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Old 08-09-2012, 11:59 AM   #176
paulmofyourhand
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I find it amusing the AP BRZ-300 vs the White FR-S w/ exhaust runs through a school zone

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Old 08-09-2012, 12:02 PM   #177
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The comparison between the BRZ and the Miata has nothing to do with 60ft times...they are both RWD cars, with a six speed...similarly geared.

Yes, the WRX has an advantage out of the hole, but it would have the same acceleration and traction advantage coming off of an apex as it does out of the hole at the dragstrip. Drive either the wrx or the miata on a racetrack (back to back if you can) and you will see exactly what i am talking about.

I completely understand how trap speed tells you about power to weight and acceleration...i have been competitively drag racing for almost 2 decades. I'm talking about putting power to the ground. With the double wishbone, torque-arm suspension in the rear, the miata puts the power to the ground better than the BRZ and therefore is ultimately a faster car in stock form. This is shown by the 1/4 mile times as the miata can get out of the hole and initially put more power through the drivetrain. The WRX obviously has this in spades over both of the other cars due to AWD.

You are correct on your trap speed comparison...but you can't ignore what the other data from a quarter mile race tells us just to try to make your point.

Last edited by Squidz; 08-09-2012 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:38 PM   #178
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aero changes trap speed too...
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:49 PM   #179
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^^ True, the BRZ is much more aerodynamic. It's a beautiful car.
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:00 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
The comparison between the BRZ and the Miata has nothing to do with 60ft times...they are both RWD cars, with a six speed...similarly geared.
That's fine. My point is, .1 of a second in a 0-60, and in the 1/4 mile that the Miata has on the BRZ could mean anything (an extra shift, for example). .1 seconds is hardly significant.

The 3 mph the BRZ has on the Miata is the only thing about those numbers that is really telling. And it's telling us that the BRZ accelerates harder than the Miata. A car that traps 100 will be at least noticeably slower than a car that traps 103. Certainly moreso than comparing a 5.1 to a 5.2 standing start time.

And to the point, I'm not "ignoring" the other aspects of the data to prove my point. Only one bit of data gives an indication of acceleration without other factors significantly contributing to it (lauch, etc.). That bit of data is trap speed.
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:22 PM   #181
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But the trap speed can be affected by just as many 'outside factors' as anythig else can. How hard you launch the car can also drastically affect your trap speed, just as it can your times. You are also assuming that there were driver errors...they didn't just do one run and call it a day. They did several..and then averaged them together..i doubt they made the exact same mistakes each time.

The numbers aren't perfect on either side...so you have to take them as they are. 0-60 and 1/4 times the miata is quicker...is that .1 second going to be even noticeable at any point ever? No, it's not. The BRZ has a better power to weight ratio, is that going to make that big of a difference? It really should, but in reality it doesn't because the BRZ can't get that extra power to the ground in the right places. Mostly because of the torque curve...which is why it has to chase down a car with 30 less horsepower at the dragstrip.

Combine all of this with the fact that it's more expensive...

The BRZ is a really good car, but it's not excellent...The BRZ chassis is almost too good for 200 CHP. It really needs the kind of horsepower that these guys are making with this turbo kit to make it an excellent car. The miata started with 115 HP...and the same things were said about it in 1990. In all fairness they have been improving it for 23 years...and turned it into one of the best budget sports cars on the planet. So i can't wait to see where the BRZ is 20 years from now.
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:36 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz
But the trap speed can be affected by just as many 'outside factors' as anythig else can. How hard you launch the car can also drastically affect your trap speed, just as it can your times. You are also assuming that there were driver errors...they didn't just do one run and call it a day. They did several..and then averaged them together..i doubt they made the exact same mistakes each time.

The numbers aren't perfect on either side...so you have to take them as they are. 0-60 and 1/4 times the miata is quicker...is that .1 second going to be even noticeable at any point ever? No, it's not. The BRZ has a better power to weight ratio, is that going to make that big of a difference? It really should, but in reality it doesn't because the BRZ can't get that extra power to the ground in the right places. Mostly because of the torque curve...which is why it has to chase down a car with 30 less horsepower at the dragstrip.

Combine all of this with the fact that it's more expensive...

