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Old 04-07-2013, 11:01 AM   #101
dr20t
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Vlad

Completely agree on the headgasket sealing properties. The oil passages line up perfectly with previous ej207 as well as ej205 and ej20y. Potentially could line up with other EJ20 type blocks (ej20g, k etc).

Coolant passages are a little different.

Both of these are visibly evident in the above pics I posted

One interesting thing you raise though is about cylinder support seating depth. If you're referring to the ~4mm difference in cylinder wall thickness between grb 207 (V10) and gdb (V 7,8,9), then I dont *think* this would cause any issue. I cannot confirm this with any degree of certainty but can say from experience that the highest pressure point would be toward the centre of the sealing ring (closest to the cylinder itself). Therefore, my theory is that so long as the sealing is equally efficient in both gaskets, the additional ~4mm of cylinder wall material wont affect sealing depth - if that makes sense??

In terms of the canbus setup and ecu \ immobiliser - my info shows me this:

A non-canbus ecu cannot run a V10 grb quad avcs 207 motor. My research shows me that no quad avcs motor was ever released in 16 bit ecu form. All vehicles originally released with quad avcs motors are listed below to my knowledge:

- MY04-MY06 JDM\AUDM Subaru Legacy 2.0 GT turbo (EJ20Y)

Details: Drive by wire (DBW), canbus, 32 bit ecu - 516kb memory. Quad avcs motor from the factory. BIU integrated with immobiliser.

- USDM \ AUDM \ EURO MY11 + GRB Sti EJ257.

Similar to above except quad avcs 2.5 litre with 1032kb memory ecu - integrated BIU \ immobiliser

- GRB JDM Sti - as we know this is the canbus setup EJ207 (exception being A-line Sti which was a 2.5 litre - dont know if this was a 257 or 255 motor - most likely the former)


Essentially with a canbus \ 32 bit ecu setup, the immobiliser is integrated into the BIU (Body Integrated Module) which is underneath the steering column (well at least for AUDM cars it is).

This synchronises with the dash gauge cluster which has the corresponding transponder chip to allow the canbus circuit to be complete.

It basically works like this:

ECU \ BIU \ Canbus chip in cluster \ Ignition module with FM transmitter \ Key

You need the above for a canbus setup to work. Any change to ANY one of the above breaks the chain and requires re-synchronising by Subaru.

Now if someone purchased a V10 DBW Ej207 quad avcs motor ON ITS OWN - the only way to make it work "as it is supposed to" is fit it into a car with an ecu capable of controlling all four AVCS solenoids \ cam gears. I say "as it is supposed to" because there has been talk on here and elsewhere of people thinking they can make a quad avcs motor work with only one side (either inlet or exhaust) being controlled by say a V 7\8\9 ECU - i cannot verify any of this.


To make it run as it should in a canbus vehicle would depend on the situation:

A)

i) Swapping into a canbus equipped, 32 bit ecu controlled vehicle that was originally quad AVCS - nothing required other than ensuring the sensors on the original motor in the vehicle are now compatible with the V10 EJ207 - for eg - in my car an AUDM liberty (legacy), i needed to swap cam position sensors over from my liberty onto the V10 GRB EJ207 motor to retain my original ecu - this way my original vehicle wiring harness could be retained. This involved modified the bolt spacing for the oem liberty sensor in order for it to line up on the GRB EJ207 motor.

The other example in this instance would be like arco \ lukeyswrx et al have done - which is swap cam gears and sensors over from the quad avcs ej257 into the quad avcs GRB EJ207 motor, so they can retain their original USDM 32 bit canbus driven ECU and use this to run the motor. No other mods should be required as you are only making mechanical \ hardware changes not electronic and thus not screwing around with the vehicle's original canbus setup - so all good here (except like i said above you lose some tunability if changing cam gears from a 257 into the 207)

ii) Swapping into a canbus equipped, 32 bit ecu controlled vehicle that did not have quad avcs originally:

Say for example a 2008 subaru legacy premium (originally N/A). I believe the best way would be to find a GRB JDM (V10) EJ207 ECU along with correspnding engine wiring harness in its entirety. You would then need to install these. The wiring harness from the engine bay to the ECU will be different (Im referring to the bulkhead wiring loom which runs from the ECU through the firewall to the engine bay and has a female connector on the end of it, which the engine bay wiring harness then plugs into). This will require the new wiring to be spliced into the original chassis wiring of the vehicle for certain functions (usual power, earth, triggers etc). I cannot comment on the difficulty this may pose as I have not done it, but would take a guess that this is not easy, but still easier than trying to transpose the same setup into a vehicle not originally equipped with canbus \ 32 bit ecu.

