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Old 03-16-2013, 07:36 AM   #76
05_wRex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackbo View Post

Keep in mind that on the stock FPR this mod doesn't make a hill of beans difference.
Not true for me. I have the stock regulator and wiring my aeromotive 340 gave me 55 psi base pressure with the stock fpr. (07 STi with id1000s, stock rail)

Edit: I didn't bypass the stock style wiring. Just ran new 10 gauge on the positive side to the pump with a relay. Its still switched with factory wiring.

I was at 480 whp on id1000s and the aero 340. Voltage must have been dropping off quite a bit with the stock wiring because this mod gave me nearly 20% IDC up top.
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:53 AM   #77
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Huge difference if you take ground from the pump to chassis rather than back to the FPC. I don't think you get full flowing if you go back to the FPC. My pressures are about 15 psi higher ground to chassis. I have 10 ga from battery. I'm also using a Walbro 465 and Aeromotive fuel rail kit.
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:30 PM   #78
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Alright, I just re-read this entire thread and have the concept down. please confirm I've got this right, as there has been alot of back and forth.

I plan on keeping the 33/66/100 cycles of the OEM FPC

My plan is to wire to from the battery to the relay then to the pump. Pump gets grounded to the chassis. The Relay gets triggered by the old power wire(black/yellow) from the FPC.

The relay gets grounded to the chassis or to the FPC?

Now, as for the relay. If the FPC is modulating the power feed to the pump(now the relay trigger) This new added relay is getting triggered to go on and off very often. I'm assuming the 33/66/100 is controlled via on/off pulses to the pump. Now this same pulse is being sent to trigger the relay.

Has anyone seen failures of the relays based on excessive on/off triggers to the switch side of the relay?

I've used these relays for rally lights on the car, but never in this application where the on/off cycles are unknown to me.

Thanks
Eric
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:08 PM   #79
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Don't think that direct wire you will be able to do 30, 60 etc. because the FPC will trigger the relay and the relay does not differentiate between 30, 60 etc. it will just flip on and then you will have direct power from the battery.
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:33 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05_wRex View Post
Not true for me. I have the stock regulator and wiring my aeromotive 340 gave me 55 psi base pressure with the stock fpr. (07 STi with id1000s, stock rail)

Edit: I didn't bypass the stock style wiring. Just ran new 10 gauge on the positive side to the pump with a relay. Its still switched with factory wiring.

I was at 480 whp on id1000s and the aero 340. Voltage must have been dropping off quite a bit with the stock wiring because this mod gave me nearly 20% IDC up top.
hmmmm.... I did the same wiring and didn't notice any difference. Maybe it's my piddly Walbro 255 that needs replaced at this point.
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:27 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Zackbo View Post

hmmmm.... I did the same wiring and didn't notice any difference. Maybe it's my piddly Walbro 255 that needs replaced at this point.
I thought it was odd that it bumped my base pressure also. But my friend put a gauge on my rail while I was on his dyno. He said it was 55 psi at idle. And I got the duty cycle difference from my aem ems. Had to change my fuel map because it went pretty rich everywhere. It might have been the aero 340 that didn't like pumping that much fuel with the stock power wire. I'm assuming it was wanting to draw more than the wiring could give. My stock fpr might be on the fritz too. I have plans to put a regulator on it for good measure. But I definitely saw a healthy gain with this method.

10ga to relay. Relay switched and grounded through the FPC. I did use about a foot of 10ga wire from the ground on the pump to the available ground wire in the FPC loop.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:42 PM   #82
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How are you guys running the relay ground to the FPC?

Are you intercepting it? Are you t-ing it? Or are you just leaving it and grounding the relay to the chassis? There is only one ground wire on my relay.

I want to keep the duty cycles.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:13 AM   #83
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Here are some photos from the 09+ Service Manual. Sorry about the watermarking. My site automatically puts that on.

2.5i N/A SOHC



^This one looks like it would be straight forward to wire in a relay and retain proper on/off switching.

