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Old 08-14-2012, 02:12 AM   #26
MaddMax
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1) I really don't see how that would compromise structural integrity at all.

2) There should be a return law in your state that would allow for you to return the car within 2 to 4 weeks of purchase with little money lost.

3) Asking for a replacement car is entirely acceptable.

4) This issue is clearly not damage. It's a defect. The panel was e-coated that way. That's shocking to me because I've seen auto bodies built in person and usually if the machine welding the panels together senses the most minor of problems, the issue is flagged or the process halted. That is a major defect. If the machine didn't catch it, then how in the world did it get past a QC inspection?


I think Toyota/Subaru has a manufacturing problem on their hands because I've read about BRZ/FRSs being delivered with body panel fitment problems.
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:22 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge86 View Post
Replacement is perfectly fair. I paid for a brand new car, not one with an accident history and frame damage.

The person that said the BRZ handles better, you are right. The spring rates are different.
Yep, because there's a noticeable difference in spring rates..

You paid for a car with damage that YOU looked at. You personally saw the damage, yourself. You said so. You were okay with this damage when you drove it off the lot. That's not the dealers fault.

I mean, they're in the wrong for selling the car. But if I go to a car place, and they show me wheel rub, I can't just drive it off the lot and later come back and say naww, this isn't gonna fly with me.

Next time, if you're going to be this particular about your car, don't accept the damage being there in the first place.
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:57 AM   #28
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I saw it after all of the paper work was complete. They are a dealership and saw it as well. If anything they are in a worse position for letting me drive it off the lot. They were the last possible quality checkpoint as well as Toyota professionals, and they still let it go. If it were no big deal, I can't imagine corporate scion Toyota would be calling me 2-3 times a day on this. So far they are doing pretty good and I can't make any real comment until they complete the process. If its not that big of a deal, they won't mind getting the car back, fixing it, and selling it as a used model. To a company that boasts so much about the quality of their processes/ product, this is a fairly big deal. They are probably hoping a machine wasnt making this mistake and sent a days worth of cars through the line before they fixed the setting.

The spring rates make a difference. I can see how driving a soft car to and from the grocery store and to school could distort someone's view on things like suspension set ups, but every comparison review on these cars mentions how noticeable the suspension set ups are when used for spirited driving.
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:58 AM   #29
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^^^ obviously he didn't notice the frame damage until after the paperwork was already done so what the hell difference would it have made if he didn't drive off the lot at that point? i think he has every right to be upset and Scion should take that car back. my 2 cents
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:08 AM   #30
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I guess the other argument would be that if that part doesn't do anything, why put it on the car at all? It's not an extra latch, or a vent in the fender, it is a brace on the frame.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:50 AM   #31
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In circumstances such as these, don't listen to people's speculations and jibber jabber on forums. Hire an attorney, follow attorneys advice.

I'd delete these pics, and keep it as quiet as possible. Meanwhile keeping full documentation as to EVERYTHING from recording conversations, etc.. For trial, media exposure, etc..

You potentially caught a design flaw in their machining/assembly of the vehicle, which could potentially save them hundreds of thousands of dollars.. Keep it quiet and heed to advice from attorneys. Who knows.. Toyota may GIVE you the car free (repaired) with a gag order. They may also give you a sum of undisclosed $$.

You have questions, Write them down. Consult an attorney.

At a minimum, I would settle for nothing less than a full vehicle replacement at dealer's invoice. (way below msrp) because it was as much the dealerships fault, as the manufacturer.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:13 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All4bSpinnin View Post
most auctions in the US do not consider what is in the picture above as frame damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcclea1 View Post
OP go look up the NAAA guidelines for structural damage so you know where you really stand on whether or not the vehicle has unibody damage. That policy is what the auctions use and most all dealers go by it as well. Hope it all works out for u
Correct, NAAA does not consider this frame. Its just bent metal in the trunk area. Now if the trunk pan was compromised or the quarter panels had been taken off and replaced (rewelded) then it would be considered frame
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:17 AM   #33
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How the %$%$ did that happen? In shipment? Yea they need to replace it OE to spec or give you a new car.. It doesnt matter that repair will be posted to carfax or should be. Your car is gonna lose value because it has to be repaired.

They have to cover this cost as well
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:19 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampager2000 View Post
Yep, because there's a noticeable difference in spring rates..

You paid for a car with damage that YOU looked at. You personally saw the damage, yourself. You said so. You were okay with this damage when you drove it off the lot. That's not the dealers fault.

I mean, they're in the wrong for selling the car. But if I go to a car place, and they show me wheel rub, I can't just drive it off the lot and later come back and say naww, this isn't gonna fly with me.

Next time, if you're going to be this particular about your car, don't accept the damage being there in the first place.

This too.. However you have a time to return the car legally..
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:25 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ans2k
You know what is sad. I hope this wasn't bought in Arkansas. The very first FR-S to show up at north point toyota was driven by one of the salesmen and he thought it would be cool to drift. drifted he did, into a curb. total damages were "unknown" but one of the rim was unrepairable and a new one was shipped over night. sadly, it was a white one too and since it wasn't written registered, it was sold as new. poor fellow. hope that isn't your car.
U cant sell a car as "new" with significant mileage and repairs. Lol. What r u smoking??
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:31 AM   #36
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No, it's is illegal to sell a car as "new" with significant mileage and repairs, but it is certainly possible, that's why they have the law in the first place.

That particular panel does look structural, and it appears to have made it through the paint booth in that crumpled state! I can't believe nobody in the factory noticed that.
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:33 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbie
In circumstances such as these, don't listen to people's speculations and jibber jabber on forums. Hire an attorney, follow attorneys advice.

