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Old 06-20-2012, 02:25 PM   #1
mcuzzin
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Default AZ drivers - Coilover setups

Whatsup my fellow AZ-SWIC members?

I am looking at several different coilover setups for my 2011 WRX sedan.

Is anyone running ISC N1's? Or have any opinion on these? I have been reading a lot and talking to AJW and IIR...they can hook em up for $905 shipped with damper adjustment extenders, camber plates, and thrust bearings. I have only seen great reviews on these as well as customer service.

If not, what coilovers do you have? How do you like them as DD+our infamous canyons? (I don't plan to AutoX anytime soon)

Thanks,
mike
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:18 PM   #2
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Be lucky your not in California. We really do have great roads out here in Arizona.

I have BC Racing BR Series coilovers. And all I did was flip my front camber plates, free camber! You should really think more about your spring rate than all those little extenders and stuff, I have the rear extenders, and rarely ever use them.

I am running 8k front and 6k rear spring rates.

So far so good, I can take a corner very nicely, and virtually no body roll. Of course there are those streets like 75th ave near the 10 that are just crap, but say the 101 or Bell and all the other decent roads, I really like the way it hugs the ground.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:06 PM   #3
mcuzzin
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True..we do have some nice roads. Besides some terrible ones in south/east gilbert haha.

The guys at Import Image are throwing in the "little extenders and stuff" Extenders just make it easy to adjust damping without unbolting the top of the rears. Thrust bearings reduce noise and increase steering response. All nice things to have! I think I just sold myself lulz

They have 3 different setups - Street comfort, street sport (8k/6k), then track/race (10k/8k). Lowest damping setting on track/race is same as hardest setting on street/sport so I am leaning towards the mids for DD + fun drives

Thanks for the post
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Old 06-24-2012, 03:46 PM   #4
pr0d1gy ice
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Just put in my Fortune Auto Dreadnoughts. LOVE them. Customer service is amazing. The car rides and handles better than before. Feels much more solid. 07 STI. Roller bearings are a must!

from iwsti

"Man FA customer service is amazing. Ive been having some popping noises with my roller bearings/ springs on my gen 3 FA 500 coil overs when reversing and turning into parking spots at low speeds. FA is sending me the gen 4 510 with the swift springs and 9k/9k spring rates. The upgrade was free and they are not expecting me to send them my coils until I have the new ones installed. They even offered to pay my $450 of install, corner balance, and alignment charges. Seriously can't ask for more that that out of a company."

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspe...ml#post3610979

Last edited by pr0d1gy ice; 06-24-2012 at 03:47 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:45 PM   #5
mcuzzin
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How much did you end up paying for your Dreadnoughts? I read about those and they look amazing. I have increased my budget to $1200-1500 and those still seem to be out of my price range unfortunately (their site says ~1899).

I was trying to save some money by looking at ISC/BC etc but I don't want to make compromises in DD comfort or performance. In my mass amounts of research over the past week I am leaning more towards Fortune Auto, Stance, or possibly KW (if my wallet/wife let's me lol).

Any more thoughts on FA, Stance, or KW? Or others?
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:48 PM   #6
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p.s. Stance throw on the roller bearings to their sets now and call them "Super Sport" rather than "GR". I have heard a lot of good things about these, FA, and of course KW. This all just makes it even harder to decide!
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:48 PM   #7
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hmpf. my first double post >.<
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:50 AM   #8
pr0d1gy ice
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I cannot say anything about other brands. My dreadnoughts were much cheaper than $1899 but I paid shop cost from a shop in VA. If you cannot afford the dreadnoughts I have heard very good things about the new FA 510's, I have also driven/rode in a car with 500's. Great ride and great handling.

The FA's ride IMO ride better than other brands and this is probably due to a 50mm coilover. Personally if it were me I would make my purchase over and over again. No regrets. If you want dreadnoughts just wait, if you want to save money go for the 510's. If you have no plans on autox anytime soon stay with the 510's. I was going to buy 500's but when I was presented with my deal I took it.

