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Old 05-03-2013, 09:13 AM   #351
Full-Race Geoff
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concillian - thanks for posting the update, glad to hear you are enjoying the setup. ID1000's on E85 sounds spot on. The more experience and time were getting with the EFR's its easy to see on the 2.0L EJ207, the 6758 is an excellent match (up to ~22-24psi or so). For the 2.5L engines at 7000rpm once you get above 18+ psi at redline you are running out of compressor map so the 7163 will be a great choice once its available
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:18 AM   #352
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HERE is a simple matchbot for 2.0L and 6758, take a look if you have a minute. you can see this is a great match as you are operating in the meat of the compressor map efficiency islands. Also its calculating 411hp peak at 7000rpm and 344tq at 4000rpm

Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 05-03-2013 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:07 PM   #353
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Geoff, what's the availability of the stiffer CRV springs for the EFR turbos. I get a little CRV flutter noise with my TS kit at part throttle and I need a stiffer spring. I guess I can try shimming it but if you guys can get me a spring I'll take that too.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:28 PM   #354
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BW's stiffer CRV springs arrived this morning!
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:34 PM   #355
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Calling
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:58 PM   #356
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:44 AM   #357
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Geoff, would you happen to know if the upcoming 7163 is the same dimension as the 6758?
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:54 AM   #358
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When is this turbo being released
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:29 PM   #359
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I was informed the turbo "might be released by the end of the summer". I'm really excited for what the 7163 can do too. The 7064 has been a little disappointing to me in the higher rpm. Granted, I have only looked at one dyno and know nothing about the car it's on.
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:47 PM   #360
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I can't wait to see more results... I'm really hoping this this thing can get to 450whp on 91 gas with built 2.5l motor, in northern cali there's not a lot of e85 stations... This would be great and total sleeper if you get pulled over
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:05 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3mlwhly View Post
I can't wait to see more results... I'm really hoping this this thing can get to 450whp on 91 gas with built 2.5l motor,
uhh... not gonna happen, sorry. Look at the first post, the 7163 is like 350 on 91. That car was fairly stock, so with some mods you might get another 10? 15? Maybe. 450? Not a chance.

A built motor doesn't really buy you too much in terms of power. 450 on 91 is simply going to take a much larger turbo.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:37 PM   #362
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I was pretty certain it wasnt going to happen.... It was more like a wish... I do appreciate you letting me down gently... Haha
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:41 PM   #363
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I was thinking more than 15 though with porting +1 valves, big fmic, big cams, 8000 redline, along with all the hoses and piping for high flow and short piping for quick spool... I don't think I was specific enough when I said built motor... Any input would be greatly appreciated
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Old 05-04-2013, 04:28 PM   #364
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No matter what you do to the engine, the turbo won't flow enough air for 450 on 91. The stock cams and valves are reasonably efficient for a turbo the size of the 7163, and you're going to gain very little from that kind of headwork on a 50-55 lb/ min turbo (I don't know exactly what flow the 7163 is, but probably in that ballpark.) This is HTA green-ish max flow (53 lb/min I think). Go find some external gate HTA green dynos on 91 and see where you can be. The 7163 might have some different response, but peak flow is peak flow. You're not going to find too many HTA green charts on pump in the 400s.

Last edited by Concillian; 05-04-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 04:38 PM   #365
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Maybe I should look into the bigger version then
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:37 PM   #366
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Yeah, look more at 7670 to get closer.
Here is a thread with a 7670 with built engine, cams and +1 valves
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2041557

20psi on 92 octane was under 450, but I'm sure that was a pretty safe and sane map for no meth, since his meth map is what he'll use when he pushes it. You'll need to push more boost on worse gas. Straight 91oct is not easy to make 450 with... takes a pretty big turbo.

