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Old 08-30-2002, 11:58 AM   #1
davidm_sh
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Default Very specific UTEC questions for users/experts.

Ok I didn't see this stuff specified in the uber-Utec thread so I would like to post it here, mostly since that thread is getting ridicuosly big .

Tuning/setup wise. First off Timing:

1) Is there a way to just tell the stock ECU to take whatever value it wants and add +5 degrees to it?

2) Or if I want ANY kind of control over the timing do I have to create a load point and enter in the timing (in absolute terms) myself?

3) Basically I want to control timing from maximum vacuum all the way to full boost. So I assume I have to create my load points for the entire range and go from there then?

4) On that same idea can I use MAP signal as load? I talked with Nathan on the phone and he made it sound like, at the moment, the only load reference is TPS, which personallY I do NOT like.

Fueling:

1) Basically I want to let the computer do it's VERY good stoich 14.7:1 thing all the way to about 3psi (positive boost). SO can I use two of my 10 load points with one at maximum vacuum, and the other at 5psi and set those to "ECU" and those two will cover the entire vacuum-5psi range?

2) And then I would have 8 load points left from 5psi - 22psi or so?

3) And also again can I do this based off of MAP vs. TPS for load referencing?

I hope the answer to these questions are all good

Thanks in advance.
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Old 08-30-2002, 12:48 PM   #2
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You should PM Nathan and post a link to this thread. I too am interested in these answers...
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Old 08-30-2002, 03:13 PM   #3
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bump.

No response from all the "beta testers"? I would hope someone tried mapping via MAP instead of the TPS signal ?
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Old 08-30-2002, 03:17 PM   #4
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I think alfriedsq asked about this as well and he was told that MAP sensor mapping was not in the cards just yet and they are currently using the MAF sensor for mapping in the UTEC. Al needs a MAP sensor because he's running a big-ass turbo and cannot use his stock MAF sensor. I think they also said that MAP sensor mapping may be possible in the future. Nathan would know for sure though.
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Old 08-30-2002, 03:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by thejean
I think alfriedsq asked about this as well and he was told that MAP sensor mapping was not in the cards just yet and they are currently using the MAF sensor for mapping in the UTEC. Al needs a MAP sensor because he's running a big-ass turbo and cannot use his stock MAF sensor. I think they also said that MAP sensor mapping may be possible in the future. Nathan would know for sure though.
I know they adjust the fueling by "lieing" to the stock ECU by altering the MAF signal it gets... but I am talking about load points to base the map off of. Two different things. But yes Al can't even use the stock MAF sensor as he maxs it out.

I was just wondering since it says right on the webpage about the UTEC that it uses MAP signal for load.
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Old 08-30-2002, 03:37 PM   #6
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Oh sorry for the confusion then. Oh well, at least I'm doing a good job of bumping your questions!!

jc

EDIT: But doesn't the stock ECU fuel table also use LOAD (i.e., TPS/MAF and RPM) to determine fueling, not just TPS alone? Doesn't the UTEC take the same LOAD signal as the stock ECU but just uses a user-defined table to output different boost/fuel/timing values? Therefore, wouldn't it have to to use the MAP signal as well?

I'm not 100% sure about these things thats why I formed them as questions...

jc

Last edited by thejean; 08-30-2002 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 08-30-2002, 03:56 PM   #7
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Actually no. You are correct in that the stock ECU uses many things to determine load (MAP, MAF, and TPS). But the piggyback/UTEC only uses one thing for load. Up to this point I thought you had a choice between TPS or MAP. But it sounds like the "initial software release" is only going to have TPS ... or until I hear otherwise.

It is just like Cobb and TurboXS use TPS to determine load when they program the unichips and Vishnu uses MAP to determine load. Personally I think it is just better to use MAP sensor to determine load becuase then you don't have to worry about partial throttle problems with high boost and not enough fuel.

Becuase if you map off of TPS for load you could be at 20-30% TPS and have full boost = lean = high EGT's = bad. As compared to mapping off of MAP singal when it sees x amount of boost you get x amount of fuel accordingly. But anyway... I am rambling now.

I do know that the boost control is in fact controled with a map based off of rpm vs. TPS.
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Old 08-30-2002, 04:06 PM   #8
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Q&A:

1) Is there a way to just tell the stock ECU to take whatever value it wants and add +5 degrees to it?
A: No.

2) Or if I want ANY kind of control over the timing do I have to create a load point and enter in the timing (in absolute terms) myself?
A: Yes. Otherwise, type in "e"and you get the factory ECUs selected timing.

3) Basically I want to control timing from maximum vacuum all the way to full boost. So I assume I have to create my load points for the entire range and go from there then?
A: Correct.

