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Old 11-22-2013, 10:34 PM   #676
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I have a local friend who has been asking me about this turbo in comparison to previous setups I've run in the past (and currently run). While this turbo looks excellent, I think there have been some good comments made about it in the thread already.

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, speak authoritatively (because this is still an somewhat unproven turbo), or act like I know everything (because I do NOT). Just my thoughts and experience, with a little bit of speculative data in the form of a dyno plot.

1. The size is huge. Sure it doesn't really matter once installed, but like others have mentioned in this thread, it's hard to call it a stock-location turbo when none of the current stock-location hardware (up pipes, downpipes, inlets) will work with it. Why cram it into a space that has such a constricted air intake path is something I'm just not understanding. If its easily adapted to, and designed to be, a rotated turbo, then that makes a heck of a lot more sense.

2. The current cost of a setup is greater than your traditional rotated setup (limited supply of turbos, limited ancillary hardware providers), and FAR greater than a simple stock-location setup. Money isn't everything, but it better provide some value in another fashion other than "new technology".

3. The spool and transient response are something yet to be seen. But based on the dyno plot that 'socalGT' posted, we can gather a few assumptions (not facts) about it. See below image. If we pit it against xluben's 20gxtr setup, the Blouch turbo bests the powerband at every single RPM point. It's also cheaper, and is a true stock location turbo. My GTX30R almost bests the power band before 3700rpm, yet smashes it to anything after that.

I would expect a smaller turbo to spool better, and have better transient response (obviously). We will only find out how it compares to current Blouch turbos with dual ball bearings and billet wheels until we have more data to pull from. This is hardly conclusive by any means, but, something we have for now.

Just curious why a lot of the subaru forums seem to be foaming at the mouth for these turbos. I haven't yet mentioned some of the benefits of the EFR in reliability, simplicity in EWG setup, boost control etc...but that also adds complexity. If your EWG or BCS fails, thats easier to replace than replacing the entire turbo if one of those components fails.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:31 PM   #677
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If you want a good comparison of the turbo against a 30r and other BW turbos check the review perrin did.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/bo...test-and-tune/

Last edited by freddy121389; 11-22-2013 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:04 AM   #678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy121389 View Post
If you want a good comparison of the turbo against a 30r and other BW turbos check the review perrin did.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/bo...test-and-tune/

Was this test done with the lastest production 7163? Just curious
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:11 AM   #679
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Was this test done with the lastest production 7163? Just curious
I'm unsure if it is or not, but my guess is no. Looking on that page you can see those results were posted back in 2007, since then I'm sure it has been revised multiple times to improve on top of these results.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:59 AM   #680
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So it will be even better! sounds pretty good promising
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pet3r View Post
3. The spool and transient response are something yet to be seen. But based on the dyno plot that 'socalGT' posted, we can gather a few assumptions (not facts) about it. See below image. If we pit it against xluben's 20gxtr setup, the Blouch turbo bests the powerband at every single RPM point. It's also cheaper, and is a true stock location turbo. My GTX30R almost bests the power band before 3700rpm, yet smashes it to anything after that.t wheels until we have more data to pull from. This is hardly conclusive by any means, but, something we have for now.
What dynos were the 20gxtr and your GTX30r on?

Because that would make a HUGE difference if it was not same dyno and similar conditions.

People like Jeff Perrin that I have spoken with a few times (and has nothing to gain) say that without a doubt the transient response and power-band of these turbos are better then the other stuff out there.

Even Jeff Sponaugle (sp?) says the same thing, and he also has nothing to gain by it.
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:59 PM   #682
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Yeah also those cars posted have almost everything possible done to squeeze more power out of them. The OP car is pretty much stock, with just enough mods for the fueling and bolting the turbo on.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:45 PM   #683
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Yeah also those cars posted have almost everything possible done to squeeze more power out of them. The OP car is pretty much stock, with just enough mods for the fueling and bolting the turbo on.
Exactly.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:04 PM   #684
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A lot of the best part of the EFR you wont see on a dyno sheet. You know how with [insert your current turbo name here] when you give it the beans coming out of a corner, even at high rpms theres that slight delay between when what your foot is doing and what the car is doing? That isnt present with the EFR, its just like having a bigger engine once you're above the boost threshold.
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:06 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by pet3r View Post

I'm not trying to ruffle feathers,
How dare you come into an EFR thread and say such things! It's like you're trying to debate the awesomeness. If there's lacking data it's lacking good or bad. So until there is a collection of undisputable, repeatable, verified, independent results proving the claims, let the dreamers dream!