Methanol injection will be much easier to hit that, and the 7064 might be more doable with help from meth.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:16 PM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinny.dtw View Post
Geoff, would you happen to know if the upcoming 7163 is the same dimension as the 6758?
yes - the 7163 is identical outer dimensions as 6758 and 6258

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Originally Posted by 3mlwhly View Post
When is this turbo being released
"end of summer" is the current eta for 7163. in borgwarner time they are tricky becuase it could be the end of summer .. of 2017


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3mlwhly View Post
I can't wait to see more results... I'm really hoping this this thing can get to 450whp on 91 gas with built 2.5l motor, in northern cali there's not a lot of e85 stations... This would be great and total sleeper if you get pulled over
i think that is possible, but would be a lot easier and safer to do with the 8374 twinscroll! thats what im running on my built 2.0L evo for 450whp on 91 octane and love it

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No matter what you do to the engine, the turbo won't flow enough air for 450 on 91.
the 7163 compressor map (not publically released yet) flows ~60lb/min at full tilt... this thing packs a big punch in small package and able to do it in stock location is a huge bonus (especially for the Cali crowd who can not go rotated for fear of impound) FYI: paul's 7163 in this thread was a very early prototype, one of 4 evolutions, and only capable of ~51.5lb/min at full tilt. he was dynoing with stock TMIC, cat and 2.5" exhaust in place, more room to go for certain
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:25 PM   #368
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Thank you for a little more info... I was a little suprised when he said that... What does that 84 spool at on the 2.0l? My biggest concern is drive ability on the street although I do want to race it often.. :-)
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:17 PM   #369
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Quote:
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My biggest concern is drive ability on the street although I do want to race it often.. :-)
all of the B1 frame singlescroll EFR and B2 frame twinscroll EFR turbos exhibit excellent street manners. For any subaru application, the first question to answer is "Stock location or rotated" - once you know that, then B1 frame singlescroll or B2 frame twinscroll choice is made for you and you can use the borgwarner matchbot to solve for your power, boost and shaft speed targets. Its really surprisingly simple to use, just looks intimidating
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:57 AM   #370
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Default efr 7163 in matchbot

some body of this great site knows when efr 7163 is going to be available in matchbot?
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:15 PM   #371
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all of the B1 frame singlescroll EFR and B2 frame twinscroll EFR turbos exhibit excellent street manners. For any subaru application, the first question to answer is "Stock location or rotated" - once you know that, then B1 frame singlescroll or B2 frame twinscroll choice is made for you and you can use the borgwarner matchbot to solve for your power, boost and shaft speed targets. Its really surprisingly simple to use, just looks intimidating
I would prefer stock location, But I don't want to be hindered by that. If I go by matchbox I should probaby go b3 frame for the top end I want but ill probably go with the 7163 and see were I land I do love instant spool so I thank this is good middle ground at a price that won't make my wife kill me (although that probably is enough to do that anyways) lots of good info on here and thanks for all the input, still waiting to see when its released and someone REALLY maxes it out on pump gas to see what it can do
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:33 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
HERE is a simple matchbot for 2.0L and 6758, take a look if you have a minute. you can see this is a great match as you are operating in the meat of the compressor map efficiency islands. Also its calculating 411hp peak at 7000rpm and 344tq at 4000rpm
quick question on this. it says its requiring about 225 lb/hr of fuel at 7k rpms for this turbo. thats like 2300 cc/min fuel injectors. that doesnt seem accurate to me. i would think on pump fuel you could run ID1000s with the 7163 let alone the 6758, i guess i was just trying to use it to gauge how much injector i would need to run 20 psi on e85. looking to bump up the 4-6k boost a bit to 23 to get more torque as well. seems like a 3psi increase for those 2k rpms will keep torque above 350 with a max of 375ish "373.41 354. 354.85" <-from the matchbot.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:52 PM   #373
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Well, just put in 21psi into Geoff's matchbot. That was between 95 and 100% IDC on ID1000s, which scale out more like 900ish, you can ratio consumption from there.

Also, keep in mind there are 4 injectors 2300cc/min is divided among the injectors.

