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Old 08-11-2012, 10:42 PM   #1
SkateAndDestroy
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Default Loading a MT ptm file to a AT car

Strange question.

Any possible way of loading a map designed for a 04 Forester XT Manual Trans into a 04 Forester XT Auto Trans? I have the map loaded onto the accessport but it is grayed out for obvious reasons.

The reason being, the auto trans has a fuel cut during wide open throttle shifts, leaning out the air/fuel ratios enough(from say 11 to 18!) to cause lots of timing being pulled. I believe it is there to spare the transmission. Loading up a manual trans file will prevent the fuel cut from happening, proven by Open Source users loading up MT maps on their AT cars.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:16 AM   #2
bacalhau16
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Im not 100%, but something tells me that if you download accessport race tune software, you may be able to fix that by adjusting an AT map.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:26 AM   #3
SkateAndDestroy
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I use the AccessTuner Race software, nothing in there to adjust to remedy the fuel cut. If the table exists, it isn't defined.
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:11 AM   #4
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Hmmm, I wouldve thought you might be able to control that through the software. Hope you figure it out, Im sure someone will help you out soon.
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:55 AM   #5
jkunze
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Have you asked your question about this over in the cobbforums? Chris and Bill @ COBB are usually good about answering many of these questions.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:57 AM   #6
Cobb Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkateAndDestroy View Post
Strange question.

Any possible way of loading a map designed for a 04 Forester XT Manual Trans into a 04 Forester XT Auto Trans? I have the map loaded onto the accessport but it is grayed out for obvious reasons.

The reason being, the auto trans has a fuel cut during wide open throttle shifts, leaning out the air/fuel ratios enough(from say 11 to 18!) to cause lots of timing being pulled. I believe it is there to spare the transmission. Loading up a manual trans file will prevent the fuel cut from happening, proven by Open Source users loading up MT maps on their AT cars.
The AccessPORT will not allow you to your reflash a map for a different transmission than the image that is reflashed to the ECU when you installed the AccessPORT. This is a safety feature as not all images are compatible in that way and can potentially cause major issues (such as a bricked ECU). That may not be the case here, but we want to make sure there are no possibilities of this happening.

Do you have any links to threads that describe the issue you are talking about? The AT ECUs do pull timing on shifts (this is a configurable parameter in the AccessTUNER software), but this is not in response to knock but a means to allow for a smoother shift. You could certainly reflash a MT ROM using OS tools after uninstalling the AccessPORT and then reinstall the AccessPORT and then it would recognize your car as MT and allow you to install MT maps. But, I wouldn't recommend that.

Bill
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:06 PM   #7
SkateAndDestroy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
The AccessPORT will not allow you to your reflash a map for a different transmission than the image that is reflashed to the ECU when you installed the AccessPORT. This is a safety feature as not all images are compatible in that way and can potentially cause major issues (such as a bricked ECU). That may not be the case here, but we want to make sure there are no possibilities of this happening.

Do you have any links to threads that describe the issue you are talking about? The AT ECUs do pull timing on shifts (this is a configurable parameter in the AccessTUNER software), but this is not in response to knock but a means to allow for a smoother shift. You could certainly reflash a MT ROM using OS tools after uninstalling the AccessPORT and then reinstall the AccessPORT and then it would recognize your car as MT and allow you to install MT maps. But, I wouldn't recommend that.

Bill
Thanks for the reply. I've seen the newer Foresters 09-10 and the LGT's have a table called Ignition Timing Compensation(AT Shift Retard) where you can adjust the amount of timing being pulled on the shift based on the throttle position, but nothing like that in my ROM, the 04 Forester XT.

I'm not sure if those models cut the fuel on the shift like mine, but my IDC goes down to 2-3%, and my wideband will read between 16-18 during the shift. It will even knock when running E85. This log below was on a previous tune, but the same concept is happening. I didn't have IDC or my A/F logged in this log, but you can see the timing being pulled once it lands into the next gear. In that log we tried closing the throttle right before the shift, which lowered the boost, but it would still pull timing. We have also tried to add a bunch of fuel right before the shift, which didn't help either. The only thing that has really helped is to keep the timing for the whole tune mild, and pull a few extra degrees out between 4800-5000 where the next gear lands. However you can feel the dip in power there when you do a pull in a single gear.

