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Old 06-19-2012, 01:24 PM   #1
disturbed-az
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Default Some trouble with stage 1 tune...

Hi everyone...

Got an AP and a perrin stage 1 tune. Car is running much better and really can't compare with stock as far as power delivery and smoothness...I am, however, running into a bit of trouble getting rid of some knock.

Target boost is 16.5 - I've got tons of datalogs at different stages of the tune. The weird thing is - I'd start hitting target boost, then I'd get some knock at lower rpm range (consistent with every 3rd gear pull) - I'd send the logs back, get a map revision - the lower rpm knock is gone, but the upper rpm range still has knock now - even higher than before.

I think the tuner is having to pull the timing back quite a bit. I am pumping at shell (91 of course).

Is anyone else running a stage 1 map here in arizona that could perhaps share what kind of timing they are pulling at which rpm range. I am really curious to find out if timing is having to be lowered due to bad gas OR if it's something else.

Weird thing is - yesterday I read up on this a bit and noticed that cobb notes that the ideal DAM (dynamic advance multiplier) is 1.0 for a 2011 wrx and that if the 'bad gas' was the cause of knock the DAM would not be 1.0 - thus why I'm suspecting that the gas isn't the issue here.

Any insight? I have 2 logs I will post for your entertainment lol...1st is with higher timing, and 2nd log is lower timing to try and take care of the knock.

In the 2nd log (version 4 of the map) I've decided to log the DAM after reading the cobb article on that. The first log (version 3) is where the car felt like it ran stronger.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nBaMnVEM1l0cVE

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...XJkU3NQSndFZXc



Let me know what you think Thanks!
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:51 PM   #2
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What time of day are you doing the pulls? The Intake temps are insanely hot, it was 112 degrees yesterday and I can imagine coupled with 91 and the stock "dinner plate" TMIC that it's running a little junky.

From looking at your logs, it looks like you're going 100% throttle at 2200 rpms (well below the power band) and lugging the motor before boost tips in, then you're getting a huge wave of boost+heat+low rpms which the ECU sees and tries to time for. The way I see it, if you're gonna go WOT in the summertime you should try to be above 3400 rpms and even then I'd try to keep it to a minimum just for longevity.

This post is sort of helpful at explaining it, and the thread it came out of is a similar issue.
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/3349978-post19.html
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Old 06-19-2012, 02:02 PM   #3
s-tizzleboost
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what yman said!! ^^


also i believe i have herd this situation or situations like this with the perrin maps!
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Old 06-19-2012, 02:07 PM   #4
disturbed-az
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This was a 3rd gear pull as asked for by perrin - only to datalog. I don't do 2k rpm WOT pulls ever and if I do a WOT pull I make sure I'm well into the powerband...

The pulls were done in the morning. One was done at 7:30am, other at 6:30am...
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:06 PM   #5
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Honestly, that first log doesn't look too bad. -1.4 is only one knock count event and it went right away.

The 2nd log has higher knock on the learned knock which is strange. Almost like you may have done a few pulls before the map settled in (like 100 miles of driving or so) and it saw some higher knock counts around then.

If you did a few more pulls like that, those learned values may go away if it doesn't see knock anymore.

My 2010 WRX always showed some small knock like that 1st log and when I investigated it was told not to worry about that too much, once it gets to -2.8 and more, start to worry.

Maybe wait for Mark, brocksdad, to respond, he would would know better than me....

Also, I was always told to start my WOT log runs @ 2K up to redline in 3rd gear.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:22 AM   #6
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Are you getting "tip in" knock? Knock when you 1st touch the throttle. Was that what was happening on the 1st flash?
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:47 AM   #7
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What plugs are you running and what is the gap? Your timing is already really low so it is unlikely pulling more will help you out too much more. And don't let people bother you starting logging at 2K is fine for a 2.5L it lets you look at the whole power band, you are fully spooled by 3200 so if you started logging at 3K you would miss all that data. If it was a 2L, then yes starting at 2K is a little low. When I tune my stuff I usually do 2500-8000RPM and I just have a dinky 2L

If you are not already on one step colder plugs I would make the switch and make sure you check the gap is less than .030", older plugs tend to open up as they errode and you will start knocking bad.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:51 AM   #8
disturbed-az
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinscrollGT35R View Post
Are you getting "tip in" knock? Knock when you 1st touch the throttle. Was that what was happening on the 1st flash?

Hmmm....this is usually how it turns out to be for me:
1) Reflash to a new map - ecu learning is reset
2) I've been instructed to do a couple of 3rd gear pulls as soon as a new map is reflashed - this has always resulted in knock in the same rpm range - always a little in lower rpm range for a couple of 100s of rpm and then a bit more usually past 5500 rpm until redline - but higher knock

3) Then I drive normally for say 20-30 miles taking it easy. Then out of nowhere what you've described starts happening. I seem to get that 'tip in' knock to about -1.4 degrees every single time I even feather the throttle as soon as I get into boost.

