NA 4 banger question

GTerran · 07-07-2012, 11:52 PM

been trying to find any evidence of a 4 cylinder producing 300 hp ish while on NA. anyone know where I could look for one or am I just going to have to go forced intake.

just dreaming

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dowroa · 07-08-2012, 12:17 AM

I believe that has been talked about ad nauseum on here quite a long time ago. That was back when RSes were built to approach 300hp. What it came down to was a REALLY expensive build that might have had 300 crank, but never 300 wheel.

What is the reasoning? If you want that much power, there are plenty of cars nowadays that do that effortlessly. If that was what you were looking for, I would question the BRZ purchase.

With the newer direct injection engine, and the fact the RS thread would be much help for you, but I could scrounge it up.

- brian

GTerran · 07-08-2012, 01:21 AM

im planning on one day auto crossing the BRZ and believe I'll have to break 300 to be anything competitive. just hoping to keep the aspiration true on the car. but then again, be fun to beat the STI s at their own game :B

I'll go hunting through the RS channels, thanks for the guidance.

Calamity Jesus · 07-08-2012, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTerran

im planning on one day auto crossing the BRZ and believe I'll have to break 300 to be anything competitive. just hoping to keep the aspiration true on the car. but then again, be fun to beat the STI s at their own game :B

I'll go hunting through the RS channels, thanks for the guidance.

I'm sure you'll be a good enough driver to handle a 300hp BRZ. Why not set a real goal, 500whp BRZ in Formula1.

spaceywilly · 07-08-2012, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTerran

im planning on one day auto crossing the BRZ and believe I'll have to break 300 to be anything competitive. .

It doesn't need 300hp to be competitive. With 250hp it would have the same lb/hp as the STI. 300hp would be overkill.

xjohnx · 07-08-2012, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTerran

im planning on one day auto crossing the BRZ and believe I'll have to break 300 to be anything competitive. just hoping to keep the aspiration true on the car. but then again, be fun to beat the STI s at their own game :B

I'll go hunting through the RS channels, thanks for the guidance.

what class are you planning on running in that you feel the BRZ is going to need over 300 horsepower to be competitive?? And how do you plan on reaching that power while staying within the rules of your class?

Upgrade driver first. Car later.

Keshav · 07-08-2012, 12:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB-KBaevPqM

More power is always better in autocross if you want the LULZ.

xjohnx · 07-08-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keshav

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB-KBaevPqM

More power is always better in autocross if you want the LULZ.

Yikes, who approved that course design?

shikataganai · 07-08-2012, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjohnx

what class are you planning on running in that you feel the BRZ is going to need over 300 horsepower to be competitive?? And how do you plan on reaching that power while staying within the rules of your class?

Upgrade driver first. Car later.

SM?

"Time only dorifto class" perhaps?

GTerran · 07-08-2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keshav

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB-KBaevPqM

More power is always better in autocross if you want the LULZ.

I guess 250 would be good enough until I get much better :P

xjohnx · 07-08-2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTerran

I guess 250 would be good enough until I get much better :P

200 is plenty. They have classes for a reason.

Calamity Jesus · 07-08-2012, 05:47 PM

Gotta love the "someday I'll autocross" types. First I'm going to mod it into a showcar and then everyone there will know I mean business, bro!

You own a BRZ? Fantastic. Take it to an autocross this month... before you ruin it with pointless mods.

Burnall4 · 07-08-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTerran

im planning on one day auto crossing the BRZ and believe I'll have to break 300 to be anything competitive. just hoping to keep the aspiration true on the car. but then again, be fun to beat the STI s at their own game :B....

GTerran · 07-08-2012, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

Gotta love the "someday I'll autocross" types. First I'm going to mod it into a showcar and then everyone there will know I mean business, bro!

You own a BRZ? Fantastic. Take it to an autocross this month... before you ruin it with pointless mods.

actually, the someday was more to the line of 'when I don't suck at driving' but then again, going to do eng mods one day. maybe after i PAY IT OFF :P

Gotta love the "going to poke at someone without knowing their backgrounds" types. First off, Im new to the entire boxer 4 cylinder game, my background is is 600+ cubic in drag cars, so my bad if I don't know the ins and outs of this sacred 'autocross' or exactly how the classes are setup. I love my brz, but the 200hp on something that has this great of a driving setup makes for a hard pinch point that I'm trying to get around in a fashion that I'm used to, more power.

Burnall4 · 07-08-2012, 06:47 PM

We are not poking fun at you...well ok maybe I am a little. And I understand that everyone is a keyboard cowboy and we don't know everyones background. But hey I went through the flaming too. I came from drag cars (2000hp) but I think the problem is, you might be missing what the BRZ was designed for, what the intentions the designers had in mind when they designed and built this...its about handling.