There is also a link to the Cobb Forums, where someone was asking you about this last year, he posted one of his logs too.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...yWU81a3c#gid=0

https://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums...-Shift-problem
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Old 08-31-2012, 08:39 AM   #8
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by SkateAndDestroy View Post
Thanks for the reply. I've seen the newer Foresters 09-10 and the LGT's have a table called Ignition Timing Compensation(AT Shift Retard) where you can adjust the amount of timing being pulled on the shift based on the throttle position, but nothing like that in my ROM, the 04 Forester XT.

I'm not sure if those models cut the fuel on the shift like mine, but my IDC goes down to 2-3%, and my wideband will read between 16-18 during the shift. It will even knock when running E85. This log below was on a previous tune, but the same concept is happening. I didn't have IDC or my A/F logged in this log, but you can see the timing being pulled once it lands into the next gear. In that log we tried closing the throttle right before the shift, which lowered the boost, but it would still pull timing. We have also tried to add a bunch of fuel right before the shift, which didn't help either. The only thing that has really helped is to keep the timing for the whole tune mild, and pull a few extra degrees out between 4800-5000 where the next gear lands. However you can feel the dip in power there when you do a pull in a single gear.

There is also a link to the Cobb Forums, where someone was asking you about this last year, he posted one of his logs too.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...yWU81a3c#gid=0

https://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums...-Shift-problem
Next time I do discovery work, I'll take a look at the AT ign. timing comp for earlier ECUs as well as the AT-commanded fuel cut to see if there is any tuning capability there. It might be a while before I would get a chance to work on this, however, as we have a lot of stuff going on right now.

By nature of a fuel cut, you have no fuel and therefore no combustion. The wideband will read lean with fuel cut because you are simply pumping air (you may not see it peg lean as you would expect as the resolution is simply not there for a very brief fuel cut). The fuel cut may just be a red herring here. Is the knock intermittent? Can you post the other logs showing the tuning changes you've attempted and the results (reduced throttle/boost, timing/fuel changes, etc.)?

Certainly, if you'd like to try the MT ROM with the AccessPORT, you can get one of the cheap ~$10 VAG-COM cables that work with Ecuflash and your ECU and reflash it to a stock MT ROM (uninstalling the AccessPORT before doing so). Then when you install the AccessPORT, it will recognize the ECU as MT and install the MT maps. I wouldn't recommend flashing incorrect ROM normally, but if you know someone else who has done this on an 04 FXT without issue, then you'll likely be fine (you can always flash back to the AT ROM if there are problems as long as flashing the MT ROM doesn't cause issues with the reflash procedure). There could be various issues in running it however, that might not be immediately apparent. There is a ton of variation in the ECU calibration and logic when it comes to AT vs. MT - it would be difficult to predict what the downsides will be due to that complexity.

Bill
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:23 PM   #9
SkateAndDestroy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Next time I do discovery work, I'll take a look at the AT ign. timing comp for earlier ECUs as well as the AT-commanded fuel cut to see if there is any tuning capability there. It might be a while before I would get a chance to work on this, however, as we have a lot of stuff going on right now.

By nature of a fuel cut, you have no fuel and therefore no combustion. The wideband will read lean with fuel cut because you are simply pumping air (you may not see it peg lean as you would expect as the resolution is simply not there for a very brief fuel cut). The fuel cut may just be a red herring here. Is the knock intermittent? Can you post the other logs showing the tuning changes you've attempted and the results (reduced throttle/boost, timing/fuel changes, etc.)?