It's quite annoying...At this point I am a bit frustrated with the way perrin tune came out to be.

Yesterday I ordered a toqued performance tune and I am taking a different approach. I reflashed, and I am driving normally and intend to do so for maybe 20-30 miles or whatever and then I'm gonna do a couple of 3rd gear pulls. I don't know why, but the fact that the file size of the torqued performance tune is double the size of the perrin makes me suspect that it has more parameters changed/customized and it makes me feel a bit better.

So far, in the last 20 miles or so after the TP reflash I haven't received any knock - not yet at least. I've went into boost the same way I did before and everything seems good. I've done a few light pulls to maybe 4500 rpm and no knock yet.

I really hope that this is a better map and that it gets rid of that knock that I hate to see so much.



TwinscrollGT35R - since you mentioned the 'tip in' knock - are you suspecting anything? Had a similar experience ?

Last edited by disturbed-az; 06-20-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
What plugs are you running and what is the gap? Your timing is already really low so it is unlikely pulling more will help you out too much more. And don't let people bother you starting logging at 2K is fine for a 2.5L it lets you look at the whole power band, you are fully spooled by 3200 so if you started logging at 3K you would miss all that data. If it was a 2L, then yes starting at 2K is a little low. When I tune my stuff I usually do 2500-8000RPM and I just have a dinky 2L

If you are not already on one step colder plugs I would make the switch and make sure you check the gap is less than .030", older plugs tend to open up as they errode and you will start knocking bad.
I am running the same/original plugs that came with the car a year ago. I am really open to suggestions if something as minor as that might help get rid of unwanted crap...
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbed-az View Post

TwinscrollGT35R - since you mentioned the 'tip in' knock - are you suspecting anything? Had a similar experience ?
Yes I have had that before. You have a stock flywheel right?

Anyways, There is a map in the ROM that address's the "tip in"

Which tuning you using? OS or AP?
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbed-az View Post
I am running the same/original plugs that came with the car a year ago. I am really open to suggestions if something as minor as that might help get rid of unwanted crap...
Get rid of those plugs asap. Get one step colder. PM me if you want some info.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:08 PM   #12
disturbed-az
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinscrollGT35R View Post
Yes I have had that before. You have a stock flywheel right?

Anyways, There is a map in the ROM that address's the "tip in"

Which tuning you using? OS or AP?

I am using the AP for tuning...and I will send you a PM regarding the plug info - I'll gladly change them out if it will help
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:49 PM   #13
tsuruwi
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Eric (torqued performance) will take care of you.
I was using his maps when I had my 2010 and he was always really helpful and willing to tweak the tune for you.

I've always heard it is best to flash a new map and take it easy for a good 50-60 miles or so to let the IAM learn and the air fuel trims.
Especially doing an email tune.

Good luck.....
With this heat right now it isn't the best time to really get the best results but you want to make sure your car is safe and running well with little to no knock.
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:12 PM   #14
lukeskywrx
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Back in the day letting the car learn was accepted wisdom 10 years ago, but its not quite the same now.

IAM is set to full advance after most reflashes so there is no real learning and fuel trims are not used for WOT since it is just open loop.

And what is all this PM me for plug info crap? Lets keep the discussion open so others can learn as well. Buy 1 heat range colder plugs for your car and make sure the gap is correct before installing. If you are getting some tip in knock it is likely due to the plugs.

Last edited by lukeskywrx; 06-20-2012 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:26 PM   #15
tsuruwi
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I know Cobbs, and Torqued performance maps, and most I have seen on romraider start with IAM @ .5 or .75 so need some learning.
Even my clark turner map for my 04 STI starts @ .5 and was tuned on goodspeeds dyno so I don't think it is bad advice.
I know you know a hell of a lot more about tuning then me so not trying to argue just point out some of the things I have seen.

If you change the plugs, I found it was easier to get to the drivers side ones on my 2010 by first going under the car and moving the air pump hose out of the way to get to the drivers side plugs, the passengers side isn't too bad.
Good luck...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
Back in the day letting the car learn was accepted wisdom 10 years ago, but its not quite the same now.

IAM is set to full advance after most reflashes so there is no real learning and fuel trims are not used for WOT since it is just open loop.

