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Old 09-01-2002, 09:19 AM   #1
Revision
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Default Timing Advance Discussion

I'm interested in seeing what people are running for timing advance on their RS-T. I believe that I'm about 80% of the way to where I want to be with 6psi and a VF23 in a MY99 with stock internals.

I'd like to see or get a general idea what kind of timing everyone else is running no matter what kind of aftermarket control is being used.
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Old 09-01-2002, 02:03 PM   #2
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You need to post that table in numeric format if you want anyone to be able to read it, Andrew. I'd post mine, but it's absolutely hideous.
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Old 09-01-2002, 09:50 PM   #3
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1 degree retard through the entire RPM band with 4.3 psi on a Legacy RHB5 turbo. MY 2001 RS, so you know about our little advance ingition dilemma. Also, in conjuntion with a J&S Safegaurd pulling sometimes 4 degrees at redline (engine noise though).


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Old 09-02-2002, 02:31 AM   #4
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I thought the graph looked prettier..

I just found out today that the stock NA MY99 RS hits about 50 degrees of timing somewhere near 4500 rpm.. Which means that I've got a lot more tuning that needs to be done..

This would also explain why my powerband falls off over 4500 rpm..
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Old 09-02-2002, 02:51 AM   #5
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I run stock 2000 RS ECU with APEXi ITC

At 10 psi of boost (6,000 ft alt) I remove 2 degrees at 4,000 rpm, 5 degrees at 5,000 rpm and above. At 15 psi I remove 3-4 degrees at 4,000 rpm and 6 degrees at 5,000 and above.

I don't know the absolute values since I don't know the stock ECU values, and think you would typically remove another 2 degrees at sea-level I am told. I would guess that you should be able to get 18-20 degrees of adavance by redline I would think. Maybe more.

I think once I looked at OBDII adavnce on the stock ECU and saw about 18-19 degrees at 3,000 rpm WOT climbing to about 29 degrees by redline WOT, but climbing to 45 degrees cruising. The ECU does seem to retard about 4 degrees under boost, so I expect I am dropping the total back to about 20 or so.

Anyone care to chime in?
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Old 09-02-2002, 10:56 AM   #6
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Revision - how do you capture/post tec tables/maps?
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Old 09-02-2002, 10:58 AM   #7
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Alt-Print Screen. Then I paste it into a picture editor and save as a compressed JPG.

Or you can paste it into a Write document and save it as a .rtf or .doc
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Old 09-02-2002, 02:02 PM   #8
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Here is my current one out of the Haltech. The MAP pressure is scaled down the left side from 01 - 16 "Bar" which is about -30in/hg up to atmospheric. I have a 2 bar map sensor and just cut off the boost side of the map since I haven't got the kit on yet, and I cut off everything over 7000RPM (up to 10500).

Note that this is REALLY rough and just keeps me running well. The car almost feels like stock NA at this point, so I consider it to be a pretty decent map, though still rough in the midranges.

Code:
                                    RPM (x 100)
      00   05   10   15   20   25   30   35   40   40   45   50   55   60   65   70
Bar
 01   13   13   13   19   27   34   37   40   40   40   40   40   40   40   40   40
 02   13   13   13   19   27   34   37   40   40   40   40   40   40   40   40   40
 03   13   14   13   19   26   34   37   40   40   40   40   40   40   40   40   40
 04   13   14   13   19   26   34   37   37   40   40   40   40   40   40   40   40
 05   13   14   14   19   25   34   37   37   37   40   40   40   40   40   40   40
 06   13   16   14   19   25   34   37   37   37   37   40   40   40   40   40   40
 07   13   18   15   19   24   34   37   37   37   37   37   40   40   40   40   40
 08   13   20   16   19   24   34   34   37   37   37   37   37   40   40   40   40
 09   14   22   17   22   23   32   34   34   34   34   34   34   37   37   37   37
 10   14   23   17   21   23   31   34   34   34   34   34   34   34   34   34   34
 11   14   23   18   21   22   29   31   31   31   31   31   31   31   31   31   31
 12   14   23   17   20   22   27   28   28   28   28   28   28   28   28   28   28
 13   14   23   16   19   21   25   25   25   25   25   25   25   25   25   25   25
 14   14   23   18   20   22   24   26   24   26   28   27   29   28   27   27   30
 15   14   23   18   21   22   23   25   24   26   28   29   31   32   32   32   30
 16   14   23   18   23   22   23   25   24   26   28   29   31   32   32   32   30
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Old 09-02-2002, 02:09 PM   #9
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I know you said RS-t's, but here's my wrx (still haven't loaded winTEC2 onto the desktop computer...
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Old 09-02-2002, 02:44 PM   #10
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And a map
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Old 09-02-2002, 07:32 PM   #11
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Well, seems there is something VERY wrong with the TEC-II timing maps. Hndatch, Revision, and I played around with my timing map today according to his TEC-II map posted above (with a little more tweaking) and found that I, with the Haltech, run a max of around 32-33 degrees whereas the TEC-II runs 40-ish at the NA point. I looked back into my OBD-II logs from the stock ECU and found that it, too, ran it around 31-32 degrees of advance max timing.