Once the JDM GRB V10 ECU \ wiring is in, it would be a matter of having the ECU re-synced with the BIU, gauge cluster etc and therefore re-complete the canbus circuit. Subaru can do this as essentially it is as if you are replacing a dead original ecu. As long as your original vehicle BIU, transponder chip in the cluster and fm transmitter on the ignition barrell is still ok, this should be a pretty easy step.

**NB - I should make note here to you USA folk that need to have yearly inspections done - doing the above will absolutely ensure there is no way you can ever go back to your original ecu again - period. So if the JDM V10 ecu will not pass emissions or whatever in your state, then DO NOT DO THIS.

Additional disclaimer - the above is mere speculation on my part based on what I have learnt about canbus equipped vehicles and the way they work, I cannot guarantee that the above will work as I have not personally completed it. It may well be that your original vehicle harness cannot accomodate the JDM GRB V10 EJ207 ecu - I am merely suggesting this as a potential fix *should* the wiring theoretically be able to be spliced.

B) Swapping into a non-canbus vehicle. I believe there are two ways to do this (there may be other ways but these are my thoughts on it):

i) Retain original vehicle's chassis \ vehicle harness as well as original engine harness.
Make up new wiring for the quad avcs triggers, connect these and repin the oem
ecu connectors to suit an aftermarket PNP stand-alone ECU. Something like a VIPEC
\ MOTEC \ HYDRA etc etc. This would allow control of the motor in full, without
affecting other circuits

ii) Swap the ECU, BIU, Ignition barrell, gauge cluster chip, key etc from a JDM GRB Sti
into the non-canbus vehicle. This would include almost a complete rewire of the
car, and in my opinion is a very very large exercise for a street car (track \ race car
would be easier as much less stuff in the way and dash can come off etc) - a
massive job by any stretch of the imagination.

I also believe with this approach that there could be other things affected such as
heater \ air con functionality, cruise control, abs, fuel pump control etc etc. This
may mean such an approach is not feasible.

In my case I am lucky as I have a 32 bit, canbus equipped , quad avcs vehicle from factory - so my ecu is able to run my new grb motor in its entirety without any problem. No swapping of cam gears or sensors etc is needed.

For those with say an 02-03 wrx, which originally came with DBC (cable throttle) and a 16 bit ecu, this may not be so feasible without switching to an aftermarket ecu.

These are my thoughts on the process. I am sure I have forgotten some more stuff so will update this thread as I remember more.

And fyi Vlad my motor is still not running due to various delays with other upgrades (fuel pump, twist mount mods etc) - tune is booked for this coming Wednesday 10th April so wish me luck

Mick
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Last edited by dr20t; 04-07-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:56 PM   #102
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great info here, thanks everyone for contributing! subscribed!
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:38 AM   #103
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Good Luck, Mick!
Let's bring the EJ207 crowd into the V10...
Myself included
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:17 AM   #104
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I will update the beginning of the tread soon.
I am still working to get my Mercedes W124 on the road, replacing the diesel W126, but should be done soon.

So Canbus-wise, for the guys that have a USDM Sti or even WRX, say with a bad engine, this is where we should try to get into as much detail as possible, I think.

Let's go into two subchapters for A

A1) Swap the GRB EJ207 into a GRB export body Sti/WRX (Such as a GRB USDM Sti), with keeping the JDM ECU.
We agree that the following are needed:
-ECU
-BIU
-Cluster
-Key ring antenna
-Keys

All the bove matching.

Now, you could avoid the problem of never being able to get spare keys made for this, by taping the original key under the dash.

Then, there is probably more to this:

I am reading from a German member that worked on something like this, that the I-drive stopped working.
I'm going to ask him to post here..

As far as state inspection, there are two problems:
-The year reported by the ECU is different than the government's records of your car. This will be more of a problem in the future, as these people are getting their act together and become thorough in looking at ECU info.
-The market of the ECU reads different
-There is no OBD2 connectivity. With a successful Canbus swap, this should not be a problem, because with canbus, a new level of OBD2 standardization has been reached, OBD2 wise. I think that now ALL ecu will talk to the testing machine.

So, to solve the above first two, there is some thinking that has to go into this. The USDM ECU can only go back in with it's own BIU, cluster and keys.

