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Old 06-24-2012, 05:30 PM   #51
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:48 PM   #52
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I love manuals - been driving them for 20 years, and that's under half as long as my father has, and some of my friends who also love them. But, they were a means to an end (shifting gears) that happened to earn respect from keen drivers. With the advent of lightning-quick dual-clutch auto-manual systems, the shift-yourself systems will disappear. When racing teams don't use manuals anymore, you can pretty much call it like it is: it's a dying legacy.

That said, it is still a less expensive alternative than fancy DSG/etc. systems, and a far cry better than a typical automatic slushbox. So I'd love to see them at least be options, for a few more years. But I don't think it'll be long until they're all but impossible to find, on a new car.... even more so than now.

Realistically, manufacturers will package and sell what is faster, more efficient and actually sells cars, versus what is nostalgic. I'll miss them like crazy, though.
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Old 06-24-2012, 08:17 PM   #53
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5 of my last 7 cars that ive driven and owned have been MT, so nobody can accuse me of being some AT elitist.

But I'll say this, yes it sucks that MT is being phased out as an option in certain cars, for others I feel like it brings nothing do the table performance wise, but at the same time, why do we care.

The simple truth is manual drivers feel like it makes them better people than those who aren't. I know this is true in my case and pretty much everyone else who drives manual. Those who deny it are in denial or lying. Also those who argue that driving MT makes them feel more like 'one with the machine' it's true to an extent

but it's also incredibly self-important, fatuous, pompous, nonsense. It's the equivalent of someone tooting his own horn. If someone likes driving manual for the saking of driving manual, that's great. But when one is openly vocal about it as some thinly veiled gesture of 'look how awesome I am! and you guys who don't suck!' really need to get over themselves.

100000% agree i couldnt have said it better myself. i'm not even going to read the rest of the posts. btw 4 of the 7 cars i've owned in the last 12 years have been manual transmission, so im no AT or MT elitist either.

it reminds me of how so many people are mad at the upper eschelon car marques for doing away with manual transmissions, but its not like any of those people will be buying those cars anyway. seriously, just in spirit of this thread (bmw m5/m6), how many of the people commenting on manual transmissions are really in the market for the next m5 or m6?
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:39 AM   #54
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Most of the people in the thread, including me are NOT that worried or even care that the M5/M6 are auto's only. It is the dying trend of not even offering manuals at all that is being complained about the most. No two pedal system will ever be as fun as a 3 pedal system. Faster is irrelevant.

Do you get a huge bonus for being 2 tenths of a second earlier to work?

Do you get a trophy for pulling away from the traffic light 4 tenths faster?

To a great many enthusiasts, three pedals is just more fun and involving. The upper echelon of cars cater to mostly uber wealthy people who would rather been seen. The average Ferrari driver does not track his 456, rather he commutes in it to car shows and to take his trophy wife out in it. Auto boxes are made to cater to those people. It has nothing to do with being more involving. They produce quicker magazine racing numbers for people with very small egos to brag about. They are here to stay though. NO denying that.

Thankfully the classic marketplace will provide a plethora of great manual cars for decades to come for those who wish to be connected to the car in an entirely more involving way.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:00 AM   #55
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The thing is, the M5 isn't about being a communicative sports car. It's about being a blazing fast luxobarge. At least, the e39 M5 I drove wasn't very communicative and I would have been just as happy with a good autobox as with the manual gearbox.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:42 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Most of the people in the thread, including me are NOT that worried or even care that the M5/M6 are auto's only. It is the dying trend of not even offering manuals at all that is being complained about the most. No two pedal system will ever be as fun as a 3 pedal system. Faster is irrelevant.

Do you get a huge bonus for being 2 tenths of a second earlier to work?

Do you get a trophy for pulling away from the traffic light 4 tenths faster?

To a great many enthusiasts, three pedals is just more fun and involving. The upper echelon of cars cater to mostly uber wealthy people who would rather been seen. The average Ferrari driver does not track his 4568, rather he commutes in it to car shows and to take his trophy wife out in it. Auto boxes are made to cater to those people. It has nothing to do with being more involving. They produce quicker magazine racing numbers for people with very small egos to brag about. They are here to stay though. NO denying that.