As a friend put it to us this way recently (who is a really successful road racer)

"This is the best handling car I have ever driven with fenders" in the same conversation "if you can't point this car and have it go where you want while driving at 100% its not the cars fault...its yours"

The BRZ is about handling, not power...people will make kits for FI later on, but for now enjoy the car, learn how to drive it, keep it in the power band, and how to turn, you will rethink the HP.

Take it from a guy who hears this all the time on the track (I road race motorcycles) my answer is this...I take a Suzuki SV and lap the guy on the 600 who complains its' his bike not him...(this is in context of a track day, and me coaching)

jprice130 · 07-08-2012, 08:17 PM

Like others have said, if you think there's any chance you want to autocross your BRZ any time soon, keep it stock and run it a few times first. You'll be glad you did. I've autocrossed my BRZ twice now and it's pretty dang awesome totally stock.

spaceywilly · 07-08-2012, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTerran

actually, the someday was more to the line of 'when I don't suck at driving' but then again, going to do eng mods one day. maybe after i PAY IT OFF :P

You don't have to get good at driving before you go to an autocross. The whole point of autocross is to drive your car at the limit in a wall and traffic free environment (well... mostly wall free, apparently). At the beginning your mistakes will be obvious, and you will be able to correct them as the day goes on. It's only once you stop making these obvious mistakes that you need to start taking classes to find the less obvious mistake you're making, and to learn driving styles that may not be intuitive. The great thing about the BRZ only having 200hp is that you can make these mistakes without it biting you in the ass. Then, once you get the hang of controlling it with just 200hp, you can add power and you won't be doing pirouettes all day.

GTerran · 07-09-2012, 12:51 AM

like I said before, I need a **** load of seat time before I do much of anything. only 'mod' im looking to do in the near future is upgrade to 8.5x17 215 all around. I hate the OEMs that are on it.

and to be honest, cali really sucks for tuning cars it would appear.

GTerran · 07-09-2012, 12:57 AM

like I said before, I need a **** load of seat time before I do much of anything. only 'mod' im looking to do in the near future is upgrade to 8.5x17 215 all around. I hate the OEMs that are on it.

and to be honest, cali really sucks for tuning cars it would appear.

very valid points Burnall4, Jprice130, spaceywilly

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceywilly

You don't have to get good at driving before you go to an autocross.

oh, if you only new how much I suck at 'real' driving :P but, that is what practice is all about. just hope I don't pull a corvette

hmm... something screwed up in the edit... wish I could delete post..

Calamity Jesus · 07-09-2012, 12:26 PM

Seat time is the reason autocross exists. It's for learning.. you will become a better driver and as long as you aren't a total bonehead you aren't going to damage anything while autocrossing. Do it ASAP. Don't put it on a pedestal... just go do it. It'll cost you $40 and half a day to figure out what autocross is really all about. Talk to someone in your local club about your newness and ask them for help. Most people are very eager to help out a new autocrosser and they'll show you the ropes.

We see this a lot at autocrosses.. people act like autocross is some big deal and delay going.. and make excuses like "my car isn't ready". They'll mod and mod and mod and then they'll show up and find out that their honda civic is in a class suited for supercars because of their mods and they'll be one of the slowest cars all day.

Newbs are always slow.. autocross, and driving in general, is about the driver's skill, not the car's components. Of the newbs, it's usually the ones in the highly modified cars that never come back because they embarras themselves by being outrun by a stock family sedan. If you want to learn to drive fast.. start autocrossing sooner rather than later. You'll learn more about your car in two or three autocrosses than you will in years of driving on the street. If you are extremely slow, don't be embarrassed.. keep going back until you're fast.

To avoid damaging your car do the following:

Make sure the engine is completely warm before driving on the course (once it's warm you can ride the rev limiter without causing any damage)
Remember that if you are losing control and going off-course, put both feet in (this means to put both feet down to the left.. ie: on the brake and clutch or both on the brake in an automatic) If the course is designed properly you will slide to a safe stop. The corvette in the video that hit the wall tried to save it.. .. if he'd put both feet in as soon as the car started to step out on him it would likely be in one piece. There's no shame in spinning out at an autocross... spins are usually met with cheers. Drifting intentionally (or trying to save a bad slide) are generally frowned upon.
If you're confused about where the course goes.. drive slowly. There's nothing wrong with driving slowly through the course to learn it. You'll be come more accustomed to memorizing the courses as you autocross more.
Make sure your lug nuts are tight before you drive out on course. It's amazing how often people forget this.

