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Old 08-23-2012, 09:45 AM   #251
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I really don't think Gracie to be the superior grappler.
I don't know why you would think so either, other than BJJ being your style of choice. Being that BJJ is derived heavily from judo and the grappling is much the same, I find it puzzling that you think the Olympic athlete is behind someone who competes in the worlds. The worlds is small stage compared to the Olympics. That's like saying the Pan Am Games for wrestling is more competitive than the Olympics.
Sport(Olympic) judo is highly focused on the stand-up side of grappling. As a result, most judo practitioners spend significantly more time working the stand-up techniques. I watched a bunch of Olympic judo and I watched the judo worlds 2 years ago. The ground technique is nowhere near the level of elite BJJ players. (There's no doubt that the inverse is true as well. If I went a round with Poison he'd probably throw me on my head.) Heck, the armbar that won the semifinals match for Kayla Harrison was very poorly defended. I've seen this in my limited real life experiences as well. A couple years ago we had two brown belts from a local judo dojo come in a few times. Every one of our blue belts was able to tune those guys up on the ground.


Poison, do you agree?


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I don't think we've seen anyone have this much of a skill gap since the early UFCs. I think that's attributed to 1) the woman's division not being deep enough 2) the women haven't evolved into true expert MMA fighters and 3) no one has seen someone as skilled at judo as Ronda, put it all together.

Olympic wrestlers don't usually come in to dominate so fast but we see Hendo having serious success and the more recent story is Daniel Cormier. Dans pretty much put everyone on notice.

I'm sorry, but your Gracie family can't do that anymore. They generally get pummeled by any high level MMA fighter. Even in grappling, in MMA, I've seen plenty of fighters that can be in their guard and still find plenty of ways to win.

I think it all boils down to - BJJ's secrets are long out of the bag. Everyone trains it, so even super high level BJJ fighters are having difficulties subbing people (Damien Maia. Toquino was one of the last one trick ponies and saw how Belcher was able to counter and handle everything he threw at him). No one sees judo in the sort of application that Rousey is using it.


I agree that judo is a great base for MMA. But I don't get why you think it is more dominant than BJJ or any other art. Aside from Ronda, there really aren't any judo base fighters at a high level. It hasn't worked out for Parysian, Akiyama, Sokoudjou or Gamburyan. Probably the best one right now is Rick Hawn. He won Bellator's LW tournament and will fight for the title soon. Coincidentally, Rick teaches judo at my academy.

Oh and I think Roger Gracie has a pretty good chance at being the next dominant BJJ based MMA fighter.


p.s. Ronda's ground game is so good because she also trained/trains BJJ. IIRC she's been training under Gracie black belt Henry Akins for quite a while.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:08 AM   #252
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Sport(Olympic) judo is highly focused on the stand-up side of grappling. As a result, most judo practitioners spend significantly more time working the stand-up techniques. I watched a bunch of Olympic judo and I watched the judo worlds 2 years ago. The ground technique is nowhere near the level of elite BJJ players. (There's no doubt that the inverse is true as well. If I went a round with Poison he'd probably throw me on my head.) Heck, the armbar that won the semifinals match for Kayla Harrison was very poorly defended. I've seen this in my limited real life experiences as well. A couple years ago we had two brown belts from a local judo dojo come in a few times. Every one of our blue belts was able to tune those guys up on the ground.
]

Agree on most sport judo - but the reality is, if they're training judo as a martial art and not just as sport, their ground game is still there. As everyone is realizing, they may not be as varied as BJJ practitioners on the ground but can still dominate using a single refined move.

Ronda has already stated she did significant grappling work to get to where she is - so rumor dispelled that even high level players are just throw focused. Id argue that Ronda is more dominant on the sub than the throws. A good wrestler would have a much better shot at standing upright with her.

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I agree that judo is a great base for MMA. But I don't get why you think it is more dominant than BJJ or any other art. Aside from Ronda, there really aren't any judo base fighters at a high level. It hasn't worked out for Parysian, Akiyama, Sokoudjou or Gamburyan. Probably the best one right now is Rick Hawn. He won Bellator's LW tournament and will fight for the title soon. Coincidentally, Rick teaches judo at my academy.

Oh and I think Roger Gracie has a pretty good chance at being the next dominant BJJ based MMA fighter.

p.s. Ronda's ground game is so good because she also trained/trains BJJ.
I feel it's dominant, when at such a high level, for the same reasons I've said all along. People simply aren't used to seeing it, so the counters haven't been developed by the outside world. Completely different from just straight BJJ - where I grew up wrestling and was already decent at rolling simply because I'm always aware of my hip positioning and have a solid base.

