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Old 09-26-2013, 02:51 AM   #4126
79letour
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Well thats great news for everyone. but honestly Subaru are looking pretty lame right now. They argued with everything they had that it was NORMAL for my car to burn 2 or more quarts per interval.
GRANT at SOA told me that he would buy a brand new car that burns two quarts in 5000 miles.
I basically got rid of a car that the bastards at soa refused to fix or acknowledge, and while I still own a subaru, it wont be happening again. The fact that they couldnt do anything since 2011 until now just pisses me off. I hung on for 19 months to an oil burning impreza, Jrobb probably has half as many miles on his rental car as his 2012 impreza.
So while this tsb is a step in the right direction, I'm sure its bound to piss off people who wanted their car fixed but were denied so they dumped it.But even if you get through all the hoops to jump through with your new car, Apparently the parts are made of unobtainium and the wait for the fix is several months.
Rant almost over... Im not normally up this late.
Btw- are they replacing blocks still, or are they cheezing out and replacing rings? I dont think anyone would just throw new rings in without honing and all.
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:54 AM   #4127
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No block replacement unless walls scored too much. They have standard ring. 0.25 and 0.50 oversized rings available
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:55 AM   #4128
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Dont worry about being allowed to post the tsb. By law they have to be available to the public anyhow.
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Old 09-26-2013, 02:57 AM   #4129
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Man, scoobie noobie comes into oil.disaster megathread with a bombshell.
They shoulda named it tsb-79
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:01 AM   #4130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chubs73 View Post
No block replacement unless walls scored too much. They have standard ring. 0.25 and 0.50 oversized rings available
Well I'd rather have not waited over 18 months for just new rings anyhow. I'd want a new longblock.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:43 AM   #4131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chubs73 View Post
Not sure if that was ok to do ornot, but considering the number of people with issue thought it would be ok. This is not the full 15 pages of bulletin. Butnthe highlihhts. The rest is parts list etc
Chubs, thanks for taking the time and interest to post this info. Even though I don't own an oil-consuming car, it pleases me to see that Subaru is doing something.

I understand that the solution has been a long time coming. At first, Subaru was denying the problem. Then they started replacing short blocks. Now they seem to have identified a true root cause and solution. Should this solution have taken this long to identify and implement? I don't know. I'm guessing that pinpointing the cause and solution might be more complex than most of us realize. Things aren't always as simple as they seem.