KC · 07-09-2012, 12:53 PM

Look, everyone has to start somewhere. It's better to jump in with both feet right now, and learn there are rules and regulations for different cars and different classes.

If you *really* know about drag racing, then you'll understand this... Many 'simple' things one wants to do to a car will put them into a harder class against cars that are modified to the limits of the class. It applies to (classed) drag racing and also with autox (even down to changing the width/size of the wheel).

You can go with what you got today. There's no reason to wait. You *WILL* be slow, no matter what you drive. Why? There's a whole lot going on in every 60 second run for one to process. Until you have your brain filter in place to predict, analize and adapt to the important parts, and let pure reaction handle the rest of the stuff, you're going to be slow.

The fast guys go out and are fast without even thinking about it. Why? They have the experience to know the certain key elements that will dictate where the most time won't be lost, and the reaction time to make super fast minor adjustments, and can drive solely on feel, knowing what the car is doing, feeling it.

To show you what the difference is, go to an event. Run in the event. Ask some of those that compete at a national level if you can ride with them in their car (or some regions let them drive your car even).

If they take your car out for a run, your mind will get blown on how they can be 8-10+ seconds faster in your car. I can say that because I've DONE IT to many people, driving 7/10s of what the car is capable of.

--kC

xjohnx · 07-09-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

Seat time is the reason autocross exists. It's for learning.. you will become a better driver and as long as you aren't a total bonehead you aren't going to damage anything while autocrossing. Do it ASAP. Don't put it on a pedestal... just go do it. It'll cost you $40 and half a day to figure out what autocross is really all about. Talk to someone in your local club about your newness and ask them for help. Most people are very eager to help out a new autocrosser and they'll show you the ropes.

We see this a lot at autocrosses.. people act like autocross is some big deal and delay going.. and make excuses like "my car isn't ready". They'll mod and mod and mod and then they'll show up and find out that their honda civic is in a class suited for supercars because of their mods and they'll be one of the slowest cars all day.

Newbs are always slow.. autocross, and driving in general, is about the driver's skill, not the car's components. Of the newbs, it's usually the ones in the highly modified cars that never come back because they embarras themselves by being outrun by a stock family sedan. If you want to learn to drive fast.. start autocrossing sooner rather than later. You'll learn more about your car in two or three autocrosses than you will in years of driving on the street. If you are extremely slow, don't be embarrassed.. keep going back until you're fast.

To avoid damaging your car do the following:

Make sure the engine is completely warm before driving on the course (once it's warm you can ride the rev limiter without causing any damage)
Remember that if you are losing control and going off-course, put both feet in (this means to put both feet down to the left.. ie: on the brake and clutch or both on the brake in an automatic) If the course is designed properly you will slide to a safe stop. The corvette in the video that hit the wall tried to save it.. .. if he'd put both feet in as soon as the car started to step out on him it would likely be in one piece. There's no shame in spinning out at an autocross... spins are usually met with cheers. Drifting intentionally (or trying to save a bad slide) are generally frowned upon.
If you're confused about where the course goes.. drive slowly. There's nothing wrong with driving slowly through the course to learn it. You'll be come more accustomed to memorizing the courses as you autocross more.
Make sure your lug nuts are tight before you drive out on course. It's amazing how often people forget this.

The only thing I would add to your list is to make sure you show up early enough and walk the course (preferably with a veteran). This will do wonders to help you understand the flow of the course and it might just save you from getting lost when you're out there at speed.

CopperTopNWOR · 07-09-2012, 02:10 PM

As they all have said. Don't change even your wheels/tires for autocross. Just changing your wheels bumps you a class unless the change is the exact same wheel size.

I actually wish I had done some autocross in my previous stock Honda Civic before I bought the WRX. You have a lot less time to learn to drive the course and learn how to position the car in a faster vehicle. The 200 hp BRZ is probably the perfect car to learn Autocross in. I actually was very close to trading my year old WRX for a BRZ just because of Autocross.

The only thing you might consider doing for autocross is if you like it after the first time, go buy a second set of the 17x7 wheels in the correct offset and put a set of tires just for autocross on them that way you don't wear down your normal drive tires wierdly. That is probably the only "mod" I would consider on the BRZ.

Now, down the road you may end up deciding you want to do more, but by then you will know the rules and know what you can get away with if you really love autocross.

shikataganai · 07-09-2012, 03:27 PM

On the other hand, if you really want to mod but also think you'll do autocross, sticking to the STX ruleset wouldn't be a bad thing (or that restrictive at all, really):

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/..._Rules_May.pdf

Pages 81-90 are those that are relevant.

xjohnx · 07-09-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shikataganai

On the other hand, if you really want to mod but also think you'll do autocross, sticking to the STX ruleset wouldn't be a bad thing (or that restrictive at all, really):

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/..._Rules_May.pdf

Pages 81-90 are those that are relevant.