Thankfully the classic marketplace will provide a plethora of great manual cars for decades to come for those who wish to be connected to the car in an entirely more involving way.
that is very opinionated. It is only fun because we think or have been brought up to think extra mechanical inputs are fun. I mean at what point did our grandpappies think that no longer double clutching made their sons boring in driving stick shift?

the way i see it, the less inputs i need to make to be as focused on enjoying the driving experience / going faster the better things are for me. This comes with a limit however, (I think we all vary on here the edge is) which is the degree of separation from the physical inputs we want to provide to control the car. For me that is acceleration, braking and steering. Other people (read all these MT enthusiasts) want shifting.

Some more background on where I am coming from (which will prob shed more light on my view). Grew up learning MT (in Pakistan), have excellent clutch control etc. However, I never got to the point of heel toe downshifting... sure I can do it, but I would not trust myself to do it well or healthily (for the car). So if a 2 pedal system makes me faster around the track, gives me less distraction, I'll take that any day.

Ask me this question 7 years ago (before I drove the IS, and the VW DSGs) and my answer would be solidly in the 3pedals>2pedals category. Since then the 2pedals have gotten better and better and I will (high budget car) go with the 2pedals over 3. Low budget? prob still go 3.

And if the 458 was not faster in its current 2 pedal format, they would probably still be making them with 3 pedals to conform to homogenizing specs required for GT, Lemans racing etc.

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Old 06-25-2012, 11:12 AM   #57
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Well it was my only my opinion stating 3 >> fun than 2 (naturally that is not a fact).

HOwever, I can say this without hesitation. 3pedals >>> involvement than 2 pedals.

Some people crave the involvement, others, like yourself, crave track times. I have no use for track times, since I do not race professionally. When I do race, it is for fun and I am purely a hobbyist.

I totally understand the acceptance in a DSG for a DD. Some days I get so darn mad at traffic, I wish I had one.

I do not want to lose the option of a manual. I crave involvement. I like feeling like I am in control of everything when I drive.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:18 AM   #58
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Well it was my only my opinion stating 3 >> fun than 2 (naturally that is not a fact).

HOwever, I can say this without hesitation. 3pedals >>> involvement than 2 pedals.

Some people crave the involvement, others, like yourself, crave track times. I have no use for track times, since I do not race professionally. When I do race, it is for fun and I am purely a hobbyist.

I totally understand the acceptance in a DSG for a DD. Some days I get so darn mad at traffic, I wish I had one.

I do not want to lose the option of a manual. I crave involvement. I like feeling like I am in control of everything when I drive.
precisely. And this is what I wanted to hash out once and for all. I appreciate your penning your thoughts and sharing them. Hell I think my dream track day would be taking an etype around silverstone. I farking ride a bike from the early 70s. I love shifting.

Too many ricetards opining without much coherent though annoy me.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:47 PM   #59
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I mean at what point did our grandpappies think that no longer double clutching made their sons boring in driving stick shift?
I actually have a habit of double clutching, officially for the sake of saving my synchros. (For what it's worth, my WRX had virtually no 1st or 2nd gear grind after 8 years of ownership) In reality, I just like the feeling of the shift lever snapping into place with almost no resistance when I get it right. So yes, I think I do enjoy making extra mechanical inputs in my DD. After all, no part of my commute is demanding enough to a point where the third pedal is a distraction.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:00 PM   #60
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Ask me this question 7 years ago (before I drove the IS, and the VW DSGs) and my answer would be solidly in the 3pedals>2pedals category. Since then the 2pedals have gotten better and better and I will (high budget car) go with the 2pedals over 3.

IMO it really boils down to a blend of:

A. Personal preference and definition of what driving pleasure means to each person.

B. The importance of obtaining pleasure from driving (i.e the Playstation generation, SUVist's, and other "I just need wheels" type).

C. Experience, if any, in regards to driving stick.


For you 2 pedals is more fun, and you enjoyed the DSG. I drove a GLI for a week with DSG and though the "pop" into next gear was fun, the inability to row through the gear became boring. After the first day, I didn't even bother, I just kept it in drive. It was just another car to me.

My roommate, same age as me, has zero interest in driving pleasure. He could not give a crap. He drives an autobox accord that his mom gave him ten years ago. It's filthy, unloved, and used to get around. If he could have it his way; the car would drive itself. He is a tech geek, and driving is very mundane to him.