Let's think about the ignition lock-module for a second:

-To me this may just be an antenna together with a mechanical lock in the traditional configuration.
This may be transparent to the JDM-USDM configuration.
If this is true, you can keep your USDM lock and tape the JDM key underneath.
When you start the car with the JDM ECU, you can start it with the USDM key.
When you start it with the USDM ECU, start it with the USDM key.

So this makes the JDM-USDM configuration change a cluster-ECU-BIU change.
Somewhat do-able in one afternoon, I would think...

Both engines have TGV's, there is nothing to disable there.
There is probably no Cruise control and a different I-drive, which may be silenced with the force-readiness setting.

A2) Swap the GRB and control it with the USDM ECU.

My experience with looking at parts is that Subaru implements changes more or less (few notable exceptions, such as twinscroll) globally.
So the NPS, TGV, etc from a year model in Japan is likely the same in US EU or AUS.
The "new style this or that", many times occurs the same year.

The GDB USDM Sti was at it's time a white elefant. It was the first to be drive by wire, etc etc..
The issues with adapting sensors from USDM to JDM contemporary engines will very likely not occur between GRB EJ207 and EJ257, especially from the same year.

My forecast is that the harness will plug right into the EJ207 sensors.

There is the issue of the limited cam advance with the EJ257, but this becomes a software issue, with this swap, because the EJ07 is completely there, hardware-wise.
So maybe it could be possible to reflash the USDM ECU with JDM tables or edit the table rows and collumns to account for a higher angle of cam advance.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:24 AM   #105
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In order to control a v10 ej207 with the usdm 32 bit ecu (say from a 2012 model grb Sti which came with an ej257 from factory), I'm pretty sure you would need to swap some sensors over including the cam gear

The ej257 quad avcs is slightly different to the ej207 quad avcs - the cam gears are different for starters. That is for certain. I'm pretty sure the inlet cam sensors are also different (2 pin vs 3 pin), but cannot confirm this for sure (unless someone with a quad avcs 257 wants to confirm what type of cam sensor they have)

Another thing I think you will find is that the immobilizer system is synced each time the key is put into the ignition, switched and then started. Each cycle as described will then create a new 'bandwidth' for the system to use (ie new frequency from the key to the ignition barrel transmitter to the biu to the ecu)

Therefore I think the taping of the key to the dash etc may not work.

If you were going to the effort of doing the swap Into a grb canbus usdm car, I'm pretty sure you could flash a jdm grb rom onto the usdm ecu and in that way use the jdm cams and cam gears (but depending on the answer to my question above, you may still need to change cam position sensors).

I think this would be the easiest way for the swap. No ecu, biu or canbus interruptions - basically just fooling the ecu to run a new map. There is plenty of memory on these ecu's (1032kb) which would allow the tune for sure.

I believe those that have completed the v10 swap and then used usdm cams and cam gears etc only did so because they retained the usdm ecu and map which uses a different method for detecting and reading the cams. Would be interesting to hear from these guys and their thoughts.

The s-I drive is interesting because it means you can switch maps basically between them, and since the usdm and jdm cars came with this option, I don't see a reason why this can't work

For me, with my audm liberty quad avcs ej20y, my ecu is only 516kb and therefore cannot support the si drive functions (even though I have retrofitted this centre console into my car which I could try make work with a grb jdm ecu if I ever got my hands on one)
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:02 AM   #106
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Look, I think I can bring this into the fact realm.
Let's take a look at sensor part numbers.
If you go to Japanparts, put in the GRB and look at the A B and C cam sensors.
If you go to order them, see how they specify "for 207 and 257?", they must be the same.

Also, The V9 JDM with USDM ECU, which these guys adapted the swap, like you pointed out is:
-Throttle by wire technology, which is coupled, like you said, with different cam detection technology than throttle by cable.
- the GRB to GRB swap would be throttle by wire to throttle by wire, same cam detection technology.

The things with the frequencies that you're mentioning, sounds vaguely similar with what i was reading about the immobilizer algorythm for my wife's BMW.
There is a complex process of validation and in the end the BIU releases the ignition to the ECU. The BMW E36 have had aftermarket alarms installed by means of taping the key in there.
I can ask a question in the electrical forum, to see if any of the GRB guys got a remote starter and if they still tape the key in there, like they did in the past with GDB.