Also, not judo specific but Olympian level specific - if you're so dominate at your trade, training to fight against you is almost impossible because you usually can't find a suitable training partner that will possess the same skill set. Most of the similarly skilled people stick together and aren't willing to break the inner circle - either.

Judo against BJJ is also a best of both worlds sort of example, because you're still going to get the sub training in judo. So I think the highest level judo guys are going to spank the highest level BJJ guys that have some seriously lame take down techniques that an average wrestler can defeat.

Personally, I think it's best to be developed in all martial arts. I prefer my wrestling base combined with my Muay Thai but just like I'd like the leg dexterity of a tae kwon do fighter, if also like the balance and throw of a judo player.


Roger Gracie would get punked in the UFC. Lawal punked him with a crappy overhand right - and Lawals striking is still amateur. Again, most of the Gracie family has been eaten alive in MMA contests over at least the last 5+ years. Sorry to be the spoil sport. That dominance officially died when a juiced Royce Gracie got taken to town by Hughes. Conveniently he got pounded on the ground - which is yet another example that people can still work within very high level BJJ practitioners guards and be successful. You aren't seeing anyone that's able to stand with Rousey, yet, and not get thrown to their back. Give it time until a high level wrestler comes along. Won't be an exciting fight but they'll stand a much better chance of creating a stalemate while standing/clinched.

And again, Rousey isn't dominate on the ground BC of BJJ. She's dominate on the ground because of judo. Everything she does is classic judo. You're only thinking of sport judo and taking for granted, half of the stuff you think of as BJJ is actually classic judo. All of her transitions and positions are judo not BJJ. If she was subbing people while working around their guard or working in her guard, I'd say you were on to something but nope, not the case.

Last edited by totalburnout; 08-23-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:23 AM   #253
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Why must BJJ practitioners be called "players"? Is it a translation thing (Portuguese to English)? Meaning, a Portuguese word means something completely different than it does directly translated to English. It seems to discredit their abilities. Maybe it's just me, but a "player" doesn't sound like someone that grapples.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:27 AM   #254
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]

Agree on most sport judo - but the reality is, if they're training judo as a martial art and not just as sport, their ground game is still there. As everyone is realizing, they may not be as varied as BJJ practitioners on the ground but can still dominate using a single refined move.

Ronda has already stated she did significant grappling work to get to where she is - so rumor dispelled that even high level players are just throw focused. Id argue that Ronda is more dominant on the sub than the throws. A good wrestler would have a much better shot at standing upright with her.



I feel it's dominant, when at such a high level, for the same reasons I've said all along. People simply aren't used to seeing it, so the counters haven't been developed by the outside world. Completely different from just straight BJJ - where I grew up wrestling and was already decent at rolling simply because I'm always aware of my hip positioning and have a solid base.

Also, not judo specific but Olympian level specific - if you're so dominate at your trade, training to fight against you is almost impossible because you usually can't find a suitable training partner that will possess the same skill set. Most of the similarly skilled people stick together and aren't willing to break the inner circle - either.

Judo against BJJ is also a best of both worlds sort of example, because you're still going to get the sub training in judo. So I think the highest level judo guys are going to spank the highest level BJJ guys that have some seriously lame take down techniques that an average wrestler can defeat.

Personally, I think it's best to be developed in all martial arts. I prefer my wrestling base combined with my Muay Thai but just like I'd like the leg dexterity of a tae kwon do fighter, if also like the balance and throw of a judo player.


Roger Gracie would get punked in the UFC. Lawal punked him with a crappy overhand right - and Lawals striking is still amateur. Again, most of the Gracie family has been eaten alive in MMA contests over at least the last 5+ years. Sorry to be the spoil sport. That dominance officially died when a juiced Royce Gracie got taken to town by Hughes. Conveniently he got pounded on the ground - which is yet another example that people can still work within very high level BJJ practitioners guards and be successful. You aren't seeing anyone that's able to stand with Rousey, yet, and not get thrown to their back. Give it time until a high level wrestler comes along. Won't be an exciting fight but they'll stand a much better chance of creating a stalemate while standing/clinched.

And again, Rousey isn't dominate on the ground BC of BJJ. She's dominate on the ground because of judo. Everything she does is classic judo. You're only thinking of sport judo and taking for granted, half of the stuff you think of as BJJ is actually classic judo. All of her transitions and positions are judo not BJJ. If she was subbing people while working around their guard or working in her guard, I'd say you were on to something but nope, not the case.