The BRZ is a really good car, but it's not excellent...The BRZ chassis is almost too good for 200 CHP. It really needs the kind of horsepower that these guys are making with this turbo kit to make it an excellent car. The miata started with 115 HP...and the same things were said about it in 1990. In all fairness they have been improving it for 23 years...and turned it into one of the best budget sports cars on the planet. So i can't wait to see where the BRZ is 20 years from now.
Well said.
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:35 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
But the trap speed can be affected by just as many 'outside factors' as anythig else can. How hard you launch the car can also drastically affect your trap speed, just as it can your times. You are also assuming that there were driver errors...they didn't just do one run and call it a day. They did several..and then averaged them together..i doubt they made the exact same mistakes each time.


I thought you said you drag raced? Trap speed is MUCH MUCH less affected by how good of a launch you have compared to ET. By the same token, driver error more greatly affects ET, compared to trap speeds.

That's automobile performance 101. It's the reason trap speed is WIDELY regarded as the best indicator of power to weight, while ET isn't (as it is MUCH more driver dependent). Surely can't be arguing that.

As to everything else your talking about, I don't disagree. The point was, is the BRZ faster than a Miata? I would say, in an overall acceleration sense, yes, the BRZ is the faster car. Not hugely so, but faster none the less. In fact, most of the Miata tests have it at like 15 flat at 90 mph.

3 mph on the trap is actually like an average EJ20 wrx compared to an EJ25 WRX. There's a good bit of difference in WHP/weight between those two cars, and it shows up in the trap speed.

Last edited by REX8; 08-09-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:51 PM   #184
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From Motortrend's BRZ Review:

Quote:
At 2747 pounds, the BRZ is 160 pounds heavier than the 2012 Mazda MX-5 Miata Special Edition hardtop, but offsets the added weight with an extra 33 hp. In other words, the Subaru's weight-to-power ratio of 13.7 pounds per pony betters the Mazda's 15.5. Unsurprisingly, the BRZ, which measures 9.4 inches longer and around 2 inches wider and taller than the Miata, proved quicker, scooting from 0 to 60 in 6.4 seconds (versus the Miata's 6.5) and through the quarter mile in 14.9 at 95.5 mph (versus 15.0 at 90.2).

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz234YYSyyg

Look at that 5 mph difference in trap speed. The BRZ is seriously pulling on the Miata.

No way if you had these two cars out on a road course, or the highway, would you say the Miata is the faster car. It simply is not.

It's walking the Miata faster than an SRT-4 walks a WRX.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:13 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post


I thought you said you drag raced? Trap speed is MUCH MUCH less affected by how good of a launch you have compared to ET. By the same token, driver error more greatly affects ET, compared to trap speeds.

That's automobile performance 101. It's the reason trap speed is WIDELY regarded as the best indicator of power to weight, while ET isn't (as it is MUCH more driver dependent). Surely can't be arguing that.
I never said aything about it affecting times more than trap speed..i simply said the way you drive the car can affect trap speed...just like the way you drive the car can affect times. I never made any inference to it affecting trap speed more or less than time. I said it can substantially afect it, as you said...2-3 mph is substantial.

How you drive the car, and launch the car can change trap speeds by 2-3 mph easily. Shift 100 rpm too soon or too late, loose a little traction going into second or third...it's all relative.

Quote:
As to everything else your talking about, I don't disagree. The point was, is the BRZ faster than a Miata? I would say, in an overall acceleration sense, yes, the BRZ is the faster car. Not hugely so, but faster none the less. In fact, most of the Miata tests have it at like 15 flat at 90 mph.
I took my nubers from the same place...meaning they tested the car the same. the article quoted a bit ago had the BRZ up by a tenth of a second...and had a trap speed difference of 5 instead of three. Again showing that both times and trap speed can be greatly affected by how you drive the car.

I know the BRZ has a better power to weight ratio...it should, it makes 33 more HP...but the plain fact that the numbers are so close with the BRZ having a 33 HP advantage tells you just how quick the miata really is...just how well the miata uses the power available to it. This translates into a much more driveable and ultimately faster car on the racetrack.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:20 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
Look at that 5 mph difference in trap speed. The BRZ is seriously pulling on the Miata.