Last edited by Vlad; 04-11-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:06 AM   #107
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Oh wait:
you describe by V10 a GDB Sti EJ207 engine from 2006?
I think we agreed on terms, at least for this thread, but I recall that in AUS, you guys go upto V11 before going into GRB, right?

Here, a V9 is a 2005-2007 JDM GDB EJ207 engine.
A V10 is a GRB 2008 + Ej207 engine. These are the beginning of the current body style, with AVCS both intake and exhaust.

Honestly, I am getting ready to roll out the V11 category, as looking at Subaru parts, The JDM is seeing two categories, 2008-2009 and 2010+

I also think that the Spec C went through the VF49 and is currently using something different, for the V11.
The confusion is because, Like we discussed, there were in 2008 some non spec C EJ207 twinscroll engines, which may or may not have used the VF49.
Then there is a bit of confusion due to the R205 and S206 using possibly different turbos each of them and then the Spec C, like I said currently having a different turbo than VF49.

Last edited by Vlad; 04-11-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:29 AM   #108
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About the cam gears:

Here you have the engine AND cams AND sprockets AND sensors going in together, with the GRB swap.
The problem that they are seeing with reduced AVCS range with that V9-USDM swap, should not apply.
Because, yes, there has to be a difference, sprocket, cam or somewhere, that causes the JDM EJ207 to have so much more AVCS rance on both intake and exhaust, in GRB.

So whatever the USDM ECU needs (mechanical stop wise), to turn those cames to a high AVCS advance, it gets, and so hopefully a reflash takes care of the rest. (and I think we're saying the same thing)

Last edited by Vlad; 04-11-2013 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:52 AM   #109
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Haha sorry you are indeed correct we are saying the same thing

My grb 207 went straight in as is. Long block only that is. I used my liberty plastic manifold and my billet fuel rails although switched from id1000 to 2000's for the anticipated power I'm chasing.

Only thing I changed were exhaust cam sensors. I put the ones from my quad avcs liberty in as these were 2 pin and the grb 207 exhaust cam sensors were 3 pin. To enable me to use my factory liberty ecu and wiring meant I needed to change these and the right side needed modding but left side went straight in.

The inlet cam sensors were identical to the liberty ones (2 pin, same diameter etc) so did not change these.

So grb cams, grb cam gears, grb avcs solenoids, grb inlet cam sensors, audm liberty exhaust cam sensors. Remaining long block is grb 207.

Inlet manifold is Subaru liberty plastic version. Exhaust is aftermarket equal length stainless, with custom up-pipe for my twist mounted gtx3076.

I'm retaining the factory liberty 32 bit ecu, biu, cluster and ignition barrell.


*edit - only saw your last post not the two above*

For the sake of clarity I believe it's best to refer to body shape rather than "version X" designation (which is what you were trying to do at the beginning of this thread :lol)

I am simply saying that to swap a grb jdm 207 into a dbw 32 bit canbus equipped vehicle which had quad avcs from factory should not be a problem. Infact the usdm ecu should be fine

Thanks to your research and resources, you have clarified alot of part numbers which alleviates the ambiguity surrounding these swaps.

If the cam sensors are the same part numbers between usdm quad avcs 257 and the jdm grb 207 then that's perfect ! Means alot more of the usdm guys can swap this brilliant motor in alot easier than initially thought.

Swap motor, run factory usdm grb wiring to factory usdm ecu, flash a jdm grb 207 base tune and have it fine-tuned to suit - and you should have a running jdm grb 207 in your usdm grb

Mick

Last edited by dr20t; 04-11-2013 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:47 AM   #110
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Hello all, I just picked up an ej207 V7 swapped bugeye yesterday, it's having some starting issues, starter makes a grinding sound, and sometimes nothing at all, then it randomly starts after a couple grinds. My question is what starter is compatible with this motor? And where could I find it? I read that the V7 has two different started that will fit but only one fits perfect?
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:01 AM   #111
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Z, fill your profile.
Are you in Europe?
Swapped with what V7?
Are you in Zurich and you picked up a EUDM WRX Bugeye swapped with a EUDM V7 EJ207 Sti engine?
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:46 PM   #112
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUBARU-IMPRE...item27d3257d77


was wondering if this ecu version 7 type-ra will work with my version 7 sti motor and harness is there any difference between a version 7 and version 7 type-RA ????? please help im in need of a version 7 ECU
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:59 PM   #113
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The 22611AF470 does not show in the list.
It looks like a GD ECU so I don't think it's a GC8.
Let me look in the part numbers.

