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Old 09-01-2012, 12:34 PM   #26
stang352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
First of all I don't have time to waste monitoring internet forums. I am busy running a business and assisting my customers.
Nor do you have time for paying customers that made several attempts to rectify the issue with you without any 3rd party involvement at the time!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
Second...when a customer confronts me claiming that a rival shop (one with a negative history associated) has mysteriously found issues with a short block that was purchased some 18 months prior and never ran what should my reaction be?
Since I have not disclosed “The Rival” shop you clearly state as having a negative history, this goes to show you the depth and severity of this issue. Are you just a compulsive liar that believes in your own fantasy? It must have taken you this long to respond to this issue since you had to convince yourself of your own BS. Jeeez!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
I asked the customer to send back the short block so we can evaluate his claims and rectify any issues. He declined. I asked the customer to send the short block to an independent expert to support his claims. That didn't work either. I offered to refund the customer in the entirety if he sent back the shortblock.. did not even have to be reassembled. He declined. The customer wanted me to refund him a large portion of the short block cost on the word of a rival shop and still keep the short block. That wasn't going to happen. At that point it was very obvious the conversation was going nowhere so yes, I hung up on him.
So after several months of waiting and NO response from you or Manley even after I made several follow-up calls to you for a status with no call backs from Rallispec, I took matters into my own hands just like anyone else would in my situation. What was I suppose to do since we had a motor that would have imploded. I am not in the business of paying for a very expensive paperweight and waiting for it to magically repair itself. I was trying to resolve this matter between Manley, Rallispec and myself with out any third parties. Unfortunately, you went completely dark on me with no resolution for a well paying customer.

You understood that since I was forced to take ownership of your mess, that I had progressed in the eradication of all the flaws and defects that were uncovered. Sending you all the components was not an option since things were in motion to be substantially completed within a two-weeks of when we talked. How convenient for you to make such a supported response at this point. I waited long enough at this point for you to support me in this matter with no customer support until things were escalated. Is this how you operate as a business?!? All I was asking for was for you to take some accountability and provide a little retribution to ease the pain that I have encountered because of your F%^$ up (e.g. assembly/clearance labor reimbursed [5-10 hrs only] as stated on the phone. It could have been of the cost and I would have settled since I was willing to take some ownership of this mess you served me.).

Dave - This whole matter could have been rectified by you when we originally discussed this potential Manley issue. I even offered to send you the shortblock for investigating the matter at hand. You preferred to speak with Manley instead of taking a professional look at the shortlblock like an engine builder would. I do not get this logic! I would have obviously payed for this service to get to the bottom of this.

BTW - You never suggested to send the block to an independent expert for inspection nor would that have mattered at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
I don't know who made these measurements, what their skills are, the equipment they were using, the conditions under which they were making those measurements, or the potential bias that person might have to want to skew the measurements. Since I do not have the parts and never received the parts after these claims were made I cannot comment and should not be expected to comment. These are unsubstantiated claims that are being made here.

As for the balancing...anyone with any knowledge is going to say who cares about the total rod weights. What are the reciprocating masses and what are the rotating masses as they were distributed across the crankshaft? Without this information what is the point we are discussing? I will say that our first priority is to find a static balance with the minimum of material removed for obvious reasons. This means match weighting parts first. Second we remove material from the piston reinforcing struts if necessary to bring the reciprocating weights in balance. And only as a last resort do we remove material from the rod. Removing material especially from the big end will void most rod manufacturer's warranty. Of course if I were to have ground on all the rods to make their total weights in perfect harmony and then the rod broke you'd still be trashing me here right?

And bearing witness marks? I have no clue what you are talking about. We measure the bore, measure the journal, and measure the bearing thicknesses in order to calculate the oil clearance.
You obviously do not know how to balance a Subaru engine! First you state in so many posts that it is unnecessary for a street engine. Then you say that the total weight has nothing to do with reciprocating mass. Then you say that you remove material from the pistons. You did none of those things for me!! There was no material removed from anything AND my balancing guy had to remove quite a bit. I have the card and I can post the actual amount of weight that had to be moved to properly balance the engine. Subaru engines don't have counterweights. In V and inline engines the crankshaft has counterweights that equal the reciprocating weight of the rod and piston. We've all seen the big lobes on a crankshaft before. Those lobes/counterweights are not found on a Subaru crankshaft. The Subaru crank is balanced to itself. So it only has thin counterweights that equal the weight of the journal on the opposite side. In a Subaru, the counterweight is the opposite rod and piston. So, yes the total weights have to be the same, in addition to the reciprocating weights of the rods.