Anyone know what is with the TEC-II on that note? Is the 0 point in the wrong place (ie. 10 degrees off where 0 really is?)?
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Old 09-02-2002, 08:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by 8Complex
Anyone know what is with the TEC-II on that note? Is the 0 point in the wrong place (ie. 10 degrees off where 0 really is?)?
Put an inductive timing light on the car with the TEC2 and you can tell for sure. With the TEC's waste spark system, you'll read double the RPM, but it still works fine. As long as the zero notch on the crank pulley lines up with the zero mark on the timing indicator, you know that the TEC know where TDC #1 piston is.

The TEC relies on your mounting/installation of the magnetic crank pickup sensor to know where TDC #1 piston is. With the crank pulley zero notch lined up with the zero mark on the engine timing indicator, the magnetic sensor needs to be mounted so that it is centered on the trailing edge of the 11th tooth.

With the TEC3, there is an adjustment in the software to automatically compensate your timing advance values if you're using the 10th or 12th tooth (or any tooth other than #11). With the TEC2, if you're not using the 11th tooth, you have to adjust your timing values in the ignition advance table. There is no adjustment in the software.

It's possible his crank sensor is mounted on the 10th tooth. Since it's a 60 (minus two) tooth wheel, every tooth represents 6 degrees of timing. So when the TEC thinks the crank is at TDC#1 piston, the crank is actally 6 degrees *before* TDC #1 piston. In this case, if the value entered in his timing table is 40, the actual timing advance would be 34 degrees.

It's also possible his crank sensor is mounted between two teeth... If it was centered exactly halfway between the trailing edge of the 9th tooth and the trailing edge of the 10th tooth, the actual advance would be 9 degrees less than the number displayed in the ignition advance table.

What it should look like:
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Old 09-02-2002, 11:09 PM   #13
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I just checked my notes and I am 99.9% sure that the sensor is on the trailing edge of the 11th tooth.. But just to make sure, we'll have to hit it up with a timing light this next weekend...

For another note. Is there a major difference in timing maps between the MY99 and MY00-01?
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Old 09-02-2002, 11:23 PM   #14
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I helped tune a Link on a MY99, and I noticed that on average, we were able to run 3-4 more degrees of timing on that motor than I'm able to run on my MY00 motor.
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Old 09-02-2002, 11:41 PM   #15
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Impreza Rider - Would you perhaps mind posting a screencapture of your timing map? I'm curious what other MY00 RS's are running in way of timing as we proved today that I'm not that far off. Now.... to just tune the fueling right too... lol
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Old 09-03-2002, 12:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Revision
For another note. Is there a major difference in timing maps between the MY99 and MY00-01?
All other things equal, you should be able to run a bit higher timing on a 98/00 compared to an 00/01 because of the lower compression.
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Old 09-03-2002, 12:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by 8Complex
Impreza Rider - Would you perhaps mind posting a screencapture of your timing map? I'm curious what other MY00 RS's are running in way of timing as we proved today that I'm not that far off. Now.... to just tune the fueling right too... lol
How do I do that? I'm not sure if I have any software to do that.
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Old 09-03-2002, 01:16 AM   #18
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Hmm, am I reading my maps wrong from the data output? I thought you pulled timing at higher RPMs and had more advance at lower revs

Here's my timing map. It looks flat in most places because it is. Actually going to do some fine tuning this week though!
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Old 09-03-2002, 10:02 AM   #19
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Impreza Rider - PM'ing you.
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Old 09-03-2002, 08:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Hmm, am I reading my maps wrong from the data output? I thought you pulled timing at higher RPMs and had more advance at lower revs

Here's my timing map. It looks flat in most places because it is. Actually going to do some fine tuning this week though!
Ummmm... do you really think you should be fiddling with that thing if you don't know?
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Old 09-03-2002, 09:25 PM   #21
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Larry - You learn by playing... as long as there is no ping and the EGT's are ok, then you're doing good. You may not be making the most power, but you are running just fine. I personally took an OBD-II log and started converting my map from there... so far so good.

Attached is Impreza Rider's map off his Link for his MY00. 100kpa = 1bar, so the 100kpa mark is where vacuum ends and boost begins.

I think I forgot something... the Link has a base 10 of timing, right? So add 10 to the table to get real timing...

Last edited by 8Complex; 09-04-2002 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 09-03-2002, 09:29 PM   #22
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just a note on my map...I could run more timing in the higher rpm's, but my injectors are maxing out at about 4500 rpm, so I went VERY conservitive on the timing.
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Old 09-03-2002, 09:50 PM   #23
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Quote:
Larry - You learn by playing... as long as there is no ping and the EGT's are ok, then you're doing good.
I know that, but when you get confused about when to advance & retard, maybe you should get help before tuning?

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Old 09-03-2002, 11:44 PM   #24
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Here are the results from Sunday's tuning session. Thx Hndatch.

I'm looking at boost values in teh 140-160 kpa range. 6-7psi.

This is probably going to be the limit for anything above atmospheric (106kpa) as I am getting some minor pinging at around 4000 rpm.

Where are all the MY99 tuners?
I think I'm running more timing than RallyNavvie.

I may or may not be overly advanced for any values while under vaccume. We could not tell if we were getting more or less power after a certain point. So I will have to wait to dyno the car before I can say the below atm map is complete.

My fueling has also completely changed.. I'm running a lot richer in parts of the map.. And I didn't touch the fuel curve.. So it must be timing.
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Old 09-03-2002, 11:45 PM   #25
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Here is the graph version. Another thing we tried was to smooth out the timing transitions for a smoother ride.. In Hndatch's words, "this is a completely different beast".
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