2.5 Turbo DOHC





^This one has a bit more unknown. There is no true "ground" coming out of the pump housing. Both positive and negative go into the fuel pump controller, and then that is grounded via an unknown circuit. From what I can tell R58 pin 5 is the positive, and always sees +12V when the car is on. The R58 pin 6 is the negative and sees +12V or 0V depending on what the controller is doing. This is what controls the pump. It's my understanding that it uses PWM for the control signal.

So here's what I see as the wiring options.

Relay Grounded:



^Fuel pump and relay both grounded to chassis. Fuel pump controller negative left disconnected. This setup will get you 100% fuel pump duty cycle any time the car is on. How will this affect pump life? I don't know. How will it work with the stock FPR? Probably not well.

Relay Wired to FPC Postive and Negative:



^Fuel pump grounded to chassis and relay ground through the fuel pump controller negative. I believe this setup should give you the on/off of the pump as controlled by the FPC. I'm not sure how well the PWM will play with the relay, so it may not work well, and the duty cycle may not behave as expected. How will this one work with the stock FPR? I'm not really sure.

I've learned quite a bit from this post, and from digging through the service manual, but I'm still not really sure the best way to wire this up. My concerns are the 100% pump duty cycle all the time vs. PWM through a relay, and also how these will work with the stock FPR (if at all). I'm curious to hear what everyone's thoughts are.

Also, I have no idea if these wiring diagrams are applicable to the older models. The wire colors at least look to be different. I'm not sure how the FPC interfaces with that fuel system either.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:34 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07pearlwht View Post
How are you guys running the relay ground to the FPC?

Are you intercepting it? Are you t-ing it? Or are you just leaving it and grounding the relay to the chassis? There is only one ground wire on my relay.

I want to keep the duty cycles.
Do we have a clear answer on this? I want to direct wire my pump and retain the duty cycles as well. I've read this thread 3 times and no one really answers this.

Thanks
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:38 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Type2 View Post
Do we have a clear answer on this? I want to direct wire my pump and retain the duty cycles as well. I've read this thread 3 times and no one really answers this.

Thanks
I left the fuel pump ground and the FPC ground intact. Works fine for my low HP, small turbo, e85ness.

I should post some pics of how I mounted and ran mine, just for more info.

I can say I intially took the black/yellow power wire out of the FPC connector to power the relay. I then wondered, for a bit, why the car would run for 90 seconds and then stall. Lol. Lesson learned ecu no likey not seeing the FPC in that configuration.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:59 AM   #86
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I can say for sure that on the 08+ the Bl/y wire (blue, yellow stripe) is +12v and the Bl/r (blue/red stripe) is the one that gets modulated. If you want to run a switched relay, and keep the factory duty cycles cut the GR/y and run your switched power into the FP harness there.

Last edited by dstroy; 04-29-2013 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:25 AM   #87
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:17 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
I can say for sure that on the 08+ the Bl/y wire (blue, yellow stripe) is +12v and the Bl/r (blue/red stripe) is the one that gets modulated. If you want to run a switched relay, and keep the factory duty cycles cut the GR/y and run your switched power into the FP harness there.
So you left the fuel pump negative/ground going back through the OEM wiring?
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:27 AM   #89
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So you left the fuel pump negative/ground going back through the OEM wiring?
Yes, but I ran 10ga GND from the FP to the FPC and 10ga from the FPC to chassis. The 18ga OEM gnd wire from the FP to the FPC is only ~8ft long which is fine to GND the 7 amps that the 255lph walbro pump I have uses, but I was already in there and had my tools out so why not.
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Old 05-05-2013, 09:35 PM   #90
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Have this done now. I had to ground the relay to the chassis. Otherwise the FP would cut out.

Now, I did get a p0230.

I understand that the circuit from the Fp module is no longer complete, and the oem Fp power wire is only actuating the relay.

Anyone else? I'm wires just like in the 1st post with a DW300

Thanks

E
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:59 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
^Fuel pump grounded to chassis and relay ground through the fuel pump controller negative. I believe this setup should give you the on/off of the pump as controlled by the FPC. I'm not sure how well the PWM will play with the relay, so it may not work well, and the duty cycle may not behave as expected. How will this one work with the stock FPR? I'm not really sure.