You are full of it!!! Jeez!!! There is no doubt in my mind especially now that you have no integrity & credibility when it comes building a subaru engine - doesn't it concern you at all!! Your logic is constantly contradicting itself publicly and you are certainly not following through on the delivery of what you convey/commit to.

Here is how it is supposed to go:
1. You weight the piston with wrist pin. Bring all pistons down to the lightest piston to match weight. If the wrist pins are different weights you can mix and match the pins to get them as close to the same as possible. He didn't do that. The pistons were off by quite a bit.
2. You weight the rods with a special scale. First you get total weight. Then you weight the big end in a fixture that holds the wrist pin. This gives you the reciprocating weight. Then you remove material as required to get the split weights and the total weights the same. This was not done either.

So I have to ask: how did you balance this engine? There was no material removed from anything, yet you claim that you got the reciprocating mass the same.....BS!!!

Here is a little lesson for the Rallispec Engine Builder since there are obvious gaps in their delivery and understanding:

Checking clearances:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...e/viewall.html

Rod Balancing:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/CorvAIR...odBalance.html

This is pretty much exactly how my engine builder does it with one exception. Measure at 30 degrees either way to get an average. They have found that they don't differ much until you get over 55 degrees. Their methods help you recognize an error in assembly. If the installer accidentally got a rod cap on backwards or a main cap in backwards the reading would come out tight one way and loose the other. This process is where witness marks come from. This is the right way to do it as the bearings are being measured in their installed configuration. This takes into account bearing shell crush and everything.

Again, Dave you are full of it and I would suggest that you go dark again in this matter. You are better off!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
As for the crank....the customer supplied the crankshaft. Balancing the crank is an optional service on this shortblock that the customer chose not to pay for. That was no mystery to him. At that time we were unaware of any issues with the Manley cranks...I don't think anyone was. We are talking something like 2 years ago.
We are talking about a few months ago when this concern/issue was discussed! If your recall with your selective memory, I sent you back the shortblock so you can install the Manley crankshaft on 10/2011. That is not two years ago and I believe the matter of this defect was already public knowledge by now which I was not aware of since this is not what I do for a living Dave!!! That is your job!!! I am great paying customer and can have several vendors vouch for me. My decision on not balancing the crankshaft was purely based on your recommendation. That is it!! I would have gladly paid the additional $200-$500 to balance the crankshaft. You stated that you had a dozen of these cranks on the street right out of the box with no issues. That spoke volumes to me since experience was driving this decision, not money at this point!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
After this customer started hearing about balance issues he contacted us expecting us to force Manley to pay to have the engine torn down and the crank balance checked.
This is a complete lie!!! I never set those expectations!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
I did send an email to our Manley rep right after the customer contacted me. I never heard back and sorry, I got sidetracked and never followed up. These things happen. It is funny but after the irate call, I did make contact with Manley to try to find a resolution for the customer (despite everything) and when I told them who the customer was and who the shop was the guy went off on a tirade. So it sounds unlikely Manley would have done anything anyway. But who's problem is that? Should be the company that sold the crank in the first place! And that was not us.
I have never disclosed the shop that I was working with up to this point!! I do not understand your assumptions and you continue on about this shop!!! More importantly, what does that have to do with a paying customer that received defective components that was also installed by you blindly!!! Where is the QA/QC by you (i.e. Dave – Rallispec) as the engine builder and the MFG that produced a crank that was 26g out of balance @ 500 RPM’s only. Shame on both of you (i.e. Manley and Rallispec) for not taking responsibility in a cordial manner!!! I am very easy guy to get along with in matters like this. I share the same sentiment as most shops since I do have a background as a BMW master mechanic and spent 16 yrs dealing with the internal/external shenanigans that exist in a dealership.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post

