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Old 01-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
The brown does look better, but the token Carbon Fiber dash is just too forced.
Agreed. Carbon accents are either something you do all or none of. Token pieces here or there makes it look like you were confused as to what you like.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:40 AM   #177
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Not sure how I feel about it. I don't hate it, but overall the design seems a little busy, and hard to love. Certainly more aggressive than any recent Vette.

For example: what's with that "flying buttress" going up the passenger side of the center console to the top of the dash? Yes, it makes the cockpit driver-centric, but almost too much; it's like a wall between the driver and passenger.

And that red interior is going to look laughably dated in about 2 years, after the "look at me" new hotness shine has worn off. Much better in the subdued "normal" grey/brown colors.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:40 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post

This would be the case if I saw the epitome of race engineering using them (f1 is the benchmark for the best tech and design in engineering prowess) but sadly they don't, for good reason. It's a hack design that works just well enough but not as well as it could.
F1 doesn't use coilovers either...
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:45 AM   #179
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F1 doesn't use coilovers either...
Not to mention that F1 suspension design is hugely compromised due to packaging constraints & aero concerns that have absolutely no place/bearing on a closed-wheel road car.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:48 AM   #180
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I wonder if the Camber curve plots are available to see how "Outdated" this suspension really is. Especially compared to "those" cars that out perform it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:58 AM   #181
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F1 doesn't use coilovers either...
No slinky shaped springs around a pole is bad! Every car should come with Teins!
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:04 PM   #182
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F1 doesn't use coilovers either...
Actually....


Doesn't matter where they're positioned. The reason they're in=board like that is because the aero of that being out-board is terrible.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:05 PM   #183
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Not to mention that F1 suspension design is hugely compromised due to packaging constraints & aero concerns that have absolutely no place/bearing on a closed-wheel road car.
Agreed, would be much less beneficial to have the extra arm parts just to get the coils inboard like f1, but they still use coils (and double wishbone).
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:15 PM   #184
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Lol at all the haterz....the styling isn't a "home-run" (it looks more GT-R'ish than Ferrari'ish) but its all functional. If you remember the C5 interior (and to a lesser extent the C6) you can't help but say thanks to GM for giving the vette a real interior finally! And if the pricing holds true ~50K (they said if you can afford the C6 you'll be able to afford the C7) it'll be another hit for sure.

Also interested in what kinda mileage it'll eek out with the cyclinder deactivation and skip shift (which would be the first thing I removed if I bought one lol)
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:20 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
I knew that already... And originally yes it was a truck leaf spring, just turned horizontally.



Not.



Then why doesn't every super car that out-performs the vette use these?



Indeed, derp for me. Still need coilovers.



This would be the case if I saw the epitome of race engineering using them (f1 is the benchmark for the best tech and design in engineering prowess) but sadly they don't, for good reason. It's a hack design that works just well enough but not as well as it could.
Yeah.. a hack design that requires more engineering and manufacturing expense than the equivalent coil spring. You're being obtuse.

Edit: Copy/paste from Wikipedia:
Quote:
Advantages
  • Less unsprung weight. Coil springs contribute to unsprung weight; the less there is, the more quickly the wheel can respond at a given spring rate.
  • Less weight. The C4 Corvette's composite front leaf weighed 1/3 as much as the pair of conventional coil springs it would replace. Volvo reported that the single composite leaf spring used in the rear suspension of the 960 Wagon had the same mass as just one of the two springs it replaced.[10]
  • Weight is positioned lower. Coil springs and the associated chassis hard mounts raise the center of gravity of the car.
  • Superior wear characteristics. The Corvette's composite leaf springs last longer than coils, though in a car as light as the Corvette, the difference is not especially significant. No composite Corvette leaf has ever been replaced due to fatigue failure, though steel leafs from 1963 to 1983 have been. As of 1980, the composite spring was an option on the C3.
  • As used on the Corvette, ride height can be adjusted by changing the length of the end links connecting the leaf to the suspension arms. This allows small changes in ride height with minimal effects on the spring rate.
  • Also as used on the late model Corvette, the leaf spring acts as an anti-roll bar, allowing for smaller and lighter bars than if the car were equipped with coil springs. As implemented on the C3 and C4 rearend with a rigid central mount, the anti-roll effect does not occur.
Disadvantages
  • Packaging can be problematic; the leaf must span from one side of the car to the other. This can limit applications where the drivetrain, or another part, is in the way.
  • Materials expense. Steel coils are commodity items; a single composite leaf spring costs more than two of them.
  • Design complexity. Composite monoleafs allow for considerable variety in shape, thickness, and materials. They are inherently more expensive to design, particularly in performance applications.
  • Cost of modification. Due to the specialized design and packaging, changing spring rates would require a custom unit. Coil springs in various sizes and rates are available very inexpensively.
  • Susceptibility to damage. Engine fluids and exhaust modifications like cat-back removal might weaken or destroy composite springs over time. The leaf spring is more susceptible to heat related damage than conventional steel springs.
  • Perception. Like pushrod engines, the leaf spring has a stigma that overshadows its advantages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Da...nt_suspensions