Like many others... still waiting
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Old 11-27-2013, 05:23 PM   #686
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I AM trying to debate the awesomeness, that was the point I'm not discrediting it's purported awesomeness, just debating between data points that are currently available.

Based on what I can read about the EFR technology, it looks awesome. Better than current turbos. But, HOW much better? Thats all I'm bringing up. Like I mentioned, there seems to be a TON of hype and excitement surrounding this turbo, and I'm just curious as to why...because based on what we know, IMO it doesn't look to be as amazing as the hype is built it up to be. How much of the hype is based on fact vs built up hype from BW and FR?

Would I love to try one? Absolutely
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:17 PM   #687
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i have 7670 and i love it, 25 psi @ 3600rpm in 4th gear, and 4000k in 3d, great turbo for 500 whp, the best part is the iwg.
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:15 PM   #688
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I think the hardest thing to show with the EFRs (and the significantly lightened turbine wheel) is the response. And no, response is in no way shown by a dyno plot. Just because traditionally a turbo with a lower boost threshold has better response, doesn't mean it is true for all turbos. Less inertia required to spin the turbo means better response.

How do you show that with data plots? I will try when mine is finally done.
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:51 PM   #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
i have 7670 and i love it, 25 psi @ 3600rpm in 4th gear, and 4000k in 3d, great turbo for 500 whp, the best part is the iwg.
I'm with this guy. We both have the same kit and mine is slowly getting back in action. It was a great performer for the 7,000 miles I ran it at low boost on my old motor at only 17-18 psi. I can't wait to turn it up on this new build.
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:56 PM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
I think the hardest thing to show with the EFRs (and the significantly lightened turbine wheel) is the response. And no, response is in no way shown by a dyno plot. Just because traditionally a turbo with a lower boost threshold has better response, doesn't mean it is true for all turbos. Less inertia required to spin the turbo means better response.

How do you show that with data plots? I will try when mine is finally done.
Here is a quick 2-3-4 blast with my EFR. Now its only at 15 psi but I think it shows the boost recovery between shifts.



The black line is boost pressure
The purple line is throttle position
The blue line is the boost target.
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:00 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
I'm with this guy. We both have the same kit and mine is slowly getting back in action. It was a great performer for the 7,000 miles I ran it at low boost on my old motor at only 17-18 psi. I can't wait to turn it up on this new build.
Quote:
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i have 7670 and i love it, 25 psi @ 3600rpm in 4th gear, and 4000k in 3d, great turbo for 500 whp, the best part is the iwg.
It's too bad you guys don't have E85 readily available You could really make them shine. High CR 9-10:1 and E85. You would really see the response then!

I just wish BW would make a .85-.92AR v-band up EWG housing! It would be a bit shorter on the hot side and I could use it with my Killer B header!
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:19 AM   #692
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I'm going to run race gas through this thing too. We don't need no stinking E85(but it would be nice)
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:29 AM   #693
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i have 7670 and i love it, 25 psi @ 3600rpm in 4th gear, and 4000k in 3d, great turbo for 500 whp, the best part is the iwg.
My gtx3076 hits 25psi around 3600 as well. What fuel are you using?

Everyone is talking about how the EFR response is THAT much better, and that a dyno doesn't show it. How does it not? If you have two cars on the same dyno in the same hour, and you both go WOT starting around 2500rpm, the "faster response" turbo should be apparent on the dyno plot.

I'll try and make a plot like kellygsnd to show off boost response, but then you also have to factor in flat-foot shifting and/or the shifting speed of the driver.

I'm just as curious about this EFR turbo as many, I guess I"m just slow to "buy in" without seeing more data. Based on what we can see is why I'm a tad skeptical.

Last edited by pet3r; 11-28-2013 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:39 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
I'm going to run race gas through this thing too. We don't need no stinking E85(but it would be nice)
Haha!

Kelly, Maybe you should make a tune for the oxygenated stuff Junior was tuning his GTR to, what was it, something purple, like E85 on steroids! I think it was expensive but hey if you want to go fast and break drive line parts it could be lots of fun!!
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:44 AM   #695
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Ftw purple and it's $165 for 5 gallons
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:47 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by pet3r View Post
My gtx3076 hits 25psi around 3600 as well. What fuel are you using?

Everyone is talking about how the EFR response is THAT much better, and that a dyno doesn't show it. How does it not? If you have two cars on the same dyno in the same hour, and you both go WOT starting around 2500rpm, the "faster response" turbo should be apparent on the dyno plot.

