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Old 05-29-2012, 08:13 PM   #1
taejin
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Default 2011 WRX - Accessport log - 2300RPM feedback knock/fine knock learning.

Hi Everyone.. realized I had posted my last thread in the wrong location, hence not too many responses (sorry mods.. first time and hopefully last heh).

So long story short I've been making use of the accessport to monitor the ecu values. Flashed to a 91ACN stock intake map about 8 or 9 days ago. I have more logs that i can post up if necessary. Currently in AZ (bad conditions :P)

The first pull I did after a couple days (3rd gear WOT) 2-5.7k i was getting some pretty bad fine knock learning (-4.2) from 5500k and up. I haven't gone that high in RPM since then... I will be taking more logs in 3rd gear WOT when I get time to see if it's a consistent thing or if the learned values have decreased (when i have time and a safe area to do some 3rd gear pulls). See log below:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WVPNERUd2s5M1E

What i'm also concerned about is this constant feedback knock at low rpms. I understand the knock sensor can technically go off for things that aren't knock related, but I keep seeing random 1.4 feedback knock corrections (sometimes as high as -2.8) right around 2.3k-3k rpms from 25-30% throttle. Should I worry about this? Would just like a little reassurance on this one.

See log below for a longer log with sporadic feedback knock from 2-3k
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Ud2s5M1E#gid=0

And please.. I'm still learning so go easy on me (that being said, I DO want to learn so if you could explain the technicals of how you reached your opinion it would be appreciated)! Thanks.

If there's any other significant issues on the logs, please enlighten me as well. Off the bat, I can see I'm not quite hitting the acceptable range for target boost and i see constant AF learning 1 (these corrections seem to be within normal ranges though?)
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Last edited by taejin; 05-30-2012 at 10:04 AM. Reason: fixed link
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:29 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by taejin View Post
Hi Everyone.. realized I had posted my last thread in the wrong location, hence not too many responses (sorry mods.. first time and hopefully last heh).

So long story short I've been making use of the accessport to monitor the ecu values. Flashed to a 91ACN stock intake map about 8 or 9 days ago. I have more logs that i can post up if necessary. Currently in AZ (bad conditions :P)

The first pull I did after a couple days (3rd gear WOT) 2-5.7k i was getting some pretty bad fine knock learning (-4.2) from 5500k and up. I haven't gone that high in RPM since then... I will be taking more logs in 3rd gear WOT when I get time to see if it's a consistent thing or if the learned values have decreased (when i have time and a safe area to do some 3rd gear pulls). See log below:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3ZQWmk1VklmY2c

What i'm also concerned about is this constant feedback knock at low rpms. I understand the knock sensor can technically go off for things that aren't knock related, but I keep seeing random 1.4 feedback knock corrections (sometimes as high as -2.8) right around 2.3k-3k rpms from 25-30% throttle. Should I worry about this? Would just like a little reassurance on this one.

See log below for a longer log with sporadic feedback knock from 2-3k
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Ud2s5M1E#gid=0

And please.. I'm still learning so go easy on me (that being said, I DO want to learn so if you could explain the technicals of how you reached your opinion it would be appreciated)! Thanks.

If there's any other significant issues on the logs, please enlighten me as well. Off the bat, I can see I'm not quite hitting the acceptable range for target boost and i see constant AF learning 1 (these corrections seem to be within normal ranges though?)
You'll need to change the permissions on the second log in order for someone to view it. The first log shows show unusual fine knock learning. Sometimes you can see this appear when abruptly lifting off the throttle after a WOT run (although generally it is a single count -1.4). If you have that habit, you can try more gradually releasing the throttle and see if it improves. You are underboosting in the first log, but you want to see if the fine knock learning is an issue before addressing that.

The first log shows A/F Learning 1 values within normal ranges, but it may not have been enough driving since you installed the AccessPORT for these to accurately populate. Try driving another week without reflashing map, resetting the ECU or disconnecting the car's battery. I would also get some additional WOT logs as well.

I can't view the 2nd log, but low load/RPM feedback correction is generally normal, especially with throttle changes.

Bill
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
You'll need to change the permissions on the second log in order for someone to view it. The first log shows show unusual fine knock learning. Sometimes you can see this appear when abruptly lifting off the throttle after a WOT run (although generally it is a single count -1.4). If you have that habit, you can try more gradually releasing the throttle and see if it improves. You are underboosting in the first log, but you want to see if the fine knock learning is an issue before addressing that.

