back to the other plan and use M1 0w40.

One of these days I'll post the UOA history of my dad's 2010 Outback 3.6R, he's used M1 0w40, PP, and now M1 0w30. PP barely stayed in grade. He lives in truly frigid Park Rapids, MN.

I also might just use Redline 5w30 all year. It's MRV spec is not great, but MRV is really a binary metric any way. Either the pump cavitates or it doesn't, and RL 5w30 should be fine down to -30*C. It does get colder than that around here on occasion, but I'm confident I can plug in the block heater in those situations.

Could I use Redline 0w30 in the summer? Probably. We'll see how it comes back in this coming UOA. GC starts out with a higher HTHS, but shears a bit. If the RL is as shear stable as the 5w30, used RL 0w30 might be just as thick as used GC. This spring we had a couple of 80*F days while I still had the 0w30 in the car, it's not nearly as smooth as the 5w30. I know that's subjective, but none of the other oils I've used provided the smoothness throughout the OCI that RL 5w30 has, it's as good at 4kmi as brand new RT6.

Lots of mostly OT there, sorry to the OP.
gpshumway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 05:33 PM   #20
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway
GC is not as good. VI of only ~165 IIRC. The new SN version of M1 0w40 is slightly thicker at operating temp, but at very cold temps it's just as thin as GC owing to its 185 VI. Redline 0w30 of course beats them both for extreme cold, but is not theoretically as good for high temps, especially compared to M1.
Meh. I realize that you may see extreme cold winter temps, but some people have put WAY too much emphasis on VI (and other product data sheet specs) instead of oil data lately or performance. Did you know that the original "Green GC" used no viscosity modifiers? Truly an uber oil.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 05-23-2012 at 09:34 PM.
bluesubie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 09:35 AM   #21
gpshumway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43950
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
07 WRX LTD Wagon
Satin White Pearl

Default

I suspect you're talking about a certain frequent and militant poster on BITOG... I agree to a point, but what are you considering "data". I don't need to tell you that UOAs are primarily for entertainment purposes, especially as it relates to wear data. Most UOAs are decent for telling whether you can keep using the oil, but don't give much info about the quality of the oil other than an idea of shear stability.

VI is one of several important metrics in selecting an oil. The most important to me by far though is the performance certifications (ACEA A3, manufacturer specs).

Speaking of entertainment value, I just got my latest UOA back last night. I'll post it in my UOA thread. I asked for a KV40, the results are interesting.

Edit: UOA is up in my thread HERE.

Last edited by gpshumway; 05-24-2012 at 09:42 AM.
gpshumway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 06:14 PM   #22
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway
I suspect you're talking about a certain frequent and militant poster on BITOG... I agree to a point, but what are you considering "data".
Yes.. VI is useful to help determine what oil to run in some applications, but it's not the be all and end all. Arguing that Amsoil 0W-20 is a poor choice in TX because it is too thick is really pushing it, IMO. Same goes for pretty much saying that Havoline 0W-20 is a worse choice than Subaru 0W-20 for a new Impreza because Havoline is a heavier oil. This is 0W-20!

No, I don't consider a $30 uoa useful for wear data. UOA's by Dyson are a bit better, especially when the customers share a bit of info. And his old posts on bitog were helpful as well. Or show me some papers or studies. But I'll take anything over making assumptions based on what's in a pds. Sorry to vent here. But we always have to cover multiple topics in every oil thread. My next oci will be on an antiquated 10W-30 with a low VI. I'd pick a high HTHS oil like Red Line over high VI in a turbo any day.

-Dennis
bluesubie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 08:24 AM   #23
jay25RS
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4273
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:
2011 GR-STI
& 2015 Legacy Ltd.

Default

My copper also is high and was beginning to taper but this last sample was high again...

-2011 STI Cobb Stg 2 pro tuned with intake and inlet, Moroso catch cans.
-11,153 miles on car
-3,630 miles on Shell Rotella T6 5w/40
-0 make up oil added
-Fumoto valve

Note: This past oil change I put in some ENEOS 5w-30 which my friend has been running and getting good results with (with UOA's to back it up) so I hope to have another sample soon... Some speculate that the Fumoto valve can be leaching copper into the oil, others say it can be an additive in the oil itself, and of course there is the copper oil cooler or something that may be actually wrong.

jay25RS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2012, 03:16 PM   #24
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Copy and paste.

IMO, the copper isn't from the fumoto. I've used the same fumoto valve since 2003 and have never had high copper. I do notice that copper varies whenever I switch oil brands a lot and I agree that this probably copper leaching from the oil cooler. This is even more noticeable on new engines.

Copper and Your Diesel Engine Oils
Quote:
As distinguished from mechanical wear, cooler core leaching is a chemical process. Although well documented in the literature, it has been only recently that the factors leading to the phenomenon have been understood. It seems to boil down to three things: zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP), heat and new engines. The principle elemental component of ZDDP is sulfur. For new engines with less than 1,500 hours of service life, the cooler core becomes an active reaction site for the ZDDP, resulting in copper sulfides forming on the copper cooler tubes. These sulfides later slough off into the oil, contributing to a rising copper concentration than can reach well over 300 ppm. As alarming as this sounds, it has been reported that copper sulfide, even in these high concentrations, is generally benign and as such may not be associated with (cause or effect) cooler failure, accelerated wear or lubricant oxidation. While I personally have not seen the data that support these claims, I also have no basis to refute them.
If you're trying to pinpoint something that appears to be a problem, you need to stick with the same oil/grade for 2-3 oci's IMO. My uoa "wear" numbers didn't even start to drop until around 18k miles. The last time that I saw true high copper (triple digits) in a turbo Subaru was a few uoa's around the time of the '08/'09 turbo stop sale. If you're really worried, consult a professional tribologist that uses an ISO certified lab.

Dyson Analysis ...
Blackstone for entertainment purposes. Dyson to help you figure out if you have a problem.

Do those magnesium and calcium numbers look right? I know that any HDEO will use a lot of magnesium but I don't recall if that amount looks right.

edit: I think your magnesium and calcium numbers may be backwards. Here's a UOA with calcium at 1204 and magnesium at 933. I would contact Blackstone.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 08-31-2012 at 06:30 PM.
bluesubie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2012 STI oil smell and studder cjd19 Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 21 05-23-2012 05:21 PM
2012 STi 91 Octane Data Log Analysis kevosti AccessPort 0 02-04-2012 07:21 PM
Used Oil Analysis - Castrol Syntec 10W40 - Subaru WRX STi, 2nd sample alanlcit Service & Maintenance 8 10-23-2007 09:54 AM
Used Oil Analysis - Castrol Syntec 10W40 - Subaru WRX STi alanlcit Service & Maintenance 19 07-24-2007 03:09 AM
'04 STi (stock) engine oil analysis report at 7,323 miles. lstepnio Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 21 03-14-2004 11:59 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.