4) On that same idea can I use MAP signal as load? I talked with Nathan on the phone and he made it sound like, at the moment, the only load reference is TPS, which personallY I do NOT like.
A: MAP is the main load reference. The first tuning column is for idle tuning and closed loop tuning. You can than select the TPS value at which you move from the idle/closed loop tuning column to the 9 other MAP load referenced tuning columns. So if you wanted to tune from full vacuum to full boost, you would set your TPS threshold point at 0% and you would tune from there.

Fueling:

1) Basically I want to let the computer do it's VERY good stoich 14.7:1 thing all the way to about 3psi (positive boost). SO can I use two of my 10 load points with one at maximum vacuum, and the other at 5psi and set those to "ECU" and those two will cover the entire vacuum-5psi range?
A: No. You can set you max vacuum and max boost and your nine load columns are equally spaced between from max vacuum to max boost. The first column is for idle/closed loop. Personally, we let the ECU do it's thing from 0-60% TPS (when the factory runs in closed loop) and switch to MAP based after that. We than tune MAP from 0psi to 18psi in 2psi increments.

2) And then I would have 8 load points left from 5psi - 22psi or so?
A: No, see above.


3) And also again can I do this based off of MAP vs. TPS for load referencing?
A: Yes, the load reference is MAP.

Mark
TurboXS
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Old 08-30-2002, 04:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS
Q&A:

1) Is there a way to just tell the stock ECU to take whatever value it wants and add +5 degrees to it?
A: No.
-That's what I thought, but I could hope right ?

Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS

4) On that same idea can I use MAP signal as load? I talked with Nathan on the phone and he made it sound like, at the moment, the only load reference is TPS, which personallY I do NOT like.
A: MAP is the main load reference. The first tuning column is for idle tuning and closed loop tuning. You can than select the TPS value at which you move from the idle/closed loop tuning column to the 9 other MAP load referenced tuning columns. So if you wanted to tune from full vacuum to full boost, you would set your TPS threshold point at 0% and you would tune from there.
-Yah I wasn't planning on touching anything below 1000rpms for idling purposes in the timing map. But fueling I won't touch anything below 0psi really.

Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS

Fueling:

1) Basically I want to let the computer do it's VERY good stoich 14.7:1 thing all the way to about 3psi (positive boost). SO can I use two of my 10 load points with one at maximum vacuum, and the other at 5psi and set those to "ECU" and those two will cover the entire vacuum-5psi range?
A: No. You can set you max vacuum and max boost and your nine load columns are equally spaced between from max vacuum to max boost. The first column is for idle/closed loop. Personally, we let the ECU do it's thing from 0-60% TPS (when the factory runs in closed loop) and switch to MAP based after that. We than tune MAP from 0psi to 18psi in 2psi increments.
-Cool that sounds pretty good then. I was mainly concerned with using MAP signal for load

Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS

2) And then I would have 8 load points left from 5psi - 22psi or so?
A: No, see above.
-I was just hoping I could get kinda greedy .

Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS

3) And also again can I do this based off of MAP vs. TPS for load referencing?
A: Yes, the load reference is MAP.

Mark
TurboXS [/b][/quote]

Thanks for the detailed reply.
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Old 08-30-2002, 04:39 PM   #10
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We need a FAQ

Rich
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Old 08-30-2002, 05:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidm_sh
Actually no. You are correct in that the stock ECU uses many things to determine load (MAP, MAF, and TPS). But the piggyback/UTEC only uses one thing for load. Up to this point I thought you had a choice between TPS or MAP. But it sounds like the "initial software release" is only going to have TPS ... or until I hear otherwise.

It is just like Cobb and TurboXS use TPS to determine load when they program the unichips and Vishnu uses MAP to determine load. Personally I think it is just better to use MAP sensor to determine load becuase then you don't have to worry about partial throttle problems with high boost and not enough fuel.

Because if you map off of TPS for load you could be at 20-30% TPS and have full boost = lean = high EGT's = bad. As compared to mapping off of MAP singal when it sees x amount of boost you get x amount of fuel accordingly. But anyway... I am rambling now.

I do know that the boost control is in fact controled with a map based off of rpm vs. TPS.
David

Let's start at the beginning as it seems you are missing some key points here. The WRX ECU uses TPS and RPM to switch between closed loop fuelling and open loop fuelling. It goes open loop at ~55-60% TPS and above and at ~5500 rpm regardless of TPS. Basically, closed loop fuelling uses the factory O2 sensor input (mainly the front one) to monitor Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). It than modifies injector on time to maintain ~14.7:1 AFR for good fuel economy and low emissions. Open loop uses fixed fuelling maps for a given load input/rpm. It runs much richer in the open loop so fuel economy is down and emissions are higher. When you drive for power, you are in open loop. When you are just cruising or zipping through town you are in closed loop most of the time.

