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Old 05-22-2013, 09:33 AM   #3626
79letour
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I thought you sold yours out of fear it would break down. Didn't ever hear about your experience with it actually leaving you stranded. No wonder you can't help but rag on the tdi's. I would, too.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:51 AM   #3627
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Originally Posted by 79letour View Post
I thought you sold yours out of fear it would break down. Didn't ever hear about your experience with it actually leaving you stranded. No wonder you can't help but rag on the tdi's. I would, too.
It was a combination of failures that had already occurred, plus fear of future failures that VWoA wouldn't cover because they were unwilling to extend my warranty. My TDI had 30k miles on it when I sold it, so it was coming to the end of its warranty.

I wanted VWoA to extend my warranty because I feared that the fuel leak caused damage to the rubber/plastic/painted parts the fuel came into contact with. The owners manual warns that diesel fuel must be cleaned from rubber/plastic/painted parts immediately with warm soapy water to prevent future deterioration of the parts. Because my TDI broke down on a national holiday, the car sat soaking in its fuel for 30+ hours before the dealership in Mechanicsburg could look at it. So I asked VWoA to give me a 5-year extended warranty on all plastic and rubber parts in the engine compartment and on the underside of the car, as well as on the rear hatch, because that's where the fuel flowed as I was driving down the highway.

VWoA refused this request, claiming that they would handle such problems "on a case-by-case basis." I considered that to be a BS response to my situation, so I sold the TDI and bought the Impreza.

It's really a pity. I loved that TDI, and strongly feel that if it had the reliability of a Toyota/Honda/Mazda/Subaru, it would easily be the best car on the road for under $30k. But it doesn't have that reliability, so it's simply not worth the grief.

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Old 05-22-2013, 07:22 PM   #3628
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I am concerned about the high pressure fuel pump failures. I came very close to trading in the Impreza, very close.
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Old 05-22-2013, 07:57 PM   #3629
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I am concerned about the high pressure fuel pump failures. I came very close to trading in the Impreza, very close.
Yeah, the HPFP is a legitimate TDI concern. So is intercooler icing when the outdoor temp is right around 32*F. And the exhaust flap failures. And Diesel Particulate Filter clogging/cracking. And problems with the various O2 sensors. And an assortment of other emissions issues. And water pump failures. And....
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:20 PM   #3630
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I did the math. If I drove the car for 60k miles, I would only be saving ~$4,400.00 with the MPG and price per gallon taken into consideration. Not worth it for the reliability issues the car has. Impreza = reliable ratings, Jetta TDI = not so much.
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Old 05-22-2013, 09:32 PM   #3631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Eye View Post
I did the math. If I drove the car for 60k miles, I would only be saving ~$4,400.00 with the MPG and price per gallon taken into consideration. Not worth it for the reliability issues the car has. Impreza = reliable ratings, Jetta TDI = not so much.
Good choice. Even so, I'd like to know what assumptions you used when you came up with your $4.4k saved in only 60k miles. That sounds aggressive.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:15 AM   #3632
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Originally Posted by ST Eye View Post
I did the math. If I drove the car for 60k miles, I would only be saving ~$4,400.00 with the MPG and price per gallon taken into consideration. Not worth it for the reliability issues the car has. Impreza = reliable ratings, Jetta TDI = not so much.
OK, I did the math too. Just looking at the fuel portion of the equation, here's what I came up with.

Assumptions (based on current fuel prices at my fueling station near Rochester, NY):
  • Regular unleaded gas: $3.63/gallon
  • Diesel fuel: $4.06/gallon
  • Impreza's average fuel economy: 30 MPG
  • TDI's average fuel economy: 40 MPG
  • Gas consumed by Impreza over 60k miles: 2000 gallons
  • Fuel consumed by TDI over 60k miles: 1500 gallons
  • Total money spent to buy Impreza's gas: $7260
  • Total money spent to buy TDI's fuel: $6090
  • TOTAL FUEL SAVINGS FROM TDI: $1170

So you see, I'm not sure how you came up with your $4.4k of fuel savings with the TDI. The fuel economy numbers you see above are very close to the number I see with my Impreza (when averaging across winter and summer driving), and are what I saw with my TDI (also averaged over an entire year to account for summer and winter fuel blends).