Certainly, if you'd like to try the MT ROM with the AccessPORT, you can get one of the cheap ~$10 VAG-COM cables that work with Ecuflash and your ECU and reflash it to a stock MT ROM (uninstalling the AccessPORT before doing so). Then when you install the AccessPORT, it will recognize the ECU as MT and install the MT maps. I wouldn't recommend flashing incorrect ROM normally, but if you know someone else who has done this on an 04 FXT without issue, then you'll likely be fine (you can always flash back to the AT ROM if there are problems as long as flashing the MT ROM doesn't cause issues with the reflash procedure). There could be various issues in running it however, that might not be immediately apparent. There is a ton of variation in the ECU calibration and logic when it comes to AT vs. MT - it would be difficult to predict what the downsides will be due to that complexity.

Bill
About two weeks ago I did uninstall the Accessport and flash over with EcuFlash the MT map. So far so good, no fuel cut, no knock. The air fuels stay stable through the shift. I haven't tried flashing the Accessport over the Open Source yet however. A check engine light did pop up for the neutral safety switch which I was able to clear. There are one or two little quirks about running the MT map, but nothing major. Mainly when coasting to a stop, the rpms will drop down to the idle target sooner. Also on cold starts when shifting from Park to Reverse/Drive the idle doesn't drop down as low as it would on the AT map, I just have to hold the brake pedal down a little holder to keep the car from going. I ended up just dropping the cold start idle down about 200 rpms, which cured this.

I don't have any logs of the tuning changes, as they were a long time ago. I have been trying to figure this out for a few years and kinda just gave up and learned to live with it, lol. But I have noticed the first pull or possibly the second one too at the track, were usually clean passes without knock. Once the car got hotter, from then on I would see the shift knock. The most it has pulled was 6 degrees, usually it is just 2, sometimes 4.

I do miss the live tuning features of the Access Tuner Race Ideally, I'd love to use the AT map if it had something that could allow me to tune around the fuel cut.

I believe the older WRX's (02-03?) use the same map with the Accessport, regardless of AT/MT correct?
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:43 AM   #10
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by SkateAndDestroy View Post
About two weeks ago I did uninstall the Accessport and flash over with EcuFlash the MT map. So far so good, no fuel cut, no knock. The air fuels stay stable through the shift. I haven't tried flashing the Accessport over the Open Source yet however. A check engine light did pop up for the neutral safety switch which I was able to clear. There are one or two little quirks about running the MT map, but nothing major. Mainly when coasting to a stop, the rpms will drop down to the idle target sooner. Also on cold starts when shifting from Park to Reverse/Drive the idle doesn't drop down as low as it would on the AT map, I just have to hold the brake pedal down a little holder to keep the car from going. I ended up just dropping the cold start idle down about 200 rpms, which cured this.

I don't have any logs of the tuning changes, as they were a long time ago. I have been trying to figure this out for a few years and kinda just gave up and learned to live with it, lol. But I have noticed the first pull or possibly the second one too at the track, were usually clean passes without knock. Once the car got hotter, from then on I would see the shift knock. The most it has pulled was 6 degrees, usually it is just 2, sometimes 4.

I do miss the live tuning features of the Access Tuner Race Ideally, I'd love to use the AT map if it had something that could allow me to tune around the fuel cut.

I believe the older WRX's (02-03?) use the same map with the Accessport, regardless of AT/MT correct?
The 02 WRX ECU (which is also compatible with the 03 WRX) can dynamically switch between MT and AT maps. All the rest of the turbo Subaru ECUs (for the most part) have the same capability inherent to the ECU, but have it set up so that a given ROM is fixed to a specific transmission regardless.

With a version 2 AccessPORT, you could now install it and it will recognize your ECU as the MT version and use (as well as tune) the MT maps.

I wouldn't assume that the fuel cut is the issue here. It may be that the ign. timing correction for AT on shifts causes knock due to the large, quick swing in advance after the shift (at full boost). Which is why the reduction in timing helped in that area. Hopefully we can get that looked into in the future and add that capability to tune it (for older ECUs) if that is possible in the OEM code.

Bill
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