I've learned quite a bit from this post, and from digging through the service manual, but I'm still not really sure the best way to wire this up. My concerns are the 100% pump duty cycle all the time vs. PWM through a relay, and also how these will work with the stock FPR (if at all). I'm curious to hear what everyone's thoughts are.
As you've eluded to, relying on the FPC ground to control the relay isn't a good idea. Relays are slow (relatively speaking) and wear out. If PWM is being used, there's no way the relay can stand up to that type of abuse for long.

Only options I see are either just running a dedicated power lead to the fuel pump and relying on the current grounds in place to retain modulation (potentially a bad/pointless idea as I have no idea how long the ground leads are) or to wire it as you have in the relay grounded diagram so that the FP is running 100% and the FPC is just providing the switched source for the relay. I suppose you could also investigate using something other than a relay (MOSFET, maybe?). Just spit-balling, here. My thinking may be way off base, too, so take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT::

After more thought and seeing this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
Yes, but I ran 10ga GND from the FP to the FPC and 10ga from the FPC to chassis. The 18ga OEM gnd wire from the FP to the FPC is only ~8ft long which is fine to GND the 7 amps that the 255lph walbro pump I have uses, but I was already in there and had my tools out so why not.
I'm thinking just running a dedicated power lead to the FP and relying on the stock grounds may not be a bad idea. Less than ideal, sure, but seemingly better than having the FP at 100% constantly.

Something like this (borrowed your pic, xluben)...


That is basically just reiterating what dstroy did, I just threw in a picture.

Last edited by larrimus; 05-07-2013 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:36 AM   #92
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As you've eluded to, relying on the FPC ground to control the relay isn't a good idea. Relays are slow (relatively speaking) and wear out. If PWM is being used, there's no way the relay can stand up to that type of abuse for long.

Only options I see are either just running a dedicated power lead to the fuel pump and relying on the current grounds in place to retain modulation (potentially a bad/pointless idea as I have no idea how long the ground leads are) or to wire it as you have in the relay grounded diagram so that the FP is running 100% and the FPC is just providing the switched source for the relay. I suppose you could also investigate using something other than a relay (MOSFET, maybe?). Just spit-balling, here. My thinking may be way off base, too, so take it with a grain of salt.
Your FPC is in the trunk on the passenger side (08+). The ground circuit is ~8ft. the wiring is 18ga, plenty big enough for 7 amps. the voltage drop is about .31vdc if you direct wire from the battery and switch the relay from the green wire with the yellow stripe that goes into the fuel pump. It's constant 12v, the FPC controls pump duty cycle with the green wire with the red stripe which is the return (ground). You can run new grounds from the FPC to the FP, and you can splice a wire into the FPC harness to ground the FPC to chassis.

The relay will be powered as soon as you turn the key to the ON position, and unlike most of the ACC in the car it will continue to power the FP while the car is cranking if you wire it like I described.

*this is for an 08+* USE A MULTIMETER, LABEL YOUR WIRES, THEN DISCONNECT YOUR BATTERY

86: green wire yellow stripe from FPC (use a 5a fuse) (switched power)
87: solder 10ga wire onto the green yellow stripe wire or repin plug that goes into the FP (controlled unit, in this case a fuel pump)
85: ground to chassis (RELAY GROUND)
30: run to battery (fuse according to your fuel pump ((running current*0.3)+running current) or the starting current+5a whichever number is larger) in my case a walbro 255lph has about a 9a starting current spike, so I chose a 15a fuse.

You CAN run new grounds from the FP to the FPC and you CAN ground the FPC directly to chassis, but you don't HAVE to.

You also DON'T want your FP running at 100% duty cycle ALL the time, because if you spend a significant amount of time idling your base fuel pressure at idle will be very high, and you will run rich, and heat up your fuel. This is because you overwhelm the fuel return, because there isn't as much fuel demand at idle.

I soldered everything, and I like to use heatshrink, cable ties, and electrical tape appropriately. You can easily start a fire if you aren't careful working around fuel, don't do it if you're not comfortable or if you think it's beyond your ability.

Last edited by dstroy; 05-07-2013 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:37 AM   #93
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I have all of mine soldered and heat shrunk with self sealing heat shrink. I'm running 100% and it does overrun the return at idle.