I've had some of my younger brothers friends get in my car and state they've never been in a MT car . It blows me away how out of touch the current under 25 car market is with manual transmission, and it piggy backs on what many other people have stated about kids never learning to drive stick and being surrounded my people who only drive slushboxes.


Times are changing, it's just the way things go. MT won't ever die completely, it'll just be limited to Miatas, BRZs, 911s and the like.

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Old 07-02-2012, 12:12 AM   #61
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5 of my last 7 cars that ive driven and owned have been MT, so nobody can accuse me of being some AT elitist.

But I'll say this, yes it sucks that MT is being phased out as an option in certain cars, for others I feel like it brings nothing do the table performance wise, but at the same time, why do we care.

The simple truth is manual drivers feel like it makes them better people than those who aren't. I know this is true in my case and pretty much everyone else who drives manual. Those who deny it are in denial or lying. Also those who argue that driving MT makes them feel more like 'one with the machine' it's true to an extent

but it's also incredibly self-important, fatuous, pompous, nonsense. It's the equivalent of someone tooting his own horn. If someone likes driving manual for the saking of driving manual, that's great. But when one is openly vocal about it as some thinly veiled gesture of 'look how awesome I am! and you guys who don't suck!' really need to get over themselves.

people who actually know how to drive an mt....most just 'operate' one....really are better drivers

i have ridden with some mt drivers who were so shockingly bad....THEY thought they were shumi or some ****

then I get behind the wheel and they are

yeah...detachment from driving with an at makes people poor drivers, no doubt

the satisfaction of driving a proper MT in a demanding situation...without ****ing up!!! is quite satisfying
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Old 07-03-2012, 11:54 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

people who actually know how to drive an mt....most just 'operate' one....really are better drivers

i have ridden with some mt drivers who were so shockingly bad....THEY thought they were shumi or some ****

then I get behind the wheel and they are

yeah...detachment from driving with an at makes people poor drivers, no doubt

the satisfaction of driving a proper MT in a demanding situation...without ****ing up!!! is quite satisfying
Again something something 'tooting ones own horn's. I'm still not sure why every person who speaks in defends of MT has to also mention how talented a driver he is as if that makes for a case winning point.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:51 AM   #63
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Again something something 'tooting ones own horn's. I'm still not sure why every person who speaks in defends of MT has to also mention how talented a driver he is as if that makes for a case winning point.
this. wtf people.
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:55 AM   #64
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^ +1 on that
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:21 AM   #65
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Again something something 'tooting ones own horn's. I'm still not sure why every person who speaks in defends of MT has to also mention how talented a driver he is as if that makes for a case winning point.
Agreed
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:24 AM   #66
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I love the feeling of superiority that some people get for being able to drive a stick shift... something that both my wife and my mom can do. My wife likes that her car is cute. My mom just grew up driving a stick. It isn't some super special skill. I think fewer people want to learn because people that can drive a stick make it sound like some special skill. It's easy.

BTW, my mom is actually an awful driver... but she can drive manual.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:24 PM   #67
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I love the feeling of superiority that some people get for being able to drive a stick shift... something that both my wife and my mom can do. My wife likes that her car is cute. My mom just grew up driving a stick. It isn't some super special skill. I think fewer people want to learn because people that can drive a stick make it sound like some special skill. It's easy.

BTW, my mom is actually an awful driver... but she can drive manual.
Lol very true. Every enthusiast especially in America make it sound like driving a stick is hard and special. I've been to numerous places overseas, mostly people drive sticks and they are no enthusiasts, i'm talking about, elderly, truck drivers, bus drivers <-- yes public bus was manual and I doubt the driver felt sporty, raw, and enjoyable.

I prefer manual, but I don't think I'm an elite society for doing so. Automatic manual is the future and is better.

No way should a M5 or M6 come in manual, such advanced cars.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:40 PM   #68
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I guess I'm old once again - I assume just about everyone drives stick, and the only people that don't are a small percentage of girls. I'm not sure I've ever known a guy that didn't drive stick at some point.

If you're a car enthusiast, not only can you drive stick, but you can rev-match all shifts, heel and toe or not, and even clutchless shift without a hint of grind because your coffee happened to be balancing on your left knee. These are prerequisites.