But you can't only look at fuel costs when figuring these things out. For example:
  • A TDI costs approximately $5k more to purchase than an Impreza
  • It costs approximately $700/year more to insure a TDI than an Impreza (at least that's true here in the Rochester, NY area; your situation might be different)
  • At 60k miles, you've been driving the car for 24k miles beyond its bumper-to-bumper warranty. The TDI is more likely to fail during this time than the Impreza, and TDIs (and VWs in general) are VERY expensive to repair outside of warranty. See my post #3681 above. I'm not making this stuff up.
  • I don't know what transmission you have in your car. If you prefer to drive a car with an automatic tranny, then the TDI would have the DSG transmission. I can tell you that the 40k mile service, which includes the DSG service, is prohibitively expensive (approximately $800, if memory serves me correctly; I drive cars with sticks and clutches, but this seems to be the cost I remember reading frequently on the TDI forums). So even when the TDI doesn't break outside of warranty, it's still expensive just to maintain it properly.

So you see, when you take everything into account and not just fuel, the TDI is actually the more expensive car to drive and own. Any TDI owner who thinks he's being more economical than he would have been had he purchased a Subaru/Honda/Toyota/Mazda is just fooling himself. The only honest justification for buying a VW over a Subaru/Honda/Toyota/Mazda is because the VW is a beautiful car to drive (when it's not in the shop). The VW won't be more reliable, and it won't be cheaper to own, regardless of the impressive AVG MPG numbers shown on the TDI's dashboard.

Last edited by sgoldste01; 05-23-2013 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:43 AM   #3633
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Unleaded here is 4.299, diesel 4.059. Diesel went up a nickel when gas went up 60 cents
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:53 AM   #3634
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Unleaded here is 4.299, diesel 4.059. Diesel went up a nickel when gas went up 60 cents
Feel free to put your own numbers into my calculation above and see how everything turns out. I think you'll find that it's still not worth owning a TDI just because of the fuel economy.

By the way, it's very common for the delta between gas and diesel prices to be the highest during the cold months, as that's when the supply for diesel fuel is the most limited because the fuel stock is also used to provide heating oil.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:07 AM   #3635
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
OK, I did the math too. Just looking at the fuel portion of the equation, here's what I came up with.

Assumptions (based on current fuel prices at my fueling station near Rochester, NY):
  • Regular unleaded gas: $3.63/gallon
  • Diesel fuel: $4.06/gallon
  • Impreza's average fuel economy: 30 MPG
  • TDI's average fuel economy: 40 MPG
  • Gas consumed by Impreza over 60k miles: 2000 gallons
  • Fuel consumed by TDI over 60k miles: 1500 gallons
  • Total money spent to buy Impreza's gas: $7260
  • Total money spent to buy TDI's fuel: $6090
  • TOTAL FUEL SAVINGS FROM TDI: $1170

So you see, I'm not sure how you came up with your $4.4k of fuel savings with the TDI. The fuel economy numbers you see above are very close to the number I see with my Impreza (when averaging across winter and summer driving), and are what I saw with my TDI (also averaged over an entire year to account for summer and winter fuel blends).

But you can't only look at fuel costs when figuring these things out. For example:
  • A TDI costs approximately $5k more to purchase than an Impreza
  • It costs approximately $700/year more to insure a TDI than an Impreza (at least that's true here in the Rochester, NY area; your situation might be different)
  • At 60k miles, you've been driving the car for 24k miles beyond its bumper-to-bumper warranty. The TDI is more likely to fail during this time than the Impreza, and TDIs (and VWs in general) are VERY expensive to repair outside of warranty. See my post #3681 above. I'm not making this stuff up.
  • I don't know what transmission you have in your car. If you prefer to drive a car with an automatic tranny, then the TDI would have the DSG transmission. I can tell you that the 40k mile service, which includes the DSG service, is prohibitively expensive (approximately $800, if memory serves me correctly; I drive cars with sticks and clutches, but this seems to be the cost I remember reading frequently on the TDI forums). So even when the TDI doesn't break outside of warranty, it's still expensive just to maintain it properly.