I am not sure who started the roller bearing upgrade but I first heard about it from FA. Great upgrade. Well worth the extra money. I would also look at the warranty of each coilover you are considering. I know FA will pay to have them reinstalled and aligned if they fail.

FYI my dreadnoughts took 6 weeks to come in. They were built after I ordered them.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:51 AM   #9
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Also FA are made in the usa. Except for the swift springs.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:22 PM   #10
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I've been talking to echelon autosports about ksports and fortunes. Anyone coolin on some ksports kontrol pros?
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:15 AM   #11
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Do not want. I have personally seen 3 sets of K sports seize. 3 out of 3 cars that I have had K Sports seized within 2 years.

BC is the best bang for your buck.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:25 AM   #12
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i rock tein coils up in prescott and it sucks. i would rather have a nice spring strut combo up here, but it also could be that the tein are stupid stiff. i 3 wheel motion over any roll curb entrances.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:57 AM   #13
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I've had my ksports for about a year and haven't had any problems... yet.... I have driven it to CA and back and I did some quick rallying in the forest. They were better than my stock shocks in the washboard stuff. They don't have much downtravel or much suspension travel at all so you it can give you the rollercoaster effect on bigger bumps. at the softest setting they are comfortable around town. They don't make any extra noises. I had a friend who has been autocrossing/drag racing with ksports on his dsm for a long time with no issues. He actually recomended them to me as a good economic coilover after using several other setups. If you got 2k$ to spend on coilovers then yeah get something better quality. I spent about 1k$ and I'm pretty happy, it handles great and it doesnt destroy my f'ed up spine. the extra $$ went into decent wheels/tires which helped the handling more than anything. If my ksports seize up on me ill be sure I post a topic about what P.O.S's they are. I would be more worried about owning some rotas and breaking a rim.
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:23 PM   #14
mcuzzin
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Yeah I haven't heard too many great reivews on Ksports.

Fortune Auto 500's fit in my budget and I am really liking that they forge their mounts, have large shock bodies, shock dyno w/ graphs of each coil, the list goes on....I think I'm sold.

And now that Echelon just quoted me a nice price. I think I am going to pull the trigger. That is once I figure out a spring rate.

Suprised nobody in SWIC has Fortune Auto other than prodigy
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:13 PM   #15
yman
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I'll have to look into those Fortune Auto 500's. My forester is a little too low for my taste I want to raise it back about 3/4" and might be willing to do it with those Fortune Auto's or BC's. Otherwise it's just gonna be STI springs for awhile.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:50 PM   #16
pr0d1gy ice
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FA is from Virginia. I just moved here from VA Beach. FA was huge in VA/my tuning world. You could also drive to FA's shop and have them installed, troubleshot, rebuilt, etc...

I chose FA because they are made in the USA. The customer service is top notch. The ride is better IMO and they use Amsoil (I sell Amsoil also.) Hope you like them mcuzzin and get a great deal from whoever you choose.

Yman if you would like I can give you the shop info of the shop I purchased mine from. They are out of state so no taxes and I know they were comparable to local/online vendors.
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:39 AM   #17
mcuzzin
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what spring rates did you choose? Do you track or just DD+fun?
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:10 PM   #18
mcuzzin
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Just so you are aware --> Fortune Auto's are not manufactured in the US. Although they are assembled and inspected at the US facility in Virginia. That is where they produce the shock dyno results. So either way, that doesn't really matter because all I care about is that the quality control is in the US.


I just placed my order for Fortune Auto 500 series Generation 4 w/ Roller bearings 8k/8k spring rates. If anyone is interested i'll post a review late next week once I receive them. Next week is optimistic as they custom build/valve them to order.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:53 PM   #19
mcuzzin
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My note on BC's/Fortune Auto and manufacturing:

I chose not to go with BC's mainly due to the fact that the brackets are welded on. Anytime you weld, you create stress concentrations at the joint and it will not be as strong as a machined part.