I'd delete these pics, and keep it as quiet as possible. Meanwhile keeping full documentation as to EVERYTHING from recording conversations, etc.. For trial, media exposure, etc..

You potentially caught a design flaw in their machining/assembly of the vehicle, which could potentially save them hundreds of thousands of dollars.. Keep it quiet and heed to advice from attorneys. Who knows.. Toyota may GIVE you the car free (repaired) with a gag order. They may also give you a sum of undisclosed $$.

You have questions, Write them down. Consult an attorney.

At a minimum, I would settle for nothing less than a full vehicle replacement at dealer's invoice. (way below msrp) because it was as much the dealerships fault, as the manufacturer.

Why would should he keep quiet? He put it on here for nasioc to aware us that there could possibly be defects such as his on our (btz/fr-s). He just letting the community know the problem that happened and the situation he is going through.
My. 2cents would be either demand your money back or a replacement car. Thats bogus that the repair shop said it is not fixable but then the Dm tells you it is...
If it was a machine that messed the part up then you reporting it could save them hundreds of thousands or just your luck it was only your car.
Best of luck with your situation and i hope you receive what you deserve OP.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:25 AM   #38
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No no no. Tell them they can take the car back because the fix isn't going to be exactly what you thought it would be. You don't want this car. What is the period of time you have to return the car for a full refund. I would complain to everyone until you get a new car. Don't let them make you take this car and don't get so attached to it that you can't let it go. If it is such an easy fix they shouldn't have a problem taking it back and dealing with it themselves.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:28 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonrider_99

U cant sell a car as "new" with significant mileage and repairs. Lol. What r u smoking??
Plenty of brand new vehicles are sold with thousands of miles on them. Whether they were driven a significant distance as a dealer trade or driven as a demo by management or whoever, they still can and do get sold as "new". Some are damaged on transport and many are damaged on lots and repaired, still sold as new. That's just the way it is. A dealer may be willing to cut you a deal on a vehicle but they're still technically sold as new.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:38 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
I remember in the 80's there was a big to-do about chrysler execs and jr. execs taking new cars out and wrecking them or damaging them in some way.

then turning around and selling the cars after the fact as new because they had never been truly registered.

it was quite the news when it happened...
This happens til this day. Those dealerships that have their own "race" cars, are actually using inventoried car, modding them, racing them, and showing off the company dealership name. Then return it back to stock and sell them as "DEMO" vehicle. And is legally a new vehicle, because its never been registered. Local BMW dealership...
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:42 AM   #41
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In addition to the damage that you DO see, what damage is there that you DON'T see? Will there be additional issues that get blamed on your "abuse" later? What will this damage cause? Degraded crumple zone? I would think this is a safety issue too. Worn tires from misalignment? Who knows what else will come up?
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:19 PM   #42
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In addition to the damage that you DO see, what damage is there that you DON'T see? Will there be additional issues that get blamed on your "abuse" later? What will this damage cause? Degraded crumple zone? I would think this is a safety issue too. Worn tires from misalignment? Who knows what else will come up?
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:29 PM   #43
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**** that. Demand a new car. There is zero reason this should be an issue, and as posted above, who knows what else could be wrong. The fix is going to be sub-OEM quality, and that will (and has) affected the value of your car.

Be nice, but insist they take the car back and replace with a new one. I wouldn't accept any damages from a brand new car.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:36 PM   #44
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Give me a ****ing break, take a pair of pliers and bend it back.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Rampager2000 View Post
To be fair, I think your expectations of getting a replacement for something like that are pretty over the top. Not saying it couldn't happen, but that it probably won't. I guess it just depends on the particular laws.

Also, to whoever said the BRZ handles better.. It doesn't. Same. Exact. Car.
To be fair you need to **** and stay out of this thread.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:43 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Rampager2000 View Post

Also, to whoever said the BRZ handles better.. It doesn't. Same. Exact. Car.
You're wrong. Confirmed by many places, here is just one comparison on a race track:

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Old 08-14-2012, 01:00 PM   #47
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Looks like done in manufacturing. I don't know what could do that kind of damage. Either the welding arm or powerful machine that crumpled this piece of metal.

If they could just straighten it and weld it I dont see a problem. If they are talkin about cutting up the car they should really just replace.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:25 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touge86 View Post
Replacement is perfectly fair. I paid for a brand new car, not one with an accident history and frame damage.

The person that said the BRZ handles better, you are right. The spring rates are different.
Is this why u see the FR-S in commercials drifting However I have not seen 1 BRZ commercial
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #49
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Describing that as structural frame damage is a bit misleading.

Personally, while you probably have a right to have some compensation, I think you're making a very big deal out of nothing.

So long as they repair it, keep the history report clear of any indication of a repair, and toss you some free service, etc., I think I'd be fine with it.

Going on record as accident history would be a big no no. If the dealer would have spotted that earlier, they'd have fixed it and sold the car as new I'm sure.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:40 PM   #50
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I appreciate the support and advice from everyone so far. I met with the regional rep this morning at the factory recommended body shop. It was simply a meeting to gather more information and allow corporate toyota to talk to the body shop and take pictures.

I was asked if I would be interested in some perks if I get the car fixed and keep it, or if I still wanted to have the vehicle replaced? I told them I would still prefer vehicle replacement. The rep also took pictures of my clear bra applications and requested a copy of my receipt for the work that was done.

I am guessing that I will hear more from Toyota later today. This was actually a very pleasant experience with the rep/ body shop aside from the hassle of taking the morning off from work to take care of it.
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