So you see, when you take everything into account and not just fuel, the TDI is actually the more expensive car to drive and own. Any TDI owner who thinks he's being more economical than he would have been had he purchased a Subaru/Honda/Toyota/Mazda is just fooling himself. The only honest justification for buying a VW over a Subaru/Honda/Toyota/Mazda is because the VW is a beautiful car to drive (when it's not in the shop). The VW won't be more reliable, and it won't be cheaper to own, regardless of the impressive AVG MPG numbers shown on the TDI's dashboard.
I was basing my calculations on the gas prices in my area and the MPGs I get on average with my car (~27 mpg). At any rate, I was only focusing on the fuel savings and not any other factors. When adding in the price I would have to pay for upgrading the car, it didn't make financial sense.
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:26 AM   #3636
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One thing this thread illustrates- how much TDI's suck!

Any word on your car, JRobb??
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:12 PM   #3637
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One thing this thread illustrates- how much TDI's suck!

Any word on your car, JRobb??
Still a few hundred miles away from bringing it back to the dealer for the first of 4 checks during this extended consumption test ordered by SOA.

I'm sure nothing is going to change from the first oil consumption test they did in which the oil level was down exactly a qaurt in 1100 miles, but SOA is making me jump through their hoops.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:20 PM   #3638
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What exactly are they trying to prove on this extended consumption test? Have you been in contact with someone from Customer/Dealer services at SOA? I would be in contact with them if you haven't already.
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:47 PM   #3639
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What exactly are they trying to prove on this extended consumption test? Have you been in contact with someone from Customer/Dealer services at SOA? I would be in contact with them if you haven't already.
No, I haven't been in direct contact with anyone from SOA. According to the dealer, SOA ordered an additional, extended oil consumption test when the dealership contacted them to get the green light to rip into the engine. I was told by the tech that this is something brand new that SOA is doing to test for oil consumption. Its kind of a pain, but I'm certain it'll get fixed eventually.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:10 PM   #3640
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When I was having problems with my first 2012 Impreza, I was dealing with the dealer (who was dealing with SOA) and I was interacting with SOA directly. I found it quite useful to have someone from within SOA that I could talk to about my situation. In my dealings it really was helpful for me to contact customer/dealer services and now I am a happy customer. Their email address is: CustDlrServices@subaru.com Just passing on info!
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Old 05-23-2013, 06:56 PM   #3641
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Originally Posted by ST Eye View Post
I did the math. If I drove the car for 60k miles, I would only be saving ~$4,400.00 with the MPG and price per gallon taken into consideration. Not worth it for the reliability issues the car has. Impreza = reliable ratings, Jetta TDI = not so much.

Factor in the DSG transmission service every 40k and you're saving even less. That's why I ditched mine for the Impreza and not once have I regretted it!
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:02 PM   #3642
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Factor in the DSG transmission service every 40k and you're saving even less. That's why I ditched mine for the Impreza and not once have I regretted it!
Yup, that's one of the points I mentioned in post #3684 above.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:58 PM   #3643
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The TDI was my first and last VW. And the TDI and GTI are not as different animals as you claim. Yes, of course, the engines are very different. But almost everything else is nearly the same. Almost everything you loved about your GTI are the same things I loved about my TDI. This is why, when you were new here and were complaining about your Impreza's MPGs, my claim was that the MPGs weren't what you were really complaining about. The things you miss about your GTI are the same things I miss about my TDI.

It's nice that your VW dealership and VWoA stood behind you when your GTI had a major failure. I wasn't so lucky. My TDI had a significant failure. I didn't even ask for a replacement car; all I wanted from them was an extended warranty just in case my car's failure resulted in future problems. There was a good chance that there wouldn't be any such future problems, and that I'd never have to make a future claim against the extended warranty I asked for. Regardless, VWoA denied my request, and that's when I swore off VWs (and thus all VW brands, like Audi).