Regardless, Subaru is admitting that the problem exists, is doing something to help existing customers with the problem, and has almost certainly addressed the problem at the factory to avoid future problems. This is more than a certain other auto manufacturer who shall remain nameless does when there is a significant pattern failure in the field with their cars.
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:09 AM   #4132
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Real question, if you don't have the new rings, will this develop over time?
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:14 AM   #4133
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Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post
Real question, if you don't have the new rings, will this develop over time?
I suspect not. The TSB talks about consistent oil consumption rates, that don't change over time.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:01 AM   #4134
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If an engine has 25k, then quite obviously the cross hatch is gone from the cylinder walls. Are they really not going to bother honing these?
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:08 AM   #4135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 79letour View Post
If an engine has 25k, then quite obviously the cross hatch is gone from the cylinder walls. Are they really not going to bother honing these?
If an engine is well maintained and taken apart after 100K miles, you can still see cross hatching. I have the same question as flyboy, will it develop over time?
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:11 AM   #4136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chubs73 View Post
APPLICABILITY: 2012 - 13MY Impreza Models with 2.0L FB Engines 2013MY XV Crosstrek
NUMBER: 02-145-13 DATE: 09/25/13
SUBJECT: Surface Treatment Change To Oil Control Piston Rings INTRODUCTION
This bulletin provides information regarding a change made to the surface treatment applied to the oil control piston rings for 2.0L FB engines. The change was made as a result of some limited fndings of unanticipated wear of these rings. Oil consumption will be higher than normal and consistent, if this wear occurs, the condition remains until repair. Unusual swings or variations in oil consumption are not consistent with this condition and may be the result of vehicle usage rather than the condition described here. Additional information is supplied in this bulletin to assist in the assessment and determination if vehicle usage is a reason for this varied oil consumption.
It is critical to understand the nature of the concern as reported by the customer and to confrm any actual condition prior to attempting any repairs. Some oil consumption can and should be expected as a by-product of engine operation where no concern exists. Failure to recognize this and correctly diagnose the condition presented can result in unnecessary repairs and in the worst case, an increase in oil consumption. The information supplied in this bulletin is only applicable to a limited number of vehicles within the specifc production range noted below exhibiting the condition(s) previously described.
It is important to read and understand this bulletin completely before starting an oil consumption test or initiating any repairs.
Customer concerns related to possible oil consumption are generally initiated by one of two scenarios.
• The customer reports the low engine oil level (not low engine oil pressure) lamp has illuminated.
• The customer believes the engine oil level on the dipstick has dropped when checking the oil.
Either of these situations by themselves does not directly indicate a concern with the vehicle exists beyond the need to add engine oil as part of normal maintenance. It is important to understand all the factors involved in order to make a sound decision regarding whether or not a repair is required or even if an oil consumption test should be started. When speaking with customers regarding a reported or suspected oil consumption concern, always keep the following information in mind:
Some engine oil will always be consumed as part of normal engine operation. How much and Continued...
Also, where is this info or is the production range at the top..."2012 - 13MY Impreza Models with 2.0L FB Engines 2013MY XV Crosstrek", which would be every single Impreza/Crosstrek.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:29 AM   #4137
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Go to Subaru's tech site. they have all the tsb's listed.
There is also a TSB for 2013 outback and legacy rings.
No BRZ, and apparently the 2011 foresters arent covered.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:43 AM   #4138
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I guess I was correct about FB engines having poor rings.
Guess it wasnt the pcv. If owners of the cars could, and did, figure out what was going on, shame on subaru for selling oil burning fb's and issuing statements about how all modern engines chug oil. And shame on them for coming up with a fix thats akin to a natty-light drinking shadetree chevy good-ole-boy replacing just the rings with no honing to stop the engine from smoking.
I was given all kinds of lame excuses and "reasons" why my car was burning oil,all the while I figured it was the low-tension rings. If its so normal why hasnt my xv lost any oil yet?
The year they went from hand assembled top ends with normal ring tension to robot assembled top ends with low tension wonder-rings was the year that mass oil consumption became an issue.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:12 AM   #4139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 79letour View Post
I guess I was correct about FB engines having poor rings.
Guess it wasnt the pcv. If owners of the cars could, and did, figure out what was going on, shame on subaru for selling oil burning fb's and issuing statements about how all modern engines chug oil. And shame on them for coming up with a fix thats akin to a natty-light drinking shadetree chevy good-ole-boy replacing just the rings with no honing to stop the engine from smoking.
I was given all kinds of lame excuses and "reasons" why my car was burning oil,all the while I figured it was the low-tension rings. If its so normal why hasnt my xv lost any oil yet?
The year they went from hand assembled top ends with normal ring tension to robot assembled top ends with low tension wonder-rings was the year that mass oil consumption became an issue.
Still isn't mass consumption, but the potential is there.

This tsb does give me a reason to have some doubt, because it blames all rings installed presumably up to when this was issued.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:17 AM   #4140
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I did not see in the TSB posted here where it read 1/3 in 1200 miles. That is the official new standard for the test? I know chubs mentioned that initially.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:45 AM   #4141
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A bit off topic, but that TSB states the engine oil capacity is 5.1 qts, I thought it was 5.3?
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:53 AM   #4142
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A bit off topic, but that TSB states the engine oil capacity is 5.1 qts, I thought it was 5.3?
if you look in the 2013 XV user manual they lowered it to 5.1. I assume that puts it right at the full dot rather than over.
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:03 PM   #4143
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Yes I was surprised when I found this.
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Old 09-26-2013, 12:16 PM   #4144
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I will be really interested to see how this plays out over time. If it is a problem with the ring quality, things like that have a tendency to fail later in life even if someone has no problems now. Now I am driving a 2013 FB that burns some oil (enough that I need to check it regularly), but not enough to likely trip this TSB.

I had something similar happen with a 04 Outback. It had the early warning signs of piston slap, but it was hard to detect over normal engine noise. It started up just before 5 years/60K miles and a dealer said it was fine. There were a number of concerning threads online from people that had piston slap much earlier in the car's life. But my Outback was going to be fine, right?!? By 7 years and 75K miles , the piston slap was ridiculous and I was embarrassed to drive the car. Had to pay out of pocket to fix it ($$$$) and then write a letter to Subaru and talk to them on the phone a few times to get refunded on the repair.