The first log shows A/F Learning 1 values within normal ranges, but it may not have been enough driving since you installed the AccessPORT for these to accurately populate. Try driving another week without reflashing map, resetting the ECU or disconnecting the car's battery. I would also get some additional WOT logs as well.

I can't view the 2nd log, but low load/RPM feedback correction is generally normal, especially with throttle changes.

Bill

Awesome, thanks for the reply Bill.

I'm thinking I did not give my ECU enough time to settle considering it hasn't been 2 weeks since my map flash (this car is mostly a DD so it sees lots of low rpm/low mileage trips ie <3 miles without hitting boost during most of these trips). I will keep monitoring it to see how it behaves as I put more mileage on. Should've probably jumped to this conclusion initially, but it seems like I've had the accessport for a lot longer than i have heh.

On that note, I don't go into WOT very often (maybe on weekends during more "spirited" drives) so it would make sense if my ecu hasn't had the data to analyze/adjust accordingly.

I fixed the link to the 2nd log (long one.. be warned). Like I had mentioned, the feedback knock corr seems to be no higher than -1.4 when it does show up, but cells/row (time) 207-229 is a bit worrisome since I haven't seen values that high before at that low rpm/throttle. It only seems to be a one time thing (havent seen this on any other "normal driving" logs yet) so I don't know if it's significant in that aspect.

Being that you mentioned throttle changes, is it possible rev matching may trigger the knock sensor? I do tend to light rev match occasionally around 2.5k up to 3k ish (depending on the gear obv)... seems to almost go hand in hand with those feedback knock events (or not).

And yes, definitely not worrying about the boost levels until i can confirm my car is running as smoothly as it should.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:20 AM   #4
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I will also post up more WOT logs when I get a chance (hopefully this weekend). Appreciate the help!
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:34 AM   #5
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Awesome, thanks for the reply Bill.

I'm thinking I did not give my ECU enough time to settle considering it hasn't been 2 weeks since my map flash (this car is mostly a DD so it sees lots of low rpm/low mileage trips ie <3 miles without hitting boost during most of these trips). I will keep monitoring it to see how it behaves as I put more mileage on. Should've probably jumped to this conclusion initially, but it seems like I've had the accessport for a lot longer than i have heh.

On that note, I don't go into WOT very often (maybe on weekends during more "spirited" drives) so it would make sense if my ecu hasn't had the data to analyze/adjust accordingly.

I fixed the link to the 2nd log (long one.. be warned). Like I had mentioned, the feedback knock corr seems to be no higher than -1.4 when it does show up, but cells/row (time) 207-229 is a bit worrisome since I haven't seen values that high before at that low rpm/throttle. It only seems to be a one time thing (havent seen this on any other "normal driving" logs yet) so I don't know if it's significant in that aspect.

Being that you mentioned throttle changes, is it possible rev matching may trigger the knock sensor? I do tend to light rev match occasionally around 2.5k up to 3k ish (depending on the gear obv)... seems to almost go hand in hand with those feedback knock events (or not).

And yes, definitely not worrying about the boost levels until i can confirm my car is running as smoothly as it should.
When you see corrections around 1.0 g/rev of load or less, it is generally noise and can be ignored. It is only a problem if you are seeing extreme corrections (beyond double counts of -2.8 consistently). That could mean you have something rattling in the engine bay or that you may have a mechanical issue. Other things to look for are at high load not due to mashing the throttle, such as in the middle of your WOT run. If you see feedback knock correction consistently (-1.4 or worse) there, that is something you want to address. You will occasionally see single count (-1.4) fine knock learning at high load (that learns relatively quickly back to zero) that can be normal due to abruptly lifting off the throttle at the end of a WOT run.

Rev matching could possibly introduce some noise, but really any low load/RPM throttle changes can do this.

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Old 05-31-2012, 01:03 PM   #6
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When you see corrections around 1.0 g/rev of load or less, it is generally noise and can be ignored. It is only a problem if you are seeing extreme corrections (beyond double counts of -2.8 consistently). That could mean you have something rattling in the engine bay or that you may have a mechanical issue. Other things to look for are at high load not due to mashing the throttle, such as in the middle of your WOT run. If you see feedback knock correction consistently (-1.4 or worse) there, that is something you want to address. You will occasionally see single count (-1.4) fine knock learning at high load (that learns relatively quickly back to zero) that can be normal due to abruptly lifting off the throttle at the end of a WOT run.

Rev matching could possibly introduce some noise, but really any low load/RPM throttle changes can do this.