If you run high boost (generally over ~10 psi in the WRX) while in closed loop fuel mode when AFR is maintained at 14.7:1, EGTs can skyrocket to over 1625deg F. This will happen regardless of whether your load input is MAP or TPS with the Unichip. Why? Because it's "closed loop" and the ECU will continue to modify fuelling to hit 14.7:1 AFR based on feedback from the 02 sensor. Therefore, even if MAP is your load reference and you programmed it to ADD fuel at a certain MAP value to richen it up some, during closed loop the ECU will take the fuel away over time in order to lean it back out to 14.7:1. The only way to avoid this with the Unichip is to either:
A: Keep the boost low in closed loop
OR
B: Add so much fuel that the ECU can no longer compensate for it. Your car will run like crap, however, and get horrible gas mileage to boot.

With the UTEC we manage this by having Boost programmable by TPS. Keep the boost at 10psi or less while in closed loop (less than 60% TPS) and you'll have no problem with part throttle high EGTs.

I hope this clears things up for you (and others). If not, feel free to call us to discuss further.

Mark
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Old 08-30-2002, 05:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS


David

Let's start at the beginning as it seems you are missing some key points here. The WRX ECU uses TPS and RPM to switch between closed loop fuelling and open loop fuelling. It goes open loop at ~55-60% TPS and above and at ~5500 rpm regardless of TPS. Basically, closed loop fuelling uses the factory O2 sensor input (mainly the front one) to monitor Air Fuel Ratio (AFR). It than modifies injector on time to maintain ~14.7:1 AFR for good fuel economy and low emissions. Open loop uses fixed fuelling maps for a given load input/rpm. It runs much richer in the open loop so fuel economy is down and emissions are higher. When you drive for power, you are in open loop. When you are just cruising or zipping through town you are in closed loop most of the time.

If you run high boost (generally over ~10 psi in the WRX) while in closed loop fuel mode when AFR is maintained at 14.7:1, EGTs can skyrocket to over 1625deg F. This will happen regardless of whether your load input is MAP or TPS with the Unichip. Why? Because it's "closed loop" and the ECU will continue to modify fuelling to hit 14.7:1 AFR based on feedback from the 02 sensor. Therefore, even if MAP is your load reference and you programmed it to ADD fuel at a certain MAP value to richen it up some, during closed loop the ECU will take the fuel away over time in order to lean it back out to 14.7:1. The only way to avoid this with the Unichip is to either:
A: Keep the boost low in closed loop
OR
B: Add so much fuel that the ECU can no longer compensate for it. Your car will run like crap, however, and get horrible gas mileage to boot.

With the UTEC we manage this by having Boost programmable by TPS. Keep the boost at 10psi or less while in closed loop (less than 60% TPS) and you'll have no problem with part throttle high EGTs.

I hope this clears things up for you (and others). If not, feel free to call us to discuss further.

Mark
TurboXS
Sorry I understand everything you have said it's just that my head has been in the Link for the past couple of months , which is effectively open loop operation all the time.

Also when I did have my cobb unichip on the car I NEVER experienced any high boost/lean A/F situation probably mostly due to the fact that I ran the VF22 which was quite a bit laggier than the stock TD04L . So if I wanted anything more than say 8-10psi I had to dip into the throttle quite a bit.
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Old 08-30-2002, 07:23 PM   #13
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If you are looking for a device that will add, or subtract from the ECU's timing curve a certain number of degrees, then you are looking for a device such as the e-manage, or unichip. The thing that sucks about this is that the stock ECU is very dynamic. I have a hell of a time tuning timing on the e-manage. if you add 5 degrees, the ecu will pull 7 or 8 if it senses any knock. VERY DIFFICULT TO TUNE.

That is the beauty of the UTEC. You can run a static timing curve, and tune fuel around it! That is awesome! Just like a stand alone.

Andy
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Old 08-30-2002, 07:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by BADWRX
If you are looking for a device that will add, or subtract from the ECU's timing curve a certain number of degrees, then you are looking for a device such as the e-manage, or unichip. The thing that sucks about this is that the stock ECU is very dynamic. I have a hell of a time tuning timing on the e-manage. if you add 5 degrees, the ecu will pull 7 or 8 if it senses any knock. VERY DIFFICULT TO TUNE.

That is the beauty of the UTEC. You can run a static timing curve, and tune fuel around it! That is awesome! Just like a stand alone.

Andy
Yeah I was only looking to use such a feature down in the vacuum range for increased off-boost drivability that's all. Oh trust me I know the value of static timing when under full boost .
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Old 08-30-2002, 07:27 PM   #15
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From two different messages

Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS
Fueling:

1) Basically I want to let the computer do it's VERY good stoich 14.7:1 thing all the way to about 3psi (positive boost). SO can I use two of my 10 load points with one at maximum vacuum, and the other at 5psi and set those to "ECU" and those two will cover the entire vacuum-5psi range?
A: No. You can set you max vacuum and max boost and your nine load columns are equally spaced between from max vacuum to max boost. The first column is for idle/closed loop. Personally, we let the ECU do it's thing from 0-60% TPS (when the factory runs in closed loop) and switch to MAP based after that. We than tune MAP from 0psi to 18psi in 2psi increments.
So any boost higher then 18 psi like 22psi will still use the map based on 18 psi correct?