If it's a V7 ECU, it should work with a V7 engine.
The RA had slightly bigger ports, most likely flowed more air, so one thing that comes to mind is you will have to change calibrations for the air flow.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:04 PM   #114
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The 470 was substituted by 471. Neither are for any EJ207, they are for EJ205 manual transmission.
The 480 was for 207. Its good for RA and non RA.
If this is indeed 470, don't buy it.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:59 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichone95 View Post
Hello all, I just picked up an ej207 V7 swapped bugeye yesterday, it's having some starting issues, starter makes a grinding sound, and sometimes nothing at all, then it randomly starts after a couple grinds. My question is what starter is compatible with this motor? And where could I find it? I read that the V7 has two different started that will fit but only one fits perfect?
all subaru starters are interchangeable. the engine doesnt matter since it bolts to the tranny anyways.
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:23 AM   #116
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All I have to say is... if you're doing a v5/6 swap on a gc; BUY THE CLIP! do NOT buy the engine and tranny and think it'll be a walk in the park...
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:41 AM   #117
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On a jdm Ver 8 sti, are the rear cam sensors the same as the front one by the oil fill
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:04 AM   #118
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I don't have time to look at parts now, but there are:
-Two active valve control solenoids, at the front, left and right
-Two active valve control angle sensors left and right, these I think are at the back and are designed like the TGV motor-sensor pairs, to issue the angle signal.
-One camshaft position sensor and one crankshaft position sensor, these should be at the front and are signal generator sensors.

because they serve different purposes, I believe they should be different than the angle position sensors. If I have time, I'll look later at part numbers.
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:05 PM   #119
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Hey guys..so my Saabaru was on the dyno just doing baseline runs before it got tuned. The ecu, for whatever reason, didn't let the motor rev past 7k. Jermaine said there were no signs of detonation, and the turbo generates about 16psi during the few pulls he did.

What do you think is wrong here? Of course, as luck would have it, the scan tool they have was in another car. I have an accessport v1 at home but didn't bring it cause I didn't think I would need it!

Any thoughts would b much appreciated.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:13 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
About the cam gears:

Here you have the engine AND cams AND sprockets AND sensors going in together, with the GRB swap.
The problem that they are seeing with reduced AVCS range with that V9-USDM swap, should not apply.
Because, yes, there has to be a difference, sprocket, cam or somewhere, that causes the JDM EJ207 to have so much more AVCS rance on both intake and exhaust, in GRB.

So whatever the USDM ECU needs (mechanical stop wise), to turn those cames to a high AVCS advance, it gets, and so hopefully a reflash takes care of the rest. (and I think we're saying the same thing)
With some tinkering and research we found the limit on the AVCS advance is in the solenoids themselves. We had no problem running 257 cam gears and cams to +40 on a 32bit ecu as long as you use the JDM solenoids. This was on a JDM V9 motor and a 05 USDM forester with the stock 32bit ecu.
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:19 AM   #121
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Thanks for posting this. There is very little AVCS info even in the factory literature, other than general removal-install stuff.
Supposedly, the GRB EJ207 takes AVCS a step even further angles-wise.
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:10 AM   #122
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I added some maintenance data, from the Sti, WRX and Spec C, JDM Owner's manual.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:00 PM   #123
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GRB EJ207 info:
part no. for group n grb ej207 block havles is 11008AB210,
same as all grb block halves so looks like all the grb ej207's have the thick bore liners (3/4 closed deck).
I will be ordering one from japanparts in the next month using that part no. so i'll let everyone know then for sure.

cheers,
Martin.

scroll down a bit
http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/30.html

block ordered for grb spec c

Last edited by 0STI6; 08-06-2013 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:16 AM   #124
Vlad
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Thanks for the info Martin, I'll wait for the confirmation, then update the info.
What kind of build are you planning, with the GRB block?
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:33 AM   #125
0STI6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
Thanks for the info Martin, I'll wait for the confirmation, then update the info.
What kind of build are you planning, with the GRB block?
Also just received this email from Ken from Autotek Motorsport who build rally cars in the UK

Hello Martin

The part number for the 2.0 GRB block, remains the same 08-13.

So as far as I can tell, its the same block

We have one new one in stock, the price is 1,600.

Best regards Ken



My build will most prob be a 2.1 long rod with the Jdm grb sti dual avcs heads with cams and 14mm head studs. Will be getting in contact with Dom from MPS for internals soon.
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