No way if you had these two cars out on a road course, or the highway, would you say the Miata is the faster car. It simply is not.

It's walking the Miata faster than an SRT-4 walks a WRX.

5mph difference in speed at 90 MPH...neither of these cars in stock trim are going to come aywhere near 90 MPH out of a corner. The BRZ will pull on it at the top of the straights...but it doesn't really translate to corner exiting as you stated before.

I have had both of these cars out on the road...and on an autocross course and have driven many miatas on the road course (have not had a chance to steal a BRZ at the track yet ).

I still say the miata, in stock form, would set faster lap times. These cars should not be this close with the BRZ having a huge power and weight advantage...that tells me that there is something about the BRZ that doesn't work yet.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:50 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
And sometimes progress requires you to take a step or two back in order to go forward. How many high compression, direct injected, boxer motors do you know of running high boost?????? When you find one your argument will be valid.

I 2nd this. I don't think Mr. nick knows WHY a high compression direct injected motor has to start with low boost. This is definitely a step in the right direction for this car!!! Well done guys!
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:21 PM   #188
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IDC if the Miata is fast IMO it's a girls car. It's tiny plain and boring unless it has an LS motor LOL. The BRZ/FRS is a good looking slow sports car. For now anyways. Someone need's to LS swap a BRZ.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:49 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBARIFFIC View Post
Folks moderate power will come in due time. 4psi so what its a start jst wait till we get some rod and piston options first. This is a Direct Injection setup a Subaru/Toyota one a that. This car only needs 300whp tops with the weight it will be a beast of a all round car. I seen one yesterday and I want one now
unless some serious limited diff is also introduced, 300whp on that car is going to be fun only in a straight line, after smoking half your tires in 1-2 gears
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:00 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaomega0

unless some serious limited diff is also introduced, 300whp on that car is going to be fun only in a straight line, after smoking half your tires in 1-2 gears
Umm racerom per gear boost control ...
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:02 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visconti

Umm racerom per gear boost control ...
Such a beautiful thing
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:42 PM   #192
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Joined NASIOC just to see where this goes. Rode in a BRZ today and it was eye opening to say the least. For the price point you cant bet a better looking or feeling car. Depending on how this thread turns out I can see myself buying one.

Visconti, how much further do you think you can push the stock fuel setup? Any Idea what the stock fuel pressure is at? I'm interested to see how much the stock setup can be pushed.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:45 AM   #193
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Nice job, the pull against the FRS was tremendous.

Kind of sad to see these cars done up for straight line racing. Would like to see them in time attack.
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:57 AM   #194
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great job!
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Old 08-18-2012, 11:49 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predokk
Joined NASIOC just to see where this goes. Rode in a BRZ today and it was eye opening to say the least. For the price point you cant bet a better looking or feeling car. Depending on how this thread turns out I can see myself buying one.

Visconti, how much further do you think you can push the stock fuel setup? Any Idea what the stock fuel pressure is at? I'm interested to see how much the stock setup can be pushed.
Fuel pressure is at a static 4 bar - 58 psi

With the turbo car making 280whp I had pushed the fuel system as far as I wanted to.

Next week I will be testing several sets of injectors and one or two fuel pumps. Shooting for At least 300 on pumpgas and even more on e85.

John
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Old 08-18-2012, 12:24 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visconti View Post
Fuel pressure is at a static 4 bar - 58 psi

With the turbo car making 280whp I had pushed the fuel system as far as I wanted to.

Next week I will be testing several sets of injectors and one or two fuel pumps. Shooting for At least 300 on pumpgas and even more on e85.

John
Jesus that will be out of control. Can't wait to see where this keeps going
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:49 PM   #197
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Great work accelerated and visconti, this car should be pretty rad within the next couple months!
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:59 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickcrsx View Post
This is a step backward for Subaru. Why be patient when the technology was already available?
The Miata was a step backwards for Mazda (from the RX-7), what a miserable failure that was, amirite?
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:47 AM   #199
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Saw the 11.3 @ 127! Bang up job, Visconti!
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Old 09-13-2012, 05:19 PM   #200
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Thanks everyone

One side of me says " don't touch it" the other side says "500whp or bust"
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