Last edited by Calamity Jesus; 01-14-2013 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:27 PM   #186
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Black plastic vents all over? Those cheap ass looking vents wreck the lines.
+1

Looks very busy, very cheap.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:30 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
F1 doesn't use coilovers either...
Sure they do, they're jsut mounted inboard.

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Originally Posted by ForceFed4 View Post
Not to mention that F1 suspension design is hugely compromised due to packaging constraints & aero concerns that have absolutely no place/bearing on a closed-wheel road car.
Actually, the most exotic road cars use similar inboard-mounted push (mainly) or pull rod setups. You still get benefits: centralized weight distribution, less unsprung weight, teh ability to use smaller (shorter-stroke) shocks and springs (via motion ratio of the bell cranks) etc. on a closed-wheel car. Just not the aero benefits you get with an open-wheel application.

It's just much more expensive, harder to package, etc. So you only see it on (generally mid-engined) exotics.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:30 PM   #188
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It's a hack design that works just well enough but not as well as it could.
This, coming from a Subaru enthusiast?
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:32 PM   #189
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Yeah, zzyzx.. everyone knows the MacPherson strut is the epitome of modern tech and engineering... you especially.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:33 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
This would be the case if I saw the epitome of race engineering using them (f1 is the benchmark for the best tech and design in engineering prowess) but sadly they don't, for good reason. It's a hack design that works just well enough but not as well as it could.
This is your opinion. It is obviously the opinion of the massive engineering brain within GM's engineering base that a transverse polymer leaf spring is sufficient to meet the performance targets for this vehicle. If the leaf spring were really holding the car back I'm pretty sure GM would find a way to replace it with a different form of spring. Don't assume your personal opinion is smarter than that of the combined intelligence and lessons-learned database of an automotive manufacturer who has built millions of different cars with thousands of different suspension setups.

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Also interested in what kinda mileage it'll eek out with the cyclinder deactivation and skip shift (which would be the first thing I removed if I bought one lol)
Aren't they advertising 28mpg highway for the C7 when they released the data for the new LT1 engine? I believe my father gets 28-30mpg highway in his old C5 which was rated around 26mpg highway. I expect the 7spd will use the same 0.5 ratio for 7th and the other 6 gears just get tighter. Skip-shift isn't anything new. It started in the C5 IIRC. Easiest way to avoid the skip-shift interference is to simply add more throttle. Blip and it opens up the gate allowing you to use 2 or 3 instead of jumping to 4.

Anywhoo...I expect they'll be around 30mpg highway.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:34 PM   #191
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This, coming from a Subaru enthusiast?
I never said I liked mcpherson struts. Look at my car that I actually own :P. I just like these forums and really liked subaru for a while. The gobstopper hooked me.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:36 PM   #192
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Actually, the most exotic road cars use similar inboard-mounted push (mainly) or pull rod setups.
They also don't usually have the R&D budget of Chevrolet to develop anything better, and their cars are maintenance intensive. The idea that Chevrolet went through the trouble to develop a composite leaf spring suspension for the vette because it was cheaper or easier is just..

well..