These TSBs make me feel like I need to get rid of the car before the warranty is up. I definitely do not want to be paying for a ring job at 90K miles or anything like that. I've been through the "We know there is a problem with some motors, but your car isn't affected by it" situation before. It sucks and then turns into a giant mess years later when you are looking for thousands of dollars to cover a major repair for a known defect. The whole thing is really disappointing since when I was buying the new Subaru, I was thinking "Well at least it won't have another major engine problem!"

Last edited by ocellaris; 09-26-2013 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:05 PM   #4145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLL_OBP View Post
Also, where is this info or is the production range at the top..."2012 - 13MY Impreza Models with 2.0L FB Engines 2013MY XV Crosstrek", which would be every single Impreza/Crosstrek.
Yeah, I'm curious about this also. Is there a VIN range listed somewhere?

It still doesn't make sense. Why do some burn oil and others do not? Aren't all of the FB 20 engines made in the same plant? If so, why would a "limited" number of them have faulty rings? Just guessing, maybe they used different suppliers?

FWIW, mine burned a quart in the first 1,000 miles, but consumption has tapered off to about a half quart every 1,300 miles.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:10 PM   #4146
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Yeah, I'm curious about this also. Is there a VIN range listed somewhere?

It still doesn't make sense. Why do some burn oil and others do not? Aren't all of the FB 20 engines made in the same plant? If so, why would a "limited" number of them have faulty rings? Just guessing, maybe they used different suppliers?

FWIW, mine burned a quart in the first 1,000 miles, but consumption has tapered off to about a half quart every 1,300 miles.
You are dealing with extremely small mechanical tolerances on an assembled engine. Thousandths of an inch can be the different between losing oil and running file. Also it could be an issue with material quality, not all the rings or engine blocks are manufactured at the same time in the same plant with the same stock material for construction. During parts production, the tools needed to make parts get replaced at well. Parts can each be within tolerance but still cause a failure when combined with other parts.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:10 PM   #4147
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[quote=ocellaris;40663403]I will be really interested to see how this plays out over time. If it is a problem with the ring quality, things like that have a tendency to fail later in life even if someone has no problems now. Now I am driving a 2013 FB that burns some oil (enough that I need to check it regularly), but not enough to likely trip this TSB.

I agree and it concerns me as well. My car is consuming some oil at the moment, but not 1/3qt in 1200 yet. Rings wear, so that means the possibility for consumption getting worse is above average at the minimum. A ring job outside of the 60,000 mile warranty is not going to be cheap, as ocellaris mentioned.
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:13 PM   #4148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocellaris View Post
I will be really interested to see how this plays out over time. If it is a problem with the ring quality, things like that have a tendency to fail later in life even if someone has no problems now. Now I am driving a 2013 FB that burns some oil (enough that I need to check it regularly), but not enough to likely trip this TSB.

I had something similar happen with a 04 Outback. It had the early warning signs of piston slap, but it was hard to detect over normal engine noise. It started up just before 5 years/60K miles and a dealer said it was fine. There were a number of concerning threads online from people that had piston slap much earlier in the car's life. But my Outback was going to be fine, right?!? By 7 years and 75K miles , the piston slap was ridiculous and I was embarrassed to drive the car. Had to pay out of pocket to fix it ($$$$) and then write a letter to Subaru and talk to them on the phone a few times to get refunded on the repair.

These TSBs make me feel like I need to get rid of the car before the warranty is up. I definitely do not want to be paying for a ring job at 90K miles or anything like that. I've been through the "We know there is a problem with some motors, but your car isn't affected by it" situation before. It sucks and then turns into a giant mess years later when you are looking for thousands of dollars to cover a major repair for a known defect.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about it
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:37 PM   #4149
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You would think with the cars burning oil, they would want a little extra in the car

In all seriousness, it makes me wonder too if my small oil consumption will get worse over time. What will it be like at 60k? 120k? I wonder if they manufacture the new cars with these larger rings
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Old 09-26-2013, 01:44 PM   #4150
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I wonder if they manufacture the new cars with these larger rings
What makes you think that the ring size has changed? My interpretations is that the finish of the rings has changed, not their dimensions.
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