We agree on a lot but I still don't agree that high level(WC/Olympic) judokas can hang with WC/ADCC level grapplers on the ground. If they could, then we would have seen a judoka win a WC or ADCC event. To my knowledge, that has not happened. I can't even recall one coming close.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:28 AM   #255
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Why must BJJ practitioners be called "players"? Is it a translation thing (Portuguese to English)? Meaning, a Portuguese word means something completely different than it does directly translated to English. It seems to discredit their abilities. Maybe it's just me, but a "player" doesn't sound like someone that grapples.

That's not specific to BJJ. I hear judokas called judo players all the time. No idea where it originates from though.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:34 AM   #256
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That's not specific to BJJ. I hear judokas called judo players all the time. No idea where it originates from though.
Interesting. Didn't know that. I thought it was exclusive to BJJ. Thanks.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:48 AM   #257
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Interesting. Didn't know that. I thought it was exclusive to BJJ. Thanks.
I thought it actually originated with judokas. Players have been the term of choice.

I dont usually call BJJ guys players but always have for judo based on the books I've read some years ago.

Thug, I'm not well enough versed in ADC to know if any judo players have ever really competed - to know how the % of judo players that have competed and done well would stack up. It's tough if only a dozen have ever tried and no one has succeeded. If thousands have tried and none have succeeded, that would seem to make sense.

I have nothing against BJJ. I just don't think you get the most bang for your buck if you only train BJJ anymore.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:08 AM   #258
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I thought it actually originated with judokas. Players have been the term of choice.

I dont usually call BJJ guys players but always have for judo based on the books I've read some years ago.

Thug, I'm not well enough versed in ADC to know if any judo players have ever really competed - to know how the % of judo players that have competed and done well would stack up. It's tough if only a dozen have ever tried and no one has succeeded. If thousands have tried and none have succeeded, that would seem to make sense.

I have nothing against BJJ. I just don't think you get the most bang for your buck if you only train BJJ anymore.

No one here would or is arguing that last point.

ADCC is considered the #1 tournament in the world for no-gi grappling. It only occurs every 2 years and it is a lot more free-form than the BJJ Worlds and Pan-Ams. They allow all just about any submission and even allow slamming, although slams are only allowed when escaping a submission.

I just took a look through the results over the years. The only 1st place winners that listed Judo as their first discipline were Mark Robinson(who also did quite a bit of Greco-Roman) and Sanae Kikuta.Those were both back in 2001 and neither of them won the Absolute division, just their weight classes.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:25 PM   #259
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‎@rkruck HOT RUMOR ABOUT UFC 151: Hendo is injured...possible replacement...Chael Sonnen Also Machida could be in too
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:39 PM   #260
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‎Chael Sonnen
Haha, I would like to see this just because.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:13 PM   #261
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UFC 151 Cancelled.

Hendo has torn MCL, Jones was offered Sonnen, Jones declined.


Jones Vs. Machida 2 in Toronto, Sept 22 @ UFC 152
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:14 PM   #262
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As a Judoka, I can't support the idea that Judoka can hang with BJJ practitioners on the ground. Whether you train Judo as a martial art or as a sport, you're going to be splitting your time between throwing techniques and grappling techniques, while the BJJ guys are almost entirely on the ground. The fact that in most dojos it's 90% throwing and 10% groundwork only increases this disparity.

I like the ground game and have practiced it more than most Judoka. I can routinely tap out Judo black belts who can throw me more or less at will. But I also routinely get tooled by BJJ blue belts (and I'm better than most Judo brown belts). Part of this is because the BJJ blue belt is ridiculously hard to attain (from a Judo perspective). It's basically equivalent to the Judo black belt. Given that the Gracie family pretty much set it up that way, this shouldn't be a surprise.

That being said, Ronda Rousey comes from training in the USJA (of which her mother is the president). The USJA split with the USJF a few decades ago, in part because of disagreements over the overall direction of Judo. The USJF is the sporting body of US Judo, and the USJA keeps closer to the traditional style. There's also a lot of political bull****, which I won't get into here. Just take it as read that Ronda grew up doing a lot more ground work than the typical competitive Judoka.

There are also entire dojos that focus on ground work, both here in the US and elsewhere. Obviously, Judo Gene LeBell was a major proponent of ground work, and of course he was a major influence on Ronda.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #263
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Edit: already covered above
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:18 PM   #264
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As a Judoka, I can't support the idea that Judoka can hang with BJJ practitioners on the ground. Whether you train Judo as a martial art or as a sport, you're going to be splitting your time between throwing techniques and grappling techniques, while the BJJ guys are almost entirely on the ground. The fact that in most dojos it's 90% throwing and 10% groundwork only increases this disparity.