If I offer to refund your money in its entirety and pay the return shipping entirely based on an unsubstantiated claim, how on earth is that bad customer service? What should be discussed is how people come on these forums to cry and whine and bang their fists because their unattainable expectations were not met. Get over it and move on!
Out of convenience did you make such an offer since I clearly explained the state I was in when we finally talked months later! Sending back the shortblock at this point was not an option!!! How could of that been an option since you neglected the situation and forced me to take matters into my own hands. Things were in motion for completion! Help me understand how your refund was a solution to this mess?? I think the earlier stated resolution would have been fair and appropriate that I proposed to you on the phone. Actually, you would have been off the hook completely with little retribution on your end and zero knowledge being conveyed to the subie community about your unethical business practices!! I am very glad I requested/forced a build sheet for my reference and that this situation was escalated. My expectations were realistic and very attainable – I just wanted a short block that would not come apart in short order. That is it! The funny thing is that both Manley and “The Rival Shop” rectified this matter in about 3 weeks. I would have thought that this end result would have been within reach of your capabilities?!? OBVIOUSLY NOT!!!!! The subie community deserves to know of this situation.

I am beyond over this matter and excited to complete my build in the next couple of weeks. Good stuff and stay tuned for the final build! This should be a wicked high 9 low 10 second street trim ride on E85. Good times!!

Cheers!
--Pete
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Last edited by stang352; 09-01-2012 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:28 PM   #27
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Another happy Rallispec customer, NOT!! Same pile of crap that was delivered to me with similar customer service results. Zero accountability on Dave's part --> http://www.iwsti.com/forums/3643949-post14.html
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #28
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I would still buy motor from Dave and he knows his stuff...people makes mistake and running a business can't make everyone happy! I couldn't imagine what ur reaction and action might be if P&L messed up ur motor and don't tell me they won't. Cuz they've done it before
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Old 09-19-2012, 05:45 PM   #29
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I would never deal with P&L.
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddiesubaru66
I would still buy motor from Dave and he knows his stuff...people makes mistake and running a business can't make everyone happy! I couldn't imagine what ur reaction and action might be if P&L messed up ur motor and don't tell me they won't. Cuz they've done it before
To each their own. My circumstances are much different than a mistake. You can not compare the two. Read the details in this thread and you may start to understand. Making me happy is not the issue here. Jeez. For the record, P&L is not building my engine. I am not sure why you referenced them?!?!
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:43 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stang352

To each their own. My circumstances are much different than a mistake. You can not compare the two. Read the details in this thread and you may start to understand. Making me happy is not the issue here. Jeez. For the record, P&L is not building my engine. I am not sure why you referenced them?!?!
I guess AMS is the one then. Well, I already made my point .anyways, Wish the best for ur build...plz give us little update about ur car when it's done..thx
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:16 PM   #32
stang352
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Originally Posted by Eddiesubaru66 View Post
I guess AMS is the one then. Well, I already made my point .anyways, Wish the best for ur build...plz give us little update about ur car when it's done..thx
Nope! AMS is not involved either. It is not that obvious just because I live in Chitown. Thank you for the warm wishes! I will certainly update you guys once it is done and will reveal all parties involved in this build. There are several subject matter experts involved in their particular discipline as well. Things have been delayed by a couple of weeks since UPS damaged a major component to this build! We would have been done by now and working on the break-in but the men in brown screwed us. Thankfully it was insured.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_RalliSpec View Post
First of all I don't have time to waste monitoring internet forums. I am busy running a business and assisting my customers.

Second...when a customer confronts me claiming that a rival shop (one with a negative history associated) has mysteriously found issues with a short block that was purchased some 18 months prior and never ran what should my reaction be? I asked the customer to send back the short block so we can evaluate his claims and rectify any issues. He declined. I asked the customer to send the short block to an independent expert to support his claims. That didn't work either. I offered to refund the customer in the entirety if he sent back the shortblock.. did not even have to be reassembled. He declined. The customer wanted me to refund him a large portion of the short block cost on the word of a rival shop and still keep the short block. That wasn't going to happen. At that point it was very obvious the conversation was going nowhere so yes, I hung up on him.