You say that VWs are similarly reliable to Subarus. The data suggests otherwise:



Yes, every car model/brand has some issues. No machine is perfect 100% of the time. I get it. But as you can see, your chances of having a problem with a Honda/Toyota/Mazda/Subaru is significantly lower than with a VW. Your personal experience with VW is a small sample size, so it's not representative of what most people experience. Or maybe it is--your GTI did need a clutch/engine replacement, regardless of how well VWoA handled the situation.

For most of us, the cars we drive are daily drivers. As such, our cars' primary mission in life is to get us from here to there without drama. My TDI and your GTI were both beautiful cars to drive. But relative to Honda/Toyota/Mazda/Subaru, our chances of having drama in our VWs was significantly higher. As I've said to you in the past, believe me when I say that I more than anybody else on this forum understands what you miss about your GTI. But regardless of how nice of a car a daily driver is (be it a VW or an Audi or a Porsche or a BMW or a Mercedes or an Austin or a Jaguar or whatever), if that daily driver doesn't get you from here to there successfully and without drama, then it has failed you.

My TDI spent 3% of the time I owned it at the dealership. I lost all faith in the car, the dealership, and VWoA. Every time I see a TDI driving down the road and I start thinking about much nicer my TDI was than my Impreza, I remember how refreshing it is to know that when I turn the key my Impreza will start, run, and get me where I need to go. And that's priceless.
SG- I respect all your posts and you. I totally understand how you feel and I would feel the same way. And if I had the problems with my impreza like some here with oil consumption, with no results from SBOA, I would do exactly what you did with your TDI. Sell the car and move on to resolve the issue.

I agree with reliability, so far as my impreza has been fully reliable and as I drive it more and more, I am liking it more and more. I especially like the CVT for commuting and the simplicity of the car. I am not one for gadgets and crap - But as you stated the refinement of the VW GTI is missed. Things like the steering wheel the seats and overall ergonomics, oh man the seats are awesome. I cant speak for the TDI but the torque of the GTI is what I miss most! HP means nothing, torque is everything and that is the main thing that the impreza is missing. I have learned to deal and work around it, but it can be quite annoying in certain situations. But I feel the need to say, My GTI was super reliable, fun and efficient. Sorry your TDI was not. I really do miss it.. seriously everyday!!! The car was not just transportation, you wanted to take little trips everywhere, made any trip fun, In my experience not many cars can do this, the impreza unfortunately does not posses this IMO (can't explain)

So.. to all with oil consumption problems, best advice is open a file with Subaru and stay dilligent. And if all fails just move on... you will be so much happier on a daily basis, no need to live everyday with stress and a fight. I have seriously not been happy with the MPG of the impreza, has improved some recently, still far from my expectations, but when nearing the end of the warranty, I will make a decision and move on. I know that is not an easy financial situation for some but I think you will be happier with less stess... JMO. Good Luck. To each its own... and VW has been good to me ove the years... and So Far so has Subaru... Hope it continues.....
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:04 AM   #3644
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Darn it, just had our 12 months service and yet again it's way over the full mark this Time 20mm.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:14 AM   #3645
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Darn it, just had our 12 months service and yet again it's way over the full mark this Time 20mm.
Time to start doing your own oil changes.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:49 AM   #3646
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Started my oil consumption test 2 weeks ago. Apologies but it's in Canadian:

In the first 560 km consumed 0.6 Liters.
In the next 1000 km consumed 0.3 Liters. (odd, it's all highway driving)
And i'm due back tomorrow.

In Canada my really average dealer told me consuming 1 Liter in 1200 Km is acceptable. I got a little confused because in the manual and online Subaru states that 1 Liter in 2000 Km is acceptable. As soon as I mention that the service guy corrects himself, of course. :skeptical:

The guy behind the service desk tried to convince me that I should only be checking my oil when it is hot. As in, immediately after shutting the vehicle off. The manual says "wait a few minutes after shutting off the vehicle to let the oil drain back into the oil pan". But I was taught to check my oil stone cold, always. And sure enough the dealer over-filled my car with oil by about a 1/4 inch each time they've topped off the oil so far. Not fun when other people's hands are on my car. :/
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:54 AM   #3647
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Originally Posted by Rpresa View Post
Started my oil consumption test 2 weeks ago. Apologies but it's in Canadian:

In the first 560 km consumed 0.6 Liters.
In the next 1000 km consumed 0.3 Liters. (odd, it's all highway driving)
And i'm due back tomorrow.