Bill
Sounds good. I'll be keeping an eye out for the things you've mentioned. It also gives me enough of an understanding as far as what's considered more significant vs likely noise. I'll be back here when I get a chance for a few good logs. Thanks again Bill.
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:13 PM   #7
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Sigh.. these links keep changing around on me.. almost like someone else has access to my google docs? First WOT log is here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3ZQWmk1VklmY2c
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:38 PM   #8
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Small update, 2 new logs today (hot as $@%$@ outside).

1) normal driving, more feedback knock at low rpms (right around 2300-2400 again).

These events are definitely intermittent and im not overly worried since it's at low throttle/rpms (esp based off what you had told me previously). I had 3 other quick logs of normal driving without any events showing up. Definitely has not been consistent so I'm pretty much ruling that out as false knock (though I'll continue to monitor it as i can).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...GlJeDBVQzlXZ3c

2) A short WOT run 3rd gear. This one is definintely concerning, DAM dropped from 1 down to .69 after the knock adjustments (first time observing this in my logs). No ramp down.. mult back to back knock events as the rpms went up (used gas from a different station this time). I forgot to ease off the throttle, but saw exactly what you described - feedback knock -1.4 after lifting.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TZWS2hjYl94WWc

I'll continue to monitor the af learning 1 since it seems to be consistently getting lower (values closer to 1.5 vs 3.0 now). Based off my limited knowledge though, it almost seems like the low knock events and high knock events may almost be correlated... (only 1 thing comes to mind right now.. bad fuel/air temps/combination of both..?)

At this point I'll definitely need to get a couple more WOT runs to see how consistent the knock is... will post them this weekend.

If you could let me know if these guesses have no basis (so I can learn the correct troubleshooting method), i would appreciate it as well. It's pretty much why I'm writing a lot... to see if I'm on the right track here; i don't want to keep bringing up fuel and az temps if it's too early to make the assumption.

Last edited by taejin; 05-31-2012 at 06:44 PM. Reason: info change; consolidating
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:06 AM   #9
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Small update, 2 new logs today (hot as $@%$@ outside).

1) normal driving, more feedback knock at low rpms (right around 2300-2400 again).

These events are definitely intermittent and im not overly worried since it's at low throttle/rpms (esp based off what you had told me previously). I had 3 other quick logs of normal driving without any events showing up. Definitely has not been consistent so I'm pretty much ruling that out as false knock (though I'll continue to monitor it as i can).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...GlJeDBVQzlXZ3c

2) A short WOT run 3rd gear. This one is definintely concerning, DAM dropped from 1 down to .69 after the knock adjustments (first time observing this in my logs). No ramp down.. mult back to back knock events as the rpms went up (used gas from a different station this time). I forgot to ease off the throttle, but saw exactly what you described - feedback knock -1.4 after lifting.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TZWS2hjYl94WWc

I'll continue to monitor the af learning 1 since it seems to be consistently getting lower (values closer to 1.5 vs 3.0 now). Based off my limited knowledge though, it almost seems like the low knock events and high knock events may almost be correlated... (only 1 thing comes to mind right now.. bad fuel/air temps/combination of both..?)

At this point I'll definitely need to get a couple more WOT runs to see how consistent the knock is... will post them this weekend.

If you could let me know if these guesses have no basis (so I can learn the correct troubleshooting method), i would appreciate it as well. It's pretty much why I'm writing a lot... to see if I'm on the right track here; i don't want to keep bringing up fuel and az temps if it's too early to make the assumption.
The last log has concerning knock events. At this point, I would not do anymore WOT runs until you can get this figured out. I would reflash the low wastegate (LWG) version of the ACN91 map at this point (available in maps section at cobbtuning.com). Although you are already underboosting, we do not have a more conservative map than ACN91, so the LWG map will reduce boost further as a means of a more conservative approach. The knock you are seeing is likely due to worse than average (for your area) gas quality. First thing to do is to check with enthusiants in your local forum to see which gas brand works best in your area. Do you have any mods at all?

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Old 06-08-2012, 08:15 PM   #10
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The last log has concerning knock events. At this point, I would not do anymore WOT runs until you can get this figured out. I would reflash the low wastegate (LWG) version of the ACN91 map at this point (available in maps section at cobbtuning.com). Although you are already underboosting, we do not have a more conservative map than ACN91, so the LWG map will reduce boost further as a means of a more conservative approach. The knock you are seeing is likely due to worse than average (for your area) gas quality. First thing to do is to check with enthusiants in your local forum to see which gas brand works best in your area. Do you have any mods at all?