Is it going to be an STX car? I know there was some back and forth on roadraceautox about that, and the 240SX has been moved from STX to STC apparently. Perhaps the BRZ ends up in STC as well?

07-07-2012, 11:52 PM	#1
GTerran Scooby Newbie Member#: 324533 Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: San Diego, CA Vehicle: 2013 BRZ Pearl White	NA 4 banger question been trying to find any evidence of a 4 cylinder producing 300 hp ish while on NA. anyone know where I could look for one or am I just going to have to go forced intake. just dreaming * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

07-09-2012, 12:26 PM	#20
Calamity Jesus Scooby Guru Member#: 44501 Join Date: Oct 2003 Chapter/Region: South East Location: in a minefield of caddishness. Vehicle: 1984 "Skeletor from "He-Man"	Seat time is the reason autocross exists. It's for learning.. you will become a better driver and as long as you aren't a total bonehead you aren't going to damage anything while autocrossing. Do it ASAP. Don't put it on a pedestal... just go do it. It'll cost you $40 and half a day to figure out what autocross is really all about. Talk to someone in your local club about your newness and ask them for help. Most people are very eager to help out a new autocrosser and they'll show you the ropes. We see this a lot at autocrosses.. people act like autocross is some big deal and delay going.. and make excuses like "my car isn't ready". They'll mod and mod and mod and then they'll show up and find out that their honda civic is in a class suited for supercars because of their mods and they'll be one of the slowest cars all day. Newbs are always slow.. autocross, and driving in general, is about the driver's skill, not the car's components. Of the newbs, it's usually the ones in the highly modified cars that never come back because they embarras themselves by being outrun by a stock family sedan. If you want to learn to drive fast.. start autocrossing sooner rather than later. You'll learn more about your car in two or three autocrosses than you will in years of driving on the street. If you are extremely slow, don't be embarrassed.. keep going back until you're fast. To avoid damaging your car do the following: Make sure the engine is completely warm before driving on the course (once it's warm you can ride the rev limiter without causing any damage) Remember that if you are losing control and going off-course, put both feet in (this means to put both feet down to the left.. ie: on the brake and clutch or both on the brake in an automatic) If the course is designed properly you will slide to a safe stop. The corvette in the video that hit the wall tried to save it.. .. if he'd put both feet in as soon as the car started to step out on him it would likely be in one piece. There's no shame in spinning out at an autocross... spins are usually met with cheers. Drifting intentionally (or trying to save a bad slide) are generally frowned upon. If you're confused about where the course goes.. drive slowly. There's nothing wrong with driving slowly through the course to learn it. You'll be come more accustomed to memorizing the courses as you autocross more. Make sure your lug nuts are tight before you drive out on course. It's amazing how often people forget this. Last edited by Calamity Jesus; 07-09-2012 at 12:35 PM.

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07-08-2012, 12:17 AM	#2
dowroa Scooby Specialist Member#: 17498 Join Date: Apr 2002 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Durham, NC Vehicle: No More Subarus :( Only a truck, for now. ;)	I believe that has been talked about ad nauseum on here quite a long time ago. That was back when RSes were built to approach 300hp. What it came down to was a REALLY expensive build that might have had 300 crank, but never 300 wheel. What is the reasoning? If you want that much power, there are plenty of cars nowadays that do that effortlessly. If that was what you were looking for, I would question the BRZ purchase. With the newer direct injection engine, and the fact the RS thread would be much help for you, but I could scrounge it up. - brian

07-08-2012, 01:21 AM	#3
GTerran Scooby Newbie Member#: 324533 Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: San Diego, CA Vehicle: 2013 BRZ Pearl White	im planning on one day auto crossing the BRZ and believe I'll have to break 300 to be anything competitive. just hoping to keep the aspiration true on the car. but then again, be fun to beat the STI s at their own game :B I'll go hunting through the RS channels, thanks for the guidance.

07-08-2012, 05:47 PM	#12
Calamity Jesus Scooby Guru Member#: 44501 Join Date: Oct 2003 Chapter/Region: South East Location: in a minefield of caddishness. Vehicle: 1984 "Skeletor from "He-Man"	Gotta love the "someday I'll autocross" types. First I'm going to mod it into a showcar and then everyone there will know I mean business, bro! You own a BRZ? Fantastic. Take it to an autocross this month... before you ruin it with pointless mods.