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Old 01-14-2013, 12:37 PM   #193
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This is your opinion. It is obviously the opinion of the massive engineering brain within GM's engineering base that a transverse polymer leaf spring is sufficient to meet the performance targets for this vehicle. If the leaf spring were really holding the car back I'm pretty sure GM would find a way to replace it with a different form of spring. Don't assume your personal opinion is smarter than that of the combined intelligence and lessons-learned database of an automotive manufacturer who has built millions of different cars with thousands of different suspension setups.
What about the hundreds of other manufacturers who make better cars that disagree with them. Hell, even if the vette race teams used them, I'd be happy to at least see their design is stood by, but they all swap, and I doubt just because it can be adjusted easier... What race team has anything designed around practicality versus better performance?

Quote:
Anywhoo...I expect they'll be around 30mpg highway.
Beating my s2000's MPG with over 3x the displacement lol. Go go long gears.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:39 PM   #194
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They also don't usually have the R&D budget of Chevrolet to develop anything better, and their cars are maintenance intensive. The idea that Chevrolet went through the trouble to develop a composite leaf spring suspension for the vette because it was cheaper or easier is just..

well..
Fully agree. I was just responding to the part about inboard suspension "having no place" in closed-wheeled cars. Of course they do. It's still beneficial, but expensive and hard to package.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:40 PM   #195
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What about the hundreds of other manufacturers who make better cars that disagree with them. Hell, even if the vette race teams used them, I'd be happy to at least see their design is stood by, but they all swap, and I doubt just because it can be adjusted easier... What race team has anything designed around practicality versus better performance?
The reasons the professional race teams use coilovers has been discussed. If you can provide anything to cite reasons that a weekend warrior or street driver would benefit from coilovers over the standard leaf spring setup than please share them.. otherwise you're just making baseless assumptions.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:44 PM   #196
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The idea that Chevrolet went through the trouble to develop a composite leaf spring suspension for the vette because it was cheaper or easier is just..
Exactly. The leaf spring costs more to develop & costs more to produce, it seems pretty obvious that something makes GM continue to use it. Maybe, <gasp>, it's better. No, no, that can't be it, our resident NASIOC engineers know more than GM engineers .
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:47 PM   #197
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Beating my s2000's MPG with over 3x the displacement lol. Go go long gears.
Which would be harder topull-off with a lower-displacement DOHC engine, I might add.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:53 PM   #198
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The reasons the professional race teams use coilovers has been discussed. If you can provide anything to cite reasons that a weekend warrior or street driver would benefit from coilovers over the standard leaf spring setup than please share them.. otherwise you're just making baseless assumptions.
I can't even provide reasons for why they would benefit from coils over mcpherson's... Then again I can't provide a good reason for a larger displacement engine either. Weekend warrior is someone who wants to go out and have fun pushing a car to the limits with no intent to actually win anything.

Still doesn't mean it's not better. Can you provide evidence to back up what you say as to the reason race teams use coils is simply because it's easier to adjust?

The evidence I provide for coils being better is the fact that probably every race team, which have more research dedicated to specifically the purpose of race driving than the showroom stock vette, coupled with someone like red bull and ferrari's f1 teams (some of the most astronomical budgets on R&D) as well as plenty of other god awful expensive exotic manufacturers (porsche probably has more experience and more R&D budget, especially considering how long they stretch their chassis') choose coil.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:59 PM   #199
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Can you provide evidence to back up what you say as to the reason race teams use coils is simply because it's easier to adjust?
Yeah, common sense. Read his post on the benefits and drawbacks. The drawbacks clearly point to coils being better from an adjustability/cost standpoint.

Can you even corner-weight a car running the leaf spring (well, without some kind of adjustable mechanism altering the effective-length of the leaf spring)?


Can you get leaf springs in the nearly limitless sizes and ratings you can industry-standard 2.5" coils?

It is no secret while the leaf spring gets dumped for heavily tracked/race cars. It simply gives them the abilty to more quickly and cost-effectively alter the suspension. In addition to providing the abilty to adjust left to right.

That being said, the OE setup is a slick piece of engineering that works quite well.

Last edited by SoapBox; 01-14-2013 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:24 PM   #200
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Actually....
I knew I should have added the words of (inline verticle). In truth though, it's the multi-lobbed Bell cranks and pullrods that make them what they are.
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