Bill
Alrighty, yeah I've only been driving for my commute thus far so haven't had a chance to get too many more logs. I will tune to the LWG map today and monitor the variables again.

Definitely no mods at this point, I've tried 3 different gas stations now with no significant improvement. I will do some research on some better fuel in my area.

Would this mean that my car was potentially having similar/if not worse knock events on the stock tune I had for roughly 5k miles?
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:00 PM   #11
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Just flashed to the 91ACN LWG map (stock intake). AF learning 1 is already vastly different than what I saw from the get go on the 91ACN normal wastegate map. I'm actually seeing much smaller values (closer to 0) on average over just a couple miles. In addition, there are not nearly as many knock events over the 3 consecutive logs I took (i saw them much more frequently on logs with the previous map).

I just took it out for some normal driving and got 3 logs (no/barely got into boost). I'm still seeing the same knock around that 2400RPM when I actually go WOT (fine knock learn -1.4, -1.4, -1.05, -2.45,-2.45,-2.45 -2.1, -2.1, 0). It made similar corrections around the same rpm later at 25% throttle...seems to keep adjusting right around 2.4-2.5k rpm. Would this fine knock already be learned on this new flash or did it carry over from before? Only 2 of those fine knock learning events over the 2-3 miles i drove on this new flash.

Probably a "little" (sarcasm) too soon to take these into too much consideration right now.

I'll have to put some more mileage on this new flash to let everything settle and I'll be back with more logs (and a couple WOT logs with the lwg map).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...JVGxZRkE#gid=0
Fine knock learn @ row 618

Last edited by taejin; 06-08-2012 at 09:01 PM. Reason: spelling.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:19 AM   #12
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Just flashed to the 91ACN LWG map (stock intake). AF learning 1 is already vastly different than what I saw from the get go on the 91ACN normal wastegate map. I'm actually seeing much smaller values (closer to 0) on average over just a couple miles. In addition, there are not nearly as many knock events over the 3 consecutive logs I took (i saw them much more frequently on logs with the previous map).

I just took it out for some normal driving and got 3 logs (no/barely got into boost). I'm still seeing the same knock around that 2400RPM when I actually go WOT (fine knock learn -1.4, -1.4, -1.05, -2.45,-2.45,-2.45 -2.1, -2.1, 0). It made similar corrections around the same rpm later at 25% throttle...seems to keep adjusting right around 2.4-2.5k rpm. Would this fine knock already be learned on this new flash or did it carry over from before? Only 2 of those fine knock learning events over the 2-3 miles i drove on this new flash.

Probably a "little" (sarcasm) too soon to take these into too much consideration right now.

I'll have to put some more mileage on this new flash to let everything settle and I'll be back with more logs (and a couple WOT logs with the lwg map).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...JVGxZRkE#gid=0
Fine knock learn @ row 618
The A/F Learning is cleared when you reflash a map which is why you are seeing different values now. Give it about a week of normal driving for it populate accurately. If they are within +/- 5% after that time, then you likely do not have any kind of fueling issue. If any are outside of +/- 8% there might be an issue.

Hard to tell from that log - you do have a double count of feedback knock correction but it was a very short run. Large throttle changes can sometimes cause this type of noise, which you can rule out with a longer 3rd gear run. But, at this point, I would wait and see what the A/F Learning looks like after a week before doing anymore WOT runs.

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Old 06-10-2012, 04:08 PM   #13
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The A/F Learning is cleared when you reflash a map which is why you are seeing different values now. Give it about a week of normal driving for it populate accurately. If they are within +/- 5% after that time, then you likely do not have any kind of fueling issue. If any are outside of +/- 8% there might be an issue.

Hard to tell from that log - you do have a double count of feedback knock correction but it was a very short run. Large throttle changes can sometimes cause this type of noise, which you can rule out with a longer 3rd gear run. But, at this point, I would wait and see what the A/F Learning looks like after a week before doing anymore WOT runs.