Fortune Auto's are forged and machined to spec from a block of material. No welds = maintains original material properties.

"Dyno tested
Mono-Tube damper with high pressure nitrogen
24-step rebound adjustable dampers
Spherical Bearings
IP synthetic 5w or 10w shock oil (prevents cavitation and promotes superior heat dissipation)
6061 Forged & Anodized aluminum mounts and camber plates**
Height adjustment independent of pre-load
5 year Manufacturer's Warranty (1 year on piston)
Swift springs upgrade available
Rebuild-able in the USA
Revalve-able in the USA"
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcuzzin View Post
My note on BC's/Fortune Auto and manufacturing:

I chose not to go with BC's mainly due to the fact that the brackets are welded on. Anytime you weld, you create stress concentrations at the joint and it will not be as strong as a machined part.

Fortune Auto's are forged and machined to spec from a block of material. No welds = maintains original material properties.
Really, so you're a weld engineer? Because I actually am, and what you are posting is a bunch of half-truths.

It sounds to me like you're drinking the marketing kool-aid and looking for reasons to justify your purchase. Which is fine, until you start making **** up about it.
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Old 06-27-2012, 04:25 PM   #21
mcuzzin
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You would be much more helpful if you would just tell people why instead of wasting a post like that.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:05 PM   #22
mcuzzin
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Please also tell us what welding methods used, electrodes, parent and welding materials used, and the cooling rates as well that BC uses.

And I am pretty sure BC uses iron lower brackets. While they are welding onto cast iron at a higher temperature than the heat treat temperature would it not change the grain structure?

Half-truths or not, I'd like to hear what the weld engineer thinks. While you're at it, tell us why you bought forged wheels vs cast. That is if you are who I think you are lol.
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcuzzin View Post
You would be much more helpful if you would just tell people why instead of wasting a post like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcuzzin View Post
Please also tell us what welding methods used, electrodes, parent and welding materials used, and the cooling rates as well that BC uses.

And I am pretty sure BC uses iron lower brackets. While they are welding onto cast iron at a higher temperature than the heat treat temperature would it not change the grain structure?

Half-truths or not, I'd like to hear what the weld engineer thinks. While you're at it, tell us why you bought forged wheels vs cast. That is if you are who I think you are lol.
Yes, I'm the one wasting posts... The irony of you making two consecutive posts 40 minutes apart to make that point is not lost on us.

I do not know the specifics of BC's weld process. But neither do you. What I can tell you, however, is that THERE IS NOT A CHANCE IN HELL that they are welding their lower mounts out of cast iron.

If you look at the pictures of their products, it is very clear that they are making the lowers out of some form of stamped steel for the plates that bolt to the hub and a steel tube for the threaded body. That tube may be a seamless tube of some sort or it may be a stamping. My money is on a tube that is cut, formed (by way of swaging or pressing over a mandrel), and then threaded in a turning operation. That is only an educated guess though. One thing is certain, it is not cast iron. They are using a MIG or TIG welding operation to join the parts.

I do not know much about Fortune Auto units either, but looking at some pictures of them, it looks like their lowers are made from aluminum. Based on the shape, they are probably made from an extruded aluminum form that closely resembles the final shape (a round tube with two ribs). This form is probably one long part which they are cutting into several smaller 5-6" lengths. These blanks are them machined into their final form. You are correct, there is no welding.

Where I take issue with your post is where you make the statement that a weld is a weak point and that a welded part cannot be as strong as a machined part. This is a ridiculous statement that is so broad in scope that it cannot be taken as anything other than a joke. There are too many variables to consider to make such a statement and you know basically none of them. Your declaration about cast iron, heat treating, grain structure, and weld energy is proof of this.

Here is something to think about: Material. Do you know the condition of either materials prior to working? What is the grade of steel on the BC's? What is the grade of the aluminum on the Fortune Auto's? Perhaps one or the other or both are spot buying their material from a dirty mill and its filled with folds, inclusions, etc that will weaken it. Did either go though any sort of post processing treatment to release internal stresses or to increase strength or to bring the harness into a range? You can't speak for any of this?