I'll have to review your wiring setup. How does it compare to the schematic I posted above?
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:42 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I have all of mine soldered and heat shrunk with self sealing heat shrink. I'm running 100% and it does overrun the return at idle.

I'll have to review your wiring setup. How does it compare to the schematic I posted above?
Which schematic?

I wired it to run 100% at first and I was running rich at idle, so I changed it to what I described above.



This is how I'm wired, but I put a 5a fuse on pin 86 of the relay. I also ran a 10ga GND to chassis from pin 5 on the FPC.

Last edited by dstroy; 05-07-2013 at 08:58 AM. Reason: picture, clarification
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:06 AM   #95
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I don't seem to have an issue at idle. Stays at a consistent 14.7 on 100%.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:27 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I have all of mine soldered and heat shrunk with self sealing heat shrink. I'm running 100% and it does overrun the return at idle.

I'll have to review your wiring setup. How does it compare to the schematic I posted above?
Over run? How can you tell other than the fact it runs 100% all the time? Whats your base FP set at with idle with this operation?

With your wiring it does not prime and then stop, when the ignition is turned correct? It should just keep running, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
Which schematic?

I wired it to run 100% at first and I was running rich at idle, so I changed it to what I described above.



This is how I'm wired, but I put a 5a fuse on pin 86 of the relay. I also ran a 10ga GND to chassis from pin 5 on the FPC.
Are you no longer running rich? Does this method prime and then shut off when you turn the key to the on position?

Last edited by sexyyrex; 05-07-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:44 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by sexyyrex View Post
Over run? How can you tell other than the fact it runs 100% all the time? Whats your base FP set at with idle with this operation?

With your wiring it does not prime and then stop, when the ignition is turned correct? It should just keep running, right?



Are you no longer running rich? Does this method prime and then shut off when you turn the key to the on position?
I can tell, because I logged and I have an AEM wideband plugged into accesstuner race. My tuner said I was running rich at idle running at 100% all the time. I'm on the stock FPR so 43.5psiBFP, but it would climb to 60psi if I let it idle for a while. The fuel pump primes and stops, just like stock. I am no longer running rich, and it did give me about 5%IDC up top even on the stock FPR wired the way I did it.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:55 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
I can tell, because I logged and I have an AEM wideband plugged into accesstuner race. My tuner said I was running rich at idle running at 100% all the time. I'm on the stock FPR so 43.5psiBFP, but it would climb to 60psi if I let it idle for a while. The fuel pump primes and stops, just like stock. I am no longer running rich, and it did give me about 5%IDC up top even on the stock FPR wired the way I did it.
This is precisely what I'm looking for.
So you've done nothing different than this schematic? You left the stock wiring from Pin 1-6 from the FPC to FP?
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:01 AM   #99
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This is precisely what I'm looking for.
So you've done nothing different than this schematic? You left the stock wiring from Pin 1-6 from the FPC to FP?
He ran 10 awg wire for the grounds but mentioned it wasn't necessary since the stock wiring is 18 awg and only ~8' in length. Peace of mind goes a long way, though.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:02 AM   #100
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OK, now that I see the modified diagram I understand. I guess this is actually how the initial post was written up as well. This setup should retain the fuel pump on/off, but it still runs the pump's negative lead back through OEM wiring and the FPC. I have no idea how much current the FPC can handle, and I don't know how to determine that. I think this wiring setup would be great for a 255 or 300 pump, but I'm not sure if I would trust it with a larger pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexyyrex View Post
Over run? How can you tell other than the fact it runs 100% all the time? Whats your base FP set at with idle with this operation?

With your wiring it does not prime and then stop, when the ignition is turned correct? It should just keep running, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstroy View Post
I can tell, because I logged and I have an AEM wideband plugged into accesstuner race. My tuner said I was running rich at idle running at 100% all the time. I'm on the stock FPR so 43.5psiBFP, but it would climb to 60psi if I let it idle for a while.
Mine just turns on when the car turns on and then the pump runs 100% of the time. I could tell it was over running the return because the base pressure was high at idle. I currently have the FPR set for a 55psi base pressure and I can't get it to go any lower. I was hoping that if I freed up the flow on the return line I could run the 100% pump setup and still have the ability to run 43.5psi base pressure.
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