I don't know who made these measurements, what their skills are, the equipment they were using, the conditions under which they were making those measurements, or the potential bias that person might have to want to skew the measurements. Since I do not have the parts and never received the parts after these claims were made I cannot comment and should not be expected to comment. These are unsubstantiated claims that are being made here.

As for the balancing...anyone with any knowledge is going to say who cares about the total rod weights. What are the reciprocating masses and what are the rotating masses as they were distributed across the crankshaft? Without this information what is the point we are discussing? I will say that our first priority is to find a static balance with the minimum of material removed for obvious reasons. This means match weighting parts first. Second we remove material from the piston reinforcing struts if necessary to bring the reciprocating weights in balance. And only as a last resort do we remove material from the rod. Removing material especially from the big end will void most rod manufacturer's warranty. Of course if I were to have ground on all the rods to make their total weights in perfect harmony and then the rod broke you'd still be trashing me here right?

And bearing witness marks? I have no clue what you are talking about. We measure the bore, measure the journal, and measure the bearing thicknesses in order to calculate the oil clearance.

As for the crank....the customer supplied the crankshaft. Balancing the crank is an optional service on this shortblock that the customer chose not to pay for. That was no mystery to him. At that time we were unaware of any issues with the Manley cranks...I don't think anyone was. We are talking something like 2 years ago.

After this customer started hearing about balance issues he contacted us expecting us to force Manley to pay to have the engine torn down and the crank balance checked. I did send an email to our Manley rep right after the customer contacted me. I never heard back and sorry, I got sidetracked and never followed up. These things happen. It is funny but after the irate call, I did make contact with Manley to try to find a resolution for the customer (despite everything) and when I told them who the customer was and who the shop was the guy went off on a tirade. So it sounds unlikely Manley would have done anything anyway. But who's problem is that? Should be the company that sold the crank in the first place! And that was not us.

If I offer to refund your money in its entirety and pay the return shipping entirely based on an unsubstantiated claim, how on earth is that bad customer service? What should be discussed is how people come on these forums to cry and whine and bang their fists because their unattainable expectations were not met. Get over it and move on!

-Dave
Bravo. Thanks for saying what all vendors want to say. If you offered a full refund, this whole thread is useless. And just being used as a tool to extort further compensation.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:04 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmpautogroup

Bravo. Thanks for saying what all vendors want to say. If you offered a full refund, this whole thread is useless. And just being used as a tool to extort further compensation.
Really?!? Lol!!! You must have missed the big part of the VENDOR going dark and not offering any type of support or refund until things were being rectified by the customer. Give me a break and keep your shallow remarks to yourself since you are not the victim in this unethical situation of lies and theft by the VENDOR. I payed handsomely for a product that was not delivered as documented and agreed upon. Extortion??? Are you for real??!! I do not expect a penny from this VENDOR and obviously your business acumen aligns with this particular VENDOR. If you have read this thread in its entirety and still agree with this VENDOR, I completely question your integrity and ethical beliefs. All I am doing is providing an awareness to this situation as a point of reference for the community! They deserve to know, and what VENDOR they decide to align themselves with is their final decision.

Last edited by stang352; 10-03-2012 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmpautogroup View Post
Bravo. Thanks for saying what all vendors want to say. If you offered a full refund, this whole thread is useless. And just being used as a tool to extort further compensation.

This has to be the most useless post I've seen in a while.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:23 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by NoGraffix View Post
This has to be the most useless post I've seen in a while.
It was stated that a full refund was offered. At that point this is just a useless thread?
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:25 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by stang352 View Post
Really?!? Lol!!! You must have missed the big part of the VENDOR going dark and not offering any type of support or refund until things were being rectified by the customer. Give me a break and keep your shallow remarks to yourself since you are not the victim in this unethical situation of lies and theft by the VENDOR. I payed handsomely for a product that was not delivered as documented and agreed upon. Extortion??? Are you for real??!! I do not expect a penny from this VENDOR and obviously your business acumen aligns with this particular VENDOR. If you have read this thread in its entirety and still agree with this VENDOR, I completely question your integrity and ethical beliefs. All I am doing is providing an awareness to this situation as a point of reference for the community! They deserve to know, and what VENDOR they decide to align themselves with is their final decision.
False. Its he said, she said. Where you offered a refund? If so... should have taken it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Pmpautogroup View Post
It was stated that a full refund was offered. At that point this is just a useless thread?