And what is all this PM me for plug info crap? Lets keep the discussion open so others can learn as well. Buy 1 heat range colder plugs for your car and make sure the gap is correct before installing. If you are getting some tip in knock it is likely due to the plugs.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:16 PM   #16
lukeskywrx
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I havent seen the low starting IAM on the Clark tunes I have fixed for people, but I just threw the rom away after looking at how it was setup since I like my cars to drive smooth with no knock.

The issue with starting at a lower IAM is with trying to get good logs, since the car will only be running part of its timing advance after a reflash. Just think you reflash do some logs and there is no knock so you think its fine, then the car starts adding more timing as IAM increases till knock is encountered. The car will always try to advance to full IAM so will constantly be knocking. This is how subaru deals with knock control from the factory so the car can accomodate a range of gas and always make power. This is a terrible strategy for higher power cars since the damage induced by knock increases with cylinder pressures. But everyone has their own flavor of tuning, I prefer my fully advanced map to have no knock, I might be giving up a little power but I dont get detonation as the car tries to increase IAM all the time. I ditched the factory knock control strategy years ago and it makes the tunes far more stable since timing can only go down, not up.

When we designed the knock/timing control system for the speed density rom we chose to use my strategy for knock control, not the factory style to prevent continual advance.


Pull a learning view from your car if you can and take a look at how happy it is.

Last edited by lukeskywrx; 06-21-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:19 PM   #17
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Thanks for all the advice guys...the PM was just that lol (to defuse any drama hehe) - to use one step colder plugs. Eric seems to know what he's doing and I like the fact that when he noticed knock in my 3rd gear pulls he actually suggested we try and figure out a reason for knock rather than just tunning around it and lowering the timing. He's got me doing some additional logging, not doing WOT pulls, just cruising around with some different parameters to log...

I've also cleaned out the MAF and changed the air filter to try and rule out some minor stuff - it's worth the try anyway...
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
I havent seen the low starting IAM on the Clark tunes I have fixed for people, but I just threw the rom away after looking at how it was setup since I like my cars to drive smooth with no knock.

The issue with starting at a lower IAM is with trying to get good logs, since the car will only be running part of its timing advance after a reflash. Just think you reflash do some logs and there is no knock so you think its fine, then the car starts adding more timing as IAM increases till knock is encountered. The car will always try to advance to full IAM so will constantly be knocking. This is how subaru deals with knock control from the factory so the car can accomodate a range of gas and always make power. This is a terrible strategy for higher power cars since the damage induced by knock increases with cylinder pressures. But everyone has their own flavor of tuning, I prefer my fully advanced map to have no knock, I might be giving up a little power but I dont get detonation as the car tries to increase IAM all the time. I ditched the factory knock control strategy years ago and it makes the tunes far more stable since timing can only go down, not up.

When we designed the knock/timing control system for the speed density rom we chose to use my strategy for knock control, not the factory style to prevent continual advance.


Pull a learning view from your car if you can and take a look at how happy it is.
you sir, are awesome!

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Old 06-21-2012, 04:40 PM   #19
tsuruwi
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PM sent with some questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
I havent seen the low starting IAM on the Clark tunes I have fixed for people, but I just threw the rom away after looking at how it was setup since I like my cars to drive smooth with no knock.

The issue with starting at a lower IAM is with trying to get good logs, since the car will only be running part of its timing advance after a reflash. Just think you reflash do some logs and there is no knock so you think its fine, then the car starts adding more timing as IAM increases till knock is encountered. The car will always try to advance to full IAM so will constantly be knocking. This is how subaru deals with knock control from the factory so the car can accomodate a range of gas and always make power. This is a terrible strategy for higher power cars since the damage induced by knock increases with cylinder pressures. But everyone has their own flavor of tuning, I prefer my fully advanced map to have no knock, I might be giving up a little power but I dont get detonation as the car tries to increase IAM all the time. I ditched the factory knock control strategy years ago and it makes the tunes far more stable since timing can only go down, not up.

When we designed the knock/timing control system for the speed density rom we chose to use my strategy for knock control, not the factory style to prevent continual advance.


Pull a learning view from your car if you can and take a look at how happy it is.
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:53 PM   #20
disturbed-az
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...just an update, like it matters lol...eric at TP was able to really dial in the tune and it's running good - for now at least hehe so so sooooo much better than before - not even comparable...
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Old 07-02-2012, 02:01 PM   #21
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Eric did the same for me, i was having a bit of tip in knock and low load knock with the cobb OTS stage 2. I'm on revision 5 right now and it has been running great. Pulls like a damn freight train too.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:03 PM   #22
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Glad to hear. Eric is a good guy.
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Old 07-02-2012, 06:12 PM   #23
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good is an understatement. one night i sent him logs and went to bed assuming he would get the revision back in the morning...he got a revision back to me at 1230 at night. lol
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