07-08-2012, 06:47 PM	#15
Burnall4 Scooby Newbie Member#: 35518 Join Date: Apr 2003 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Richmond/Fairfax Vehicle: 2005 WRX STI PSM	We are not poking fun at you...well ok maybe I am a little. And I understand that everyone is a keyboard cowboy and we don't know everyones background. But hey I went through the flaming too. I came from drag cars (2000hp) but I think the problem is, you might be missing what the BRZ was designed for, what the intentions the designers had in mind when they designed and built this...its about handling. As a friend put it to us this way recently (who is a really successful road racer) "This is the best handling car I have ever driven with fenders" in the same conversation "if you can't point this car and have it go where you want while driving at 100% its not the cars fault...its yours" The BRZ is about handling, not power...people will make kits for FI later on, but for now enjoy the car, learn how to drive it, keep it in the power band, and how to turn, you will rethink the HP. Take it from a guy who hears this all the time on the track (I road race motorcycles) my answer is this...I take a Suzuki SV and lap the guy on the 600 who complains its' his bike not him...(this is in context of a track day, and me coaching)

07-08-2012, 08:17 PM	#16
jprice130 Scooby Newbie Member#: 288225 Join Date: Jul 2011 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Harrisburg, NC Vehicle: 2013 BRZ DGM	Like others have said, if you think there's any chance you want to autocross your BRZ any time soon, keep it stock and run it a few times first. You'll be glad you did. I've autocrossed my BRZ twice now and it's pretty dang awesome totally stock.

07-09-2012, 12:51 AM	#18
GTerran Scooby Newbie Member#: 324533 Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: San Diego, CA Vehicle: 2013 BRZ Pearl White	like I said before, I need a **** load of seat time before I do much of anything. only 'mod' im looking to do in the near future is upgrade to 8.5x17 215 all around. I hate the OEMs that are on it. and to be honest, cali really sucks for tuning cars it would appear.

07-09-2012, 12:53 PM	#21
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: SE Mass/RI Vehicle: 2013 Crosstrek XV 00 Honda S2000	Look, everyone has to start somewhere. It's better to jump in with both feet right now, and learn there are rules and regulations for different cars and different classes. If you really know about drag racing, then you'll understand this... Many 'simple' things one wants to do to a car will put them into a harder class against cars that are modified to the limits of the class. It applies to (classed) drag racing and also with autox (even down to changing the width/size of the wheel). You can go with what you got today. There's no reason to wait. You WILL be slow, no matter what you drive. Why? There's a whole lot going on in every 60 second run for one to process. Until you have your brain filter in place to predict, analize and adapt to the important parts, and let pure reaction handle the rest of the stuff, you're going to be slow. The fast guys go out and are fast without even thinking about it. Why? They have the experience to know the certain key elements that will dictate where the most time won't be lost, and the reaction time to make super fast minor adjustments, and can drive solely on feel, knowing what the car is doing, feeling it. To show you what the difference is, go to an event. Run in the event. Ask some of those that compete at a national level if you can ride with them in their car (or some regions let them drive your car even). If they take your car out for a run, your mind will get blown on how they can be 8-10+ seconds faster in your car. I can say that because I've DONE IT to many people, driving 7/10s of what the car is capable of. --kC

07-09-2012, 02:10 PM	#23
CopperTopNWOR Scooby Specialist Member#: 295724 Join Date: Sep 2011 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: NW Ohio Vehicle: 2011 WRX 5DR DGM	As they all have said. Don't change even your wheels/tires for autocross. Just changing your wheels bumps you a class unless the change is the exact same wheel size. I actually wish I had done some autocross in my previous stock Honda Civic before I bought the WRX. You have a lot less time to learn to drive the course and learn how to position the car in a faster vehicle. The 200 hp BRZ is probably the perfect car to learn Autocross in. I actually was very close to trading my year old WRX for a BRZ just because of Autocross. The only thing you might consider doing for autocross is if you like it after the first time, go buy a second set of the 17x7 wheels in the correct offset and put a set of tires just for autocross on them that way you don't wear down your normal drive tires wierdly. That is probably the only "mod" I would consider on the BRZ. Now, down the road you may end up deciding you want to do more, but by then you will know the rules and know what you can get away with if you really love autocross.

07-09-2012, 03:27 PM	#24
shikataganai Scooby Specialist Member#: 92634 Join Date: Aug 2005	On the other hand, if you really want to mod but also think you'll do autocross, sticking to the STX ruleset wouldn't be a bad thing (or that restrictive at all, really): http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/..._Rules_May.pdf Pages 81-90 are those that are relevant.