Anyone who is proud of themselves for being able to do this is either 16 years old or a pansy.

Re: new M5/6 - these cars are just too heavy and complex to make a manual rewarding IMHO
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:55 PM   #69
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Lol very true. Every enthusiast especially in America make it sound like driving a stick is hard and special. I've been to numerous places overseas, mostly people drive sticks and they are no enthusiasts, i'm talking about, elderly, truck drivers, bus drivers <-- yes public bus was manual and I doubt the driver felt sporty, raw, and enjoyable.

I prefer manual, but I don't think I'm an elite society for doing so. Automatic manual is the future and is better.

No way should a M5 or M6 come in manual, such advanced cars.
This is entirely your opinion. Better is an unquantifiable amount. Automatic is the future, but for a certain portion of the population, it is definitely NOT better. It is lazy and boring.

I never said driving a manual was a uber secret society of super drivers. I just said there are those who seek manual drive cars for the involvement and fun. There are those who seek manuals for the price savings.

Does a manual require more skill than a slush box. Absolutely.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:49 PM   #70
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This is entirely your opinion. Better is an unquantifiable amount. Automatic is the future, but for a certain portion of the population, it is definitely NOT better. It is lazy and boring.

I never said driving a manual was a uber secret society of super drivers. I just said there are those who seek manual drive cars for the involvement and fun. There are those who seek manuals for the price savings.

Does a manual require more skill than a slush box. Absolutely.
That is no opinion, it IS better.

Faster, more efficient, no error, getting cheaper, more compact and lighter.

"Lazy and boring" is an opinion. I don't think driving automatics are considered lazy.

when I drive my manual, it does not feel like a chore. I don't feel like I just came out of the gym after a drive to Walmart.

I wouldn't buy a new M5/M6 with a manual though.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:48 PM   #71
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That is no opinion, it IS better.
Given that there is human involvement it'll always be a matter of opinion.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:38 PM   #72
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That is no opinion, it IS better.
wat?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
This is entirely your opinion. Better is an unquantifiable amount.

This.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:51 PM   #73
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But by "better," he explained what he meant in the line directly after what you guys are quoting. In cars offered with both transmissions, particularly automated manuals, the row-it-yourself transmission will usually accelerate slightly slower, have slightly longer lap times and have slightly lower fuel efficiency.

A lot of today's Porsches have the variants with PDK transmissions as the quicker of the two.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:15 PM   #74
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But by "better," he explained what he meant in the line directly after what you guys are quoting. In cars offered with both transmissions, particularly automated manuals, the row-it-yourself transmission will usually accelerate slightly slower, have slightly longer lap times and have slightly lower fuel efficiency.

A lot of today's Porsches have the variants with PDK transmissions as the quicker of the two.
Thank you for more people that can think.

If automated manual wasn't better. Why is the manual going away. Hint. no mathematics or physics involved. common sense
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:33 PM   #75
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YOu are truly a mouth breather dude. Better depends on your metric of comparison.

Lets take your senseless post and dissect it shall we. I will use small words.

Faster, meaningless for a daily driver

more efficient, has to more to do with amount of gears than if it is an auto or not

no error, meaningless for a daily driver,

getting cheaper, Meaning it costs more than a manual, that would be a check in the WORSE catagory.

more compact, source, I would like to see that comparison across the board. I do not doubt there are smaller dual clutch gear boxes, but by the very nature, they are more complex, heavier, have more moving parts and failure points

lighter, see above post.

So in no way are they better by any metric that matters for a daily driver. Not even one.

Now, to me in order for something to be better it would increase driver involvement. So any automated anything is a step in the worse direction.

So if your comparison metric is

involvement, Manual is far more interactive

Cheaper, Manual is by far cheaper to produce, that is why most autos are an expensive option

reliable, Manuals can last for 40 years and hundreds of thousands of miles. The dual clutch nonsense cannot quite claim that.

Control. The computer makes all decisions for you. It allows you do to certain things if it deems okay. If wanted to drive a video game I will play forza.

The automated manual is catching on because the population in general is a bunch of morons who never learned to drive a manual, which requires a more technical skill set than put it in D and hit the small pedal.

I would ask you to refrain from bringing math or physics into this, as you would not do well.
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