I like the ground game and have practiced it more than most Judoka. I can routinely tap out Judo black belts who can throw me more or less at will. But I also routinely get tooled by BJJ blue belts (and I'm better than most Judo brown belts). Part of this is because the BJJ blue belt is ridiculously hard to attain (from a Judo perspective). It's basically equivalent to the Judo black belt. Given that the Gracie family pretty much set it up that way, this shouldn't be a surprise.

That being said, Ronda Rousey comes from training in the USJA (of which her mother is the president). The USJA split with the USJF a few decades ago, in part because of disagreements over the overall direction of Judo. The USJF is the sporting body of US Judo, and the USJA keeps closer to the traditional style. There's also a lot of political bull****, which I won't get into here. Just take it as read that Ronda grew up doing a lot more ground work than the typical competitive Judoka.

There are also entire dojos that focus on ground work, both here in the US and elsewhere. Obviously, Judo Gene LeBell was a major proponent of ground work, and of course he was a major influence on Ronda.

Gene rules. Hell, he choked Seagal until ponytail boy **** himself!


http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2012/03/...pooped-himself
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:30 PM   #265
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Isn't gsp a judo black belt?

Dana is talking another fight for Wandy soon. I am sure its gotta be one of his last. I would loveeeee to see him fight Diaz as a stepping stone for him at 185. That would be a great brawl. Poor Wandy. Getting old but **** he comes to fight everytime.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:34 PM   #266
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Gene rules. Hell, he choked Seagal until ponytail boy **** himself!


http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2012/03/...pooped-himself

Damn it, blocked at work.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:46 PM   #267
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Not only has this screwed over all the fans that bought tickets, non refundable airfare, took off work, made arrangements, etc... but think of all the fighters. Fighters that put in full camps, flew people in that helped them trains, etc. By the time I am actually fight, I spend close to 20k between corners, flights, expenses, coaches, etc... and then to have the whole show cancelled because ONE guy didn't want to fight. This ONE guy that had trained an entire camp, who was the CHAMP and at the top of his weight class, who was going to fight someone who didn't do the camp, and was fighting UP a weight class.

I have always been a big Jon Jones supporter... but I would be FURIOUS if this happenned to me and I was on the card. To call is scorched earth wouldn't do it justice.

- Joe Lauzon

Jones is being selfish. Bisping took a fight against Chael on 8 days notice. I like Jones, but I just some lost respect for him for not fighting a guy coming up a weight class, Jones is a stud I think he would have easily beat Chael.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:50 PM   #268
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Isn't gsp a judo black belt?

Dana is talking another fight for Wandy soon. I am sure its gotta be one of his last. I would loveeeee to see him fight Diaz as a stepping stone for him at 185. That would be a great brawl. Poor Wandy. Getting old but **** he comes to fight everytime.
I've never heard of GSP having a Judo black belt, but it's possible. It certainly doesn't constitue the core of his fighting style. Off the top of my head, I can't recall him ever using anything that I'd call Judo. His primary style when he started was Kyokushin Karate, and he definitely has a black belt in that.

As for Wandy: am I the only one that gets a bit sad when watching him fight? It seems obvious to me that the game has passed him by. He's still brawling like it's 1999, and gets picked apart and dominated by more skilled opponents.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:51 PM   #269
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Jones has become a prima donna? You don't say!
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:54 PM   #270
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Isn't gsp a judo black belt?

GSP has a black belt in BJJ(from Gracie Barra) and a black belt in Kyokushin karate.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:55 PM   #271
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am I the only one that gets a bit sad when watching him fight?
You aren't the only one man. You can see it in his eye's, he isn't that same roid fueled monster we used to see in Pride. You can tell by the way he looks during walk outs. The Pride Silva isn't a guy you would want to be on the same block with if the lights were out, never mind a dark alley. The Wandy of UFC is all happy and smiling and stuff now during his walk outs. It just isn't the same.
Granted he is still winning some fights, and even recent ones. But his light switch goes on and off pretty easy now. He needs a retirement fight to end on a high note so he doesn't go too far down that road.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:55 PM   #272
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Never have liked Jones. I can add this to the list for reasons why. I hopes Machida beats him.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:57 PM   #273
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Hendo injured and out. Knee injury.
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:00 PM   #274
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Hendo injured and out. Knee injury.
Post #259 and 261
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:03 PM   #275
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