Based on my torque curve, if flow held up perfect, you're looking at an additional ~17% at most at 7kRPM. So sizing ~1100cc should give a little headroom. Consequently this is around the same flow that the DW300 / Aeromotive 340 run out of steam. More than ~1100cc you need to look into the whole fuel system. Boost-a-pump or the bigger Walbro and an FPR at the very least.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:10 PM   #374
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Well, just put in 21psi into Geoff's matchbot. That was between 95 and 100% IDC on ID1000s, which scale out more like 900ish, you can ratio consumption from there.

Also, keep in mind there are 4 injectors 2300cc/min is divided among the injectors.

Based on my torque curve, if flow held up perfect, you're looking at an additional ~17% at most at 7kRPM. So sizing ~1100cc should give a little headroom. Consequently this is around the same flow that the DW300 / Aeromotive 340 run out of steam. More than ~1100cc you need to look into the whole fuel system. Boost-a-pump or the bigger Walbro and an FPR at the very least.
oh thats right. long day and was just trying to analyze the whole matchbot w/o enough sleep. I only have a walbro255 so its in need of an upgrade anyways. idk how soon its going to happen for me. prob when the vf37 dies and go from there.

when you say 17% your talking hp over what the chart is showing or what you are showing for torque? A nice broad torque curve is what would work best for autox and if i can get it up around 350wtq and keep it there til 7k rpms it will be plenty fast. the whp isnt really a worry but i know with this turbo that if I want 400whp it will get there.

as far as injectors i noticed you ran the same injectors and were getting close to 100%idc. 98% if i recall correctly at 20psi. what afr do you run on e85? i could prob turn the pressure up a tad to make the headroom but like you said 1100 woudl probably be safer.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:45 AM   #375
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For an "ideal" engine / turbo / head / cam / intercooler combo, a given boost pressure will result in a given torque regardless of RPM.
That's not reality, at some point the system runs out of efficiency and torque drops off. This can be due to any component or a combination, but the result is the same, torque starts tapering off. In my case, torque at 7000 RPM is around 15-17% lower on airboy at 7000 RPM than it is where torque is relatively flat.

Your "best case" scenario, then, is 15-17% more torque at 7000 RPM, and that will require a directly proportional amount of fuel.
Any more than that requires additional boost pressure or displacement.

In reality it will be a little less than that, so there's your margin.
350 wtq at 7k is 350 * 7000/5252 = 465 HP. 400 HP is 300 wtq at 7k.

I'm running 11.6/11.7 (gas equivalent) AFR.

You're at the edge of a DW300 at 1050-1100cc at base pressure, there's no room to bump the pressure. Check the flow sheet for the pump. Fuel pressure increases result in pumping capability decreasing. If you want to run that kind of flow with a Wally 255, you need to jack up the voltage with a device like a boost-a-pump. Fuel pumps increase current too when voltage goes up, so power and flow increases nicely with even small voltage increase.

Check the sheet for DW300, which has flow charts at three different voltages (13.5, 16 and 18 volts)
http://www.deatschwerks.com/resource...fuel-pump-tech

21 psi boost + base pressure 43.5 is around 65psi total pressure, but round that to 70 to give some loss for the lines and fittings and such.
70 psi is 250 L / hr (4167 cc/min = 1042 cc/min injectors).
16v is 320 L / hr (1333 cc/min injectors)
19% voltage increase, but 70psi flow increases 28%. This is why the boost-a-pump works well to give additional flow. small voltage increases yield significant flow capacity increase.

So for fueling, roughly 4 bar fuel pressure will allow the ID1000s to flow in that range (1050ish). You'll need a pump that can flow ~250-270 L / hr at 80-85 psi, and based on the Walbro flow tests I've seen, even with a boost-a-pump it'll probably fall short of that, since the Walbro falls off pretty sharply at high pressures, so you'll likely need either a DW300 with a boost-a-pump or one of the bigger Walbros (416 I think? whatever their big E85 pump is) direct wired.

Also, I'm not sure why you're expecting a vf37 OEM turbo to die anytime soon. There are lots of vf cars running WELL over 100k miles. You might be waiting a long time to upgrade if you're gonna wait for that to die.

Last edited by Concillian; 05-19-2013 at 02:08 AM.
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