Quote:
Originally posted by TurboXS

With the UTEC we manage this by having Boost programmable by TPS. Keep the boost at 10psi or less while in closed loop (less than 60% TPS) and you'll have no problem with part throttle high EGTs.
Is the UTEC still compatible with your HPMBC or do you need to use an ABC or no machanical BC at all with the UTEC?

Thanks,
Carlo
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Old 08-30-2002, 08:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carlo
From two different messages


Is the UTEC still compatible with your HPMBC or do you need to use an ABC or no machanical BC at all with the UTEC?

Thanks,
Carlo
I'm interested in this as well... MBCs have a reaction time SO much faster than the FBC it's gross... I mean, one blip of the throttle with an MBC I almost get FULL boost. On the FBC it usually took me about 2.5-3 seconds to hit full boost after going WOT which is ridiculous.
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Old 08-31-2002, 01:43 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by SubyRex


I'm interested in this as well... MBCs have a reaction time SO much faster than the FBC it's gross... I mean, one blip of the throttle with an MBC I almost get FULL boost. On the FBC it usually took me about 2.5-3 seconds to hit full boost after going WOT which is ridiculous.
I'm going to go into a bit more detail in the trans forum... but to give you an idea of the power potential of the UTEC (including it's boost control)

I was stalling (standing still) at the light at Great Lakes last tuesday AT 13 PSI.... the MOMENT I took my foot off that brake it was at 20 PSI... I made SO MUCH TORQUE on my final run that I not only shattered my center diff (a correct diagnosis on my part which I replaced tonight), but I ALSO GRENADED the rear differential as well... it's like a freakin maraca in there...

So... that effectively puts ProjectWRX out till I can source a suitable aftermarket replacement for a rear diff. But the boost control "response" can be programmed into the UTEC by the end user with the final "public" release of the software (in beta now)

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Old 08-31-2002, 11:37 AM   #18
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1) With all the talk on tuning and datalogging the UTEC.....what software is needed for the Palm, and is it supplied with the UTEC( also, same question...but with a laptop). Also, what about cables? Are they included?

2) And a unichip queston...If TPS threshhold is determined by TurboXS' harness, what about those who hardwired the Unichip in place, not using the harness? Since there are no PCB resistors to determine threshold, how is it actually determined?

3)Also, with a recently programed Stage 2 Unichip. Is it still necessary to do the resistor mod to the harness PCB (for TPS threshhold), or has it been incorporated into the programming(asked, not knowing the answer to question #2)?

Andy
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Old 08-31-2002, 02:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carlo
From two different messages



So any boost higher then 18 psi like 22psi will still use the map based on 18 psi correct?

Carlo,
This is correct. Once you set a max map value, everything above that is then run out of the 100% load Zone. The UTEC has provisions for a 3 bar map sensor, so in theory you could map all the way up to 30+ psi without any problems. the only thing to note is that you have 10 zones in the map sensor range, so you kind of have to pick and choose where you want your resolution.



Quote:
Originally posted by Carlo

Is the UTEC still compatible with your HPMBC or do you need to use an ABC or no machanical BC at all with the UTEC?

Thanks,
Carlo
It is compatable in the sense that you can let the HPMBC do the boost control, but in truth i ditched my HPMBC for the UTEC boost control. The Utec has the first EBC that i've found to be better than my HPMBC.

You no longer need the ABC with the UTEC.

-Nathan
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Old 09-01-2002, 10:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti



Carlo,
This is correct. Once you set a max map value, everything above that is then run out of the 100% load Zone. The UTEC has provisions for a 3 bar map sensor, so in theory you could map all the way up to 30+ psi without any problems. the only thing to note is that you have 10 zones in the map sensor range, so you kind of have to pick and choose where you want your resolution.





It is compatable in the sense that you can let the HPMBC do the boost control, but in truth i ditched my HPMBC for the UTEC boost control. The Utec has the first EBC that i've found to be better than my HPMBC.

You no longer need the ABC with the UTEC.

-Nathan
What do you put in place of the ABC? A 3/16 connector?
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Old 09-02-2002, 01:09 AM   #21
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Im confused on that as well? Do you use the stock boost controller then?
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Old 09-02-2002, 01:12 AM   #22
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The UTEC uses the stock boost control solenoid.

JD
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Old 09-02-2002, 11:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by z&cobb


What do you put in place of the ABC? A 3/16 connector?
I believe you just return the lines back to stock.

Bill
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