Another useless and mindless post by the same VENDOR! Do yourself a favor and post something of substance or be on your way!
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:51 PM   #39
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False. Its he said, she said. Where you offered a refund? If so... should have taken it.
True!!! WTF are you talking about!!!??? It is time for you to remove your head from your rectum and read the details of this thread and post something of substance! You are completely waisting everyone's time. Stop or post something of specific relevance rather than post generalities of non-sense!

Another useless post by the same VENDOR! You are on a roll!!
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:00 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Pmpautogroup View Post
It was stated that a full refund was offered. At that point this is just a useless thread?
A full refund was not offered since their was a cost for me to investigate this situation. That cost was clearly not going to be covered by Rallispec as stated by Dave. I did ask!!!! Again, I was forced into this situation without any support by Dave/Rallispec until I took complete ownership in effort to resolve the mess that I was served by them.

Last edited by stang352; 10-10-2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:32 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pmpautogroup View Post
It was stated that a full refund was offered. At that point this is just a useless thread?

A full refund after the fact and after the costs of investigating the vendors mistakes is hardly a refund at all. The only thing the vendor really coudl've offered worth anything was the cost of indentifying and rectifying his mistakes. I understand this is a heafty thing to ask a vendor to do, but in all reality it's exactly what needed to be done in order to make right on a situation that had the potential to be very bad.

If the vendor would've been in contact earlier in the situation these circumstances could have been avoided. The block could've (and I'd like to assume would have) been sent back for inspection and the results identified by the other shop would have been compared aganist the vendors results. If the block was then determined to be out of spec it would be the vendors responsibility to pay for the inspection by the independent shop and pay to have the block issues corrected.

Now at this point I can understand why the vendor is reluctant to fix the issue as he has no real way of confirming that anything on the block was actually out of spec. The whole issue has become "he said - she said," because the block was repaired. The issue now is that the customer had to take responsibility of the issue into his own hands due to lack of communication on the part of the vendor. I do believe that it warrants some sort of compensation, but to what level I am uncertain. The fact that a a salesmen would simply hang up on a customer is out of line (if the customer was acting civil).

In the end this thread still isn't pointless because it's a situation where a customer felt wronged (rightfully so), and he has all the reason in the world to share his experience with the rest of the community. To say this thread is "pointless," is as I said before, "one of the most useless posts..."
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:39 PM   #42
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If Dave offered you full refund why the hell didn't you take it? And if you didn't you have little to complain about.

I think you would have been better off working with Ron of Axis fame...
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:29 PM   #43
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This is why you keep emails and record conversations when there is a problem....
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:41 PM   #44
Nadeemster
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Bump from the dead. So what has happened since. Should have went with element tuning.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:42 PM   #45
stang352
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Bump from the dead. So what has happened since. Should have went with element tuning.
you make a good point! Phil is a stand-up guy and has a lot to show for his accomplishments.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:32 PM   #46
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i cant believe a builder would do this. amazing. just amazing
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:48 PM   #47
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Good read, here I was hoping to buy a RallySpec block in the next couple of weeks.
After this little read. I will stick to my local guy who has been honest to me, and always gives me 1 - 2 year warranty on motor related work. My local guy also came about 200 dollar cheaper than RallySpec.

Sorry to hear about your stories, hope all is worked out.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:16 PM   #48
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Fixed..so how is ur build now?

Last edited by Eddiesubaru66; 08-02-2013 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:08 PM   #49
stang352
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Fixed..so how is ur build now?
It is good. Breaking in the motor now. Still have about 500 miles to go before we open her up. I have started a build thread that you can scope out if you interested in more details with images and video.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:14 PM   #50
stang352
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i cant believe a builder would do this. amazing. just amazing

It is really hard to trust anyone. It makes you wonder if they know what they are doing or it is just neglect and dishonesty - this hi-perfomance industry has always been this way as far as I remember back to the late 80's. I am really getting tired of it!!!!

It makes you want to just buy a really fast ride from the factory and pay the additional money that it would cost to afford one and just tune it (e.g. E63 AMG, M5, Porsche, Coyote Mustang, Vette, etc).
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