Here is another point: Geometry. Geometry of the part plays a key role in its strength. Perhaps BC has an engineer or two who designed that lower so that the welds are in lower stress regions based on loading of the part during operation? Maybe there are interlocking tabs between the lower supports and the tube body to reduce stress on the weld with a mechanical feature but you can't see them because the part is now welded. Maybe a tool used to cut the FA lowers is too sharp (no radius) and leaving a stress concentration in a location that will be prone to failing during use?

Aluminum and steel behave very differently as you can guess. Aluminum fails catastrophically, but steel is generally more forgiving. If that FA lower wasn't machined properly or the aluminum grade isn't correct for the application, it's entirely possible it could fail after the repeated cyclical loading it see while you drive. And when it fails, it may just detach from the strut entirely leaving you in a mess. But the steel BC unit might simple bend instead allowing you to safely pilot your car to the side of the road.

Also, the grains in a part machined from billet are all aligned, but this cannot be construed as a good thing always! In fact, it can be very bad. They could all be aligned in such a manner that you are not using the grains and grain boundaries to your benefit. Your design should work to form the grain structure of the material to help. This can be done through impacting, stamping, etc, but it really can't be done too successfully machining a part indiscriminately from a solid piece of billet.

And yet another point: Weld parameters. Welds are as good as they are designed to be. You can ENTIRELY change the characteristics of a weld process with the weld parameters (heat/energy, force, shield gas, cleanliness of the parts, pre-treating, post-treating, etc). I am perpetually experimenting with weld settings at work to generate the best outputs possible given the conditions of the welding. That said, I ROUTINELY WELD PARTS WHERE THE WELD IS FAR STRONGER THAT THE PARENT MATERIAL, both in strength and fatigue life. So no, the weld is not the weak point.

I am not trying to say that BC is better than FA or that either is designed poorly (that's a discussion for another thread). What I am saying is that your statement was simply incorrect given the lack of intimate familiarity with either companies process or product. It sounds like you were regurgitating the marketing pitches of the aftermarket parts community and supplementing your own knowledge which consisted of buzz words with little understanding of how to use them.




Lastly, I have never bought aftermarket wheels for any of my cars. I used to have the cast (I think stock WRX wheels. Now I have a couple of sets of forged STI BBS (2005 and 2009). I'm not sure what I should say about that.

I'm not sure you know who I am, but perhaps we've met. If so, I apologize for not remembering and I hope we can get off on a better foot next time. Good luck with the new coils!

Last edited by kpluiten; 06-27-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:42 PM   #24
mcuzzin
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OMGHi2U

BOOM HUGE POST! Thank you. That is exactly what I wanted out of you!

And this
"Yes, I'm the one wasting posts... The irony of you making two consecutive posts 40 minutes apart to make that point is not lost on us."
Is hilarious. I am not sure why timing on a forum really makes a difference but I only said those things to egg you on A good engineer should be skeptical, and they should always back-up their claims with data/knowledge. Your first post was just saying "blah blah blah half truths blah kool-aid bro blah blah DONT MAKE **** UP ASSHAT blaaaaah". Which wasn't helpful...but your last post was!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
Really, so you're a weld engineer? Because I actually am, and what you are posting is a bunch of half-truths.

It sounds to me like you're drinking the marketing kool-aid and looking for reasons to justify your purchase. Which is fine, until you start making **** up about it.
So again, Thank you for the better post.

Here's where it just says "Iron brackets"...but no more info than that
http://bcracing-na.info/products.php?view=Technical

We're not off on a bad foot Just 1 engineer requesting knowledge from another. I am not a weld engineer...i know of the processes and several 'buzz words' lol. But I am no expert obviously.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:46 PM   #25
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I remember you now; you're the program manager from Honeywell. It took me a while to remember.

And I generally don't waste my time with a long reply like that at first because most people don't care to learn anything. Why waste my time and their's?
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