I'll try and make a plot like kellygsnd to show off boost response, but then you also have to factor in flat-foot shifting and/or the shifting speed of the driver.

I'm just as curious about this EFR turbo as many, I guess I"m just slow to "buy in" without seeing more data. Based on what we can see is why I'm a tad skeptical.
Hey Spencer what up! I think they are both going to be using 92 oct. west coast piss gas plus meth so not fare compared to your E85 plot!

How's that Fozzy coming?

Allan
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:32 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by pet3r View Post
Everyone is talking about how the EFR response is THAT much better, and that a dyno doesn't show it. How does it not? If you have two cars on the same dyno in the same hour, and you both go WOT starting around 2500rpm, the "faster response" turbo should be apparent on the dyno plot.
Because at 2500 rpm the turbo is below the boost threshold and it will take time for it to build boost. Response is not the same as boost threshold.

Generally speaking a larger turbo will have a higher boost threshold rpm, and have less response. So we always equate the two together. A bigger wheel usually means more power potential, but it also means it takes more rpm to have enough exhaust pressure to get it up to speed, and it also usually means that when rpm is high enough (say 4000 rpm, when shifting, or going from 10% - 100% throttle) the turbo takes more time to get up to speed.

Let's for a min assume all things are equal from say a GTX3076 and an EFR7670. Same size wheels, same a/r etc....

Both will have pretty much the same boost threshold when showing on a dyno. When running on a dyno you generally go 2000/2500 rpm - red-line and that takes time and allows everything to come up to speed.

On the street, I don''t drive like that. If my turbo is capable of 10 psi at 2500 rpm, and 20 psi at 3200 rpm, how long does it take to get to its capabilities when mashing the throttle? That is where the mass of the rotating assembly comes to play. Less mass makes a difference, but you don't see it on a dyno plot.

It is kinda like how you get 25 psi at 3600 rpm, but probably in 4th gear, what about 3rd, how about 2nd? Gets worse doesn't it? Less mass means that the boost threshold in the lower gears is a lot closer to what it is in the higher gears.

That can make a BIG difference in real world driving. And WOT shifting.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:25 PM   #698
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This is a pretty good example but comparing a GTX3076 with an inconel 60mm turbine wheel to a EFR7670 with the gamma ti 70mm turbine wheel is not an even comparison.

The EFR has more potential with the 70 mm wheel than the GTX3076's 60mm wheel, compressor wheels being similar size. The 7670 is more closer to a GTX3582.

If the 7670 has a boost threshold similar or close to the GTX3076 because of the lower mass of the larger gamma ti turbine wheel then you just proved his point of the response showing in the form of boost threshold that is measurable on the dyno. All other variables being the same.

I agree the dyno does not show boost response between gear shifts but if it shows quicker or as quick of spool comparing these two turbos then you can conclude that the EFR has better response.
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Old 11-28-2013, 02:06 PM   #699
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The rate of spool is also not linear. Two turbos could reach the same peak pressure at the same rpm with one reaching 4 psi at the throttle tip in very quickly and the other producing that 4 psi a few seconds later. Both could reach the same peak pressure at the same rpm however.

The turbo that produces positive more quickly will feel as though it spools much faster but show the same peak value at the same peak pressure as other turbos. The turbo that produces positive pressure more quickly will usually be a tad faster in everyday driving especially in situations like lane changes or pulling away from a stop light. It also helps in racing situAtions where you have to hold a line.
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:04 PM   #700
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This is a pretty good example but comparing a GTX3076 with an inconel 60mm turbine wheel to a EFR7670 with the gamma ti 70mm turbine wheel is not an even comparison.

The EFR has more potential with the 70 mm wheel than the GTX3076's 60mm wheel, compressor wheels being similar size. The 7670 is more closer to a GTX3582.

If the 7670 has a boost threshold similar or close to the GTX3076 because of the lower mass of the larger gamma ti turbine wheel then you just proved his point of the response showing in the form of boost threshold that is measurable on the dyno. All other variables being the same.

I agree the dyno does not show boost response between gear shifts but if it shows quicker or as quick of spool comparing these two turbos then you can conclude that the EFR has better response.

I know those turbos are not the same, I was just speaking hypothetically.

Also, I was speaking about just the mass of the turbine wheel, not the other features of the turbo. (blade design, IWG, etc...)

Boost threshold has very little to do with mass of the rotating assembly (yes it will have some affect). A dyno run is usually done in 3rd or 4th gear. If you were on the road and doing a run in 6th gear the mass would make even less of a difference (though technically it would still be there).

I was just an oversimplified example to prove a point.
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