In Canada my really average dealer told me consuming 1 Liter in 1200 Km is acceptable. I got a little confused because in the manual and online Subaru states that 1 Liter in 2000 Km is acceptable. As soon as I mention that the service guy corrects himself, of course. :skeptical:

The guy behind the service desk tried to convince me that I should only be checking my oil when it is hot. As in, immediately after shutting the vehicle off. The manual says "wait a few minutes after shutting off the vehicle to let the oil drain back into the oil pan". But I was taught to check my oil stone cold, always. And sure enough the dealer over-filled my car with oil by about a 1/4 inch each time they've topped off the oil so far. Not fun when other people's hands are on my car. :/
"full" seems to be about 1/4" over the top of the full mark, at least from every oil change i have done and adding exactly 5.3qts. i wish they would have drilled the holes in the dipstick in the proper positions
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:06 AM   #3648
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SG- I respect all your posts and you. I totally understand how you feel and I would feel the same way. And if I had the problems with my impreza like some here with oil consumption, with no results from SBOA, I would do exactly what you did with your TDI. Sell the car and move on to resolve the issue.

I agree with reliability, so far as my impreza has been fully reliable and as I drive it more and more, I am liking it more and more. I especially like the CVT for commuting and the simplicity of the car. I am not one for gadgets and crap - But as you stated the refinement of the VW GTI is missed. Things like the steering wheel the seats and overall ergonomics, oh man the seats are awesome. I cant speak for the TDI but the torque of the GTI is what I miss most! HP means nothing, torque is everything and that is the main thing that the impreza is missing. I have learned to deal and work around it, but it can be quite annoying in certain situations. But I feel the need to say, My GTI was super reliable, fun and efficient. Sorry your TDI was not. I really do miss it.. seriously everyday!!! The car was not just transportation, you wanted to take little trips everywhere, made any trip fun, In my experience not many cars can do this, the impreza unfortunately does not posses this IMO (can't explain)

So.. to all with oil consumption problems, best advice is open a file with Subaru and stay dilligent. And if all fails just move on... you will be so much happier on a daily basis, no need to live everyday with stress and a fight. I have seriously not been happy with the MPG of the impreza, has improved some recently, still far from my expectations, but when nearing the end of the warranty, I will make a decision and move on. I know that is not an easy financial situation for some but I think you will be happier with less stess... JMO. Good Luck. To each its own... and VW has been good to me ove the years... and So Far so has Subaru... Hope it continues.....
I'm in a similar place although I don't think I'd get rid of the car after warranty. I'm guessing by then my wife's car will be old (high miles) and maybe I can pass this one onto her. I think she'd appreciate the AWD.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:39 PM   #3649
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Totally understand your train of thought and logic, and I agree. I most def will be keeping this car at least til warranty, thankfully paid off. After that not sure... I do love the AWD of the impreza, and although the CVT takes some getting used to, I would not want this car with a m/t, JMO. For the pwr and torque, really just an annoyance for my needs.

So far Subaru gets my nod for reliability. It's funny in bad weather, this car feels like a little truck almost.... Love this car in the rain. I am just so happy mine does does not have an oil consumption problem. I can only imagine how much that must suck!... GodSpeed to any with problems...... The devil is not to disrespect.. Just has become my thing due to some j/a$$es they know who they are.... sorry. Good Luck!
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:49 PM   #3650
nubsub
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Originally Posted by vwgti123 View Post

So far Subaru gets my nod for reliability. It's funny in bad weather, this car feels like a little truck almost.... Love this car in the rain. I am just so happy mine does does not have an oil consumption problem.
i agree. if i had an oil consumption problem, that would totally change my view of my car (while i'm mildly disappointed in my mileage, that is more than offset by all the other superlatives of this car). hopefully the few that have problems can get them addressed by SOA.
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