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Old 11-01-2012, 05:01 PM   #176
Crystal_Imprezav
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You can still see the carbon deposits on the both seats and the exhaust guides. Also Ferrera guides are bronze and the ones in the picture appear to be stock iron guides.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:14 PM   #177
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Good eye ^^^^
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:58 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav
You can still see the carbon deposits on the both seats and the exhaust guides. Also Ferrera guides are bronze and the ones in the picture appear to be stock iron guides.
You are correct!
Not trying to post wrong information bcz it doesn't do anybody any good and feel stupid now since I didn't notice it till you brought it up lol

Apparently the guides were not damaged from head failure so these are indeed the stock guides and the ferreas I bought are in one of my many parts boxes I have not went through yet(smh)... sorry about that!

Edited post but all other info has been verified to be correct! :-)
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:08 PM   #179
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If I were you I would double check your tune also,I have seen the std cp wrist pins hold up to more power and trq than you were at,I would have to guess at this point and say you saw some serious det or something to bend the wrist pins enough to take out the rod end bushings.Just my thoughts to help you so you don't run into any more issues with the new build. GL
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:18 PM   #180
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^+123

Case bolts are a very rare topic, so many folks run oem case bolts without issue.

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Old 11-01-2012, 11:07 PM   #181
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Was just looking out for you as many machine shops will just feed you BS. As for the rest, to me, it looks like whoever assembled the heads last time failed to check the casting where it was damaged for contact when everything was warm. As a rule, you generally want +.002 at any point that potentially may make contact. I would guess, the cam made contact with the head causing it to deform the lobe and therefore upset geometry and kill the bucket.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:11 AM   #182
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^^^^good call jeff I agree.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:47 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI
If I were you I would double check your tune also,I have seen the std cp wrist pins hold up to more power and trq than you were at,I would have to guess at this point and say you saw some serious det or something to bend the wrist pins enough to take out the rod end bushings.Just my thoughts to help you so you don't run into any more issues with the new build. GL
The last of my worries is the tune but I understand the logic behind your reasoning with what happen to the wristpins...

Nate is an amazing tuner with many years of experience and has built/tuned way more powerful cars than mine so this is not his first rodeo lol

Nate and I have made sure everything is in perfect working order and has everything needed to achieve the 600whp mark once we have everything back together this upcoming week most likely!

Last edited by baseballdbk1; 11-02-2012 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:14 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Was just looking out for you as many machine shops will just feed you BS. As for the rest, to me, it looks like whoever assembled the heads last time failed to check the casting where it was damaged for contact when everything was warm. As a rule, you generally want +.002 at any point that potentially may make contact. I would guess, the cam made contact with the head causing it to deform the lobe and therefore upset geometry and kill the bucket.
Thanks for looking out but I can assure you that this is not one of "those" type of shops...

The machinist who did my work is very honest and does amazing work!
He kept me very up-to-date with how things were coming along, put in a lot of hours of work into making things were as close to perfect as possible, documented all of my clearances, bearing sizes, etc. and gave me a copy of everything encase I ever wanted to look back to see what my clearances were set at as well!

As far as the camshaft, I can guarantee you that the camshaft did not hit the casing because he set them to .006 clearance just like he did for the 220-D cams that are in the pictures I most recently posted and the casing around the bucket showed no sign of being hit on disassembly after the failure

It is very hard to point the figure at one part vs the other as to what caused the lobe to grind down through the bucket and break the valve stem which sucks but oh well and move on...
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:37 AM   #185
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Got some more work done tonight but not on the engine...

Since I love wiring so much, I started to dig through the wiring harness and get rid of the connectors I am no longer using such as tgv, egr, etc and clean it up so not as much of the harness will be visible once installed!

Will be finishing it up once we get back from MIR for the import vs domestic shootout this weekend!

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Old 11-02-2012, 08:19 PM   #186
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just out of curiousity which lobe on which cam ate itself and the bucket?Depending on what you say I may have a reason for what happened---something Kevin Ban(owner of kelford cams)and I figured out years ago.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:34 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI
just out of curiousity which lobe on which cam ate itself and the bucket?Depending on what you say I may have a reason for what happened---something Kevin Ban(owner of kelford cams)and I figured out years ago.
Passenger side intake cam
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:42 PM   #188
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was it the rear lobe?also when the motor was first started was it ran at 1500 to 1800 rpm idle for the first 20 minutes or did it idle down gradually like stock?
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:48 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI
was it the rear lobe?also when the motor was first started was it ran at 1500 to 1800 rpm idle for the first 20 minutes or did it idle down gradually like stock?
Idle like stock around 1100...
I am almost positive it was the rear lobe actually but not 100% for sure
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:59 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballdbk1 View Post
The last of my worries is the tune but I understand the logic behind your reasoning with what happen to the wristpins...