Bill
Thanks, i'll report back here in a week or so.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:20 PM   #14
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2 new logs.. i seem to be getting feedback knock at low rpms again.. when lifting off the throttle from what I can see.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WFIVjROZnZRblE

and

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nBNcHBaWEVaRUE

I'm afraid to do a WOT run right now.. Should I get one or hold off for now? Haven't really seen feedback knock corrections that high before.
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:16 PM   #15
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2 new logs.. i seem to be getting feedback knock at low rpms again.. when lifting off the throttle from what I can see.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WFIVjROZnZRblE

and

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nBNcHBaWEVaRUE

I'm afraid to do a WOT run right now.. Should I get one or hold off for now? Haven't really seen feedback knock corrections that high before.
The occasional double count of feedback knock correction (-2.8) is not a huge deal at very low calculated load (around 1.0 g/rev or less). You do have a much larger correction at the same low load area in the 2nd log. I assume this is still on the 91ACN map? Looks like the knock sensor may be picking up some noise in your case. Could be something loose in the engine bay. I would go over anything that you may touched due to a mod or repair.

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Old 06-17-2012, 12:57 AM   #16
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So took some more logs and 1wot run. I flashed to 91acn lwg a few days ago. The only mod I've done recently was a boost gauge. I'll check to see if anything's rattling around.

Kind of ood though, it seems to be whenever i let off the throttle. I'm got a LOT of knock showing up on these..

Dam down to .82
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...G0wU3Mzc29tWVE

Dam down to .62 a little while later
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...zlhYW8wRjVkN1E

Sporadic knock events (shows up when i let off the throttle)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2FnZXVFYjRNX3c

On a side note.. I just filled up with chevron today.
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Old 06-17-2012, 12:58 AM   #17
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:31 AM   #18
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That still looks a lot like noise - either something is making noise in the engine bay or you have a busted ringland. Unfortunately, the latter is not uncommon with the later model WRXs and STis whether you are modified or not. It seems some cars just end up with it regardless and a dropping DAM with large knock corrections that don't respond to more conservative maps (or greater octane) are typical symptoms of ringland failure or other noise that the knock sensor is picking up.

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Old 06-17-2012, 10:11 PM   #19
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Interesting, so it's definitely not what I would normally be expecting. Well I can't think of anything else as I've only done the boost sensor and the car has barely 6000 miles on it. I'll have to double check.

Would there be any way to confirm the busted ringland? Like adding a few more values to the ap log? That way i could confirm/or rule it out? short of a compression test. Still going to be checking the engine bay over again too.

Last edited by taejin; 06-17-2012 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:21 AM   #20
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Interesting, so it's definitely not what I would normally be expecting. Well I can't think of anything else as I've only done the boost sensor and the car has barely 6000 miles on it. I'll have to double check.

Would there be any way to confirm the busted ringland? Like adding a few more values to the ap log? That way i could confirm/or rule it out? short of a compression test. Still going to be checking the engine bay over again too.
Sometimes, with the oil cap removed, you can see puffs of smoke from there at idle, but the lack of that does not mean you don't have the problem. A compression/leakdown test is the only definitive way.

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Old 06-18-2012, 10:31 AM   #21
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Sometimes, with the oil cap removed, you can see puffs of smoke from there at idle, but the lack of that does not mean you don't have the problem. A compression/leakdown test is the only definitive way.

Bill
I'll have to keep an eye out for now then (logs/will check for smoke and get a compression test this weekend hopefully). I appreciate all the input Bill.

I'll probably post here for an update if anything changes or I figure out what's causing the knock readings.
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
When you see corrections around 1.0 g/rev of load or less, it is generally noise and can be ignored. It is only a problem if you are seeing extreme corrections (beyond double counts of -2.8 consistently). That could mean you have something rattling in the engine bay or that you may have a mechanical issue. Other things to look for are at high load not due to mashing the throttle, such as in the middle of your WOT run. If you see feedback knock correction consistently (-1.4 or worse) there, that is something you want to address. You will occasionally see single count (-1.4) fine knock learning at high load (that learns relatively quickly back to zero) that can be normal due to abruptly lifting off the throttle at the end of a WOT run.

Rev matching could possibly introduce some noise, but really any low load/RPM throttle changes can do this.

Bill
Hello quick question im getting -3.2 when taking off from a stop and shifting 1 and 2d gear but no knock on wot. Any insight?

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Old 04-25-2015, 05:57 AM   #23
myflowsocold
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2008 STI
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Originally Posted by eduardo_14_sti View Post
Hello quick question im getting -3.2 when taking off from a stop and shifting 1 and 2d gear but no knock on wot. Any insight?

Sent from my SM-G900T using NASIOC mobile app
What RPMs are you shifting at? I don't think there's enough info to diagnose anything. Can you do a 3rd gear WOT from 2500-7000rpm (for 5 speed)/ 4th gear 2500-7000rpm (for 6 speed). Emailing cobb tuning would be a good idea also.
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