Nate is an amazing tuner with many years of experience and has built/tuned way more powerful cars than mine so this is not his first rodeo lol

Nate and I have made sure everything is in perfect working order and has everything needed to achieve the 600whp mark once we have everything back together this upcoming week most likely!
Even if that is true, all the issues with the engine you listed suggest massive crankcase pressures.

Nothing about your old power level is pushing case bolts or wrist pins.

Maybe look at other issues that caused it.

Either way good luck with the new motor.
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Old 11-03-2012, 02:43 PM   #191
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if those were new cams in your build the car HAS to be run for 15 minutes at 1500-1800 rpm for the cams to seat in,if the idle went down like stock then cams do not stay properly lubricated during the initial start and run.It is easy over there since they are dbc to bump up the idle whereas over here we are dbw which is a little harder to do without the proper software.Once again I will say the idle on brand new cams(and recommend new buckets also)has to be above 1500 rpm for the first 15 minutes or what you had happen will happen.
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:49 PM   #192
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if those were new cams in your build the car HAS to be run for 15 minutes at 1500-1800 rpm for the cams to seat in,if the idle went down like stock then cams do not stay properly lubricated during the initial start and run.It is easy over there since they are dbc to bump up the idle whereas over here we are dbw which is a little harder to do without the proper software.Once again I will say the idle on brand new cams(and recommend new buckets also)has to be above 1500 rpm for the first 15 minutes or what you had happen will happen.
Really? Very interesting! I wonder why Nate didn't do that since this isn't his first rodeo and he has built and tuned way more powerful cars than this one. I'm sure he must have his reasons as I have 100% confidence in his abilities as a tuner and engine builder.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:41 PM   #193
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Well all I have to say is I would have to say if he didn't do it on other builds with new aftermarket cams he got lucky and/or the other builds just reused the stock cams.When the guy who owns Kelford tells you it is imperative that the cams are broken in a certain way you listen,remember he grinds the cams for the Rigoli's and a few other badass suby builders from downunder.
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:31 PM   #194
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I agree cams should be broke in for 15-20 mins at 1800-2000 rpms
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:24 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582
Really? Very interesting! I wonder why Nate didn't do that since this isn't his first rodeo and he has built and tuned way more powerful cars than this one. I'm sure he must have his reasons as I have 100% confidence in his abilities as a tuner and engine builder.
MRF how nice of you to join the conversation in such polite manner even though I know you are probably busy reading dyno graphs...

Yes the cam was broken in the proper way according to kelfords specifications so no need for your smartass remarks on the internet bcz we know you can not back them up in person ;-)
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:33 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI
Well all I have to say is I would have to say if he didn't do it on other builds with new aftermarket cams he got lucky and/or the other builds just reused the stock cams.When the guy who owns Kelford tells you it is imperative that the cams are broken in a certain way you listen,remember he grinds the cams for the Rigoli's and a few other badass suby builders from downunder.
Yes the cams were broken in properly...
When asked early if it came back down idle properly I was only thinking of a normal engine startup but yes it was done properly
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:41 PM   #197
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ok just trying to give you some info from my personal experience to help you avoid anything like it happening again.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:32 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
was it the rear lobe?also when the motor was first started was it ran at 1500 to 1800 rpm idle for the first 20 minutes or did it idle down gradually like stock?
Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballdbk1 View Post
Idle like stock around 1100...
Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballdbk1 View Post
Yes the cams were broken in properly...
When asked early if it came back down idle properly I was only thinking of a normal engine startup but yes it was done properly


Quoted for posterity!
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:42 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
if those were new cams in your build the car HAS to be run for 15 minutes at 1500-1800 rpm for the cams to seat in,if the idle went down like stock then cams do not stay properly lubricated during the initial start and run.It is easy over there since they are dbc to bump up the idle whereas over here we are dbw which is a little harder to do without the proper software.Once again I will say the idle on brand new cams(and recommend new buckets also)has to be above 1500 rpm for the first 15 minutes or what you had happen will happen.
Maybe a thread in bmd/sticky on this is in order. Just as a reminder for most people if they aren't clear on the process. Obviously most people must be doing it correctly, but who knows.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:10 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582



Quoted for posterity!
MRF what are you trying to prove?

I admitted I misunderstood what was being asked, stated that the cam was broken in properly and also stated it was the rear lobe?

Should we discuss this on Wednesday? :-)
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