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Old 08-21-2012, 11:00 PM   #76
Layvon
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I fail to see how FR can stay in business with those prices. Kudos to them for making it work. Geoff and Raffi have been good in responses to me with both time and professionalism, but geeze, 1000+ for a down pipe, cmon. I could buy a used welder and new down pipe and have a couple goofs welding on the Vband before the FR DP would be cheaper. (I know it wouldn't be as pretty and such, but thats not the point).

Graphs look good and congrats to the OP, nice looking graphs, and beautiful car.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:44 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layvon
I fail to see how FR can stay in business with those prices. Kudos to them for making it work. Geoff and Raffi have been good in responses to me with both time and professionalism, but geeze, 1000+ for a down pipe, cmon. I could buy a used welder and new down pipe and have a couple goofs welding on the Vband before the FR DP would be cheaper. (I know it wouldn't be as pretty and such, but thats not the point).

Graphs look good and congrats to the OP, nice looking graphs, and beautiful car.

8 gauge 316H stainless steel ain't cheap.

Neither is a robotic tig welding setup

The end product is far superior to almost everything else out there. The amount of crazy high HP/race builds using their components in high stress situations speaks to their quality.

While i agree the price is steep you get what you pay for. For a down pipe the materials might be a little bit past what's necessary but you pay to play. For manifolds FR really can't be beat. The up and down are made to the same levels of quality with the same parts, which is then reflected in price.

However I will agree that the materials are far beyond what's necessary for an up and downpipe but you can be pretty well assured to never have an issue with the 'expensive' full race products.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:13 AM   #78
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^I agree. The FR parts look great. They're definitely a high end offering.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:58 PM   #79
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While this is true. Isn't this product they're offering suppose to be budget friendly? If someone wants to go balls out, they wouldn't need this Turbo or setup. This is suppose to be for someone that wants a little more umph.
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:55 PM   #80
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If suggestions are welcome, I would love to see this car switch the dw1000 for id1000 or better yet id715 if you're using pump only. I dont know how no-one has said this yet, but these dw1000 are poor injectors. 550$ poor. They flow well over 1200cc at 47psi, and have some of the worst spray pattern in the industry, which further degrades poor mix/atomization. They are inferior to 10yr old dw tech, nothing like ID. I've had them on my 08sti dailydriver, and had a crazy time getting 360whp on 91pump on ANY boost!! (gtx3076r 0.82 ewg). I simply couldn't get IDC past 55-60%. Cruise fueling was around 1.2-2 ms. that drove the car crazy. I bet you wont have enought fingers to count the disadvantages of such small spray times..

I switched back to stockers 565ccs, and car went 415whp on 103idc at 6000rpm at 18psi same 91pump same map (injectors latency, scalar, and back to completely stock maf scale) was the only change
I use grimmspeed 3port and turbosmart 40 with 15psi spring. So basically I have the boost taper to 15psi once im over 100idc. Thats 20-18-17-16-15psi 3d stock ecu 3dmap with maximum flexibility.
The driveablity gaing was worthy, but the random knock counts from a 60miles trip were down by about 75%-85%. Which means they werent random and now my bearings might have cancer.

p.s my tuner gifted me a bottle of champagne for this very discovery lmao)
.......its only a tune away
and I've seen some big names post about this (US product bashing by tuners is quite rare). They're actually only rebranded old school densos. with no caps..

yes, we're not elites, but we think. and then we test. and them we think again and share with you..

Last edited by STi*guy.kiev; 08-22-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:50 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truwrxtacy View Post
While this is true. Isn't this product they're offering suppose to be budget friendly? If someone wants to go balls out, they wouldn't need this Turbo or setup. This is suppose to be for someone that wants a little more umph.
440whp is more than a little umph thats pretty much 500 crank hp
Budget and friendly doesn't even go together with the wrx/sti.lol
I think this set up is awesome with a better intecooler header and etc this thing should be close to 500whp at full tilt
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:10 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBARIFFIC View Post
440whp is more than a little umph thats pretty much 500 crank hp
haha... yeah, I remember when people were pretty happy to bolt on a vf30 / 34 and get 270 whp on the dyno. These internet HP expectation inflation the last couple decades is INSANE.

How many people were getting 500 crank from a 2.5 liter or smaller engine 10-20 years ago?

Okay now how many of those people were considered the "budget friendly" portion of the market?
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:35 PM   #83
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If this turbo already requires a custom up pipe....then why not just rotate it and get rid of having to deal with the tight fitment under the intake mani?
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:47 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBARIFFIC

440whp is more than a little umph thats pretty much 500 crank hp
Budget and friendly doesn't even go together with the wrx/sti.lol
I think this set up is awesome with a better intecooler header and etc this thing should be close to 500whp at full tilt
Think your missing the point. The point is this set up is not meant to be a big HP full blown set up. Like others have stated, if the price around 3k - 3500. That is rotated territory. Why would u run this route when you can go rotated? They said they did this set up in stock everything. Yes 400whp is nothing to laugh at, but a FL green will get you there, the atp 3076 will get you close to there.

For most people that are already tbe+ tune (which is a majority of the community), it does not make sense to drop re-buy parts you already have.

In my scenario I have a tbe with AP. I can just buy a stock location Turbo and sacrafice aa little bit of HP or spool and save the dp + up money. The 1500 I save could be labor + tune. Does not make sense.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:38 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
If this turbo already requires a custom up pipe....then why not just rotate it and get rid of having to deal with the tight fitment under the intake mani?
Funny I was just thinking that not to long ago I guess because its not that big. Who would rotate a 20g.lol 6262,GT30 and above rotate I guess its just a habit.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:49 AM   #86
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I rotated my stock vf turbo Lol
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:43 AM   #87
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^^^ I did too when the hotside was still intact..
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:30 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi*guy.kiev View Post
If suggestions are welcome, I would love to see this car switch the dw1000 for id1000 or better yet id715 if you're using pump only. I dont know how no-one has said this yet, but these dw1000 are poor injectors. 550$ poor. They flow well over 1200cc at 47psi, and have some of the worst spray pattern in the industry, which further degrades poor mix/atomization. They are inferior to 10yr old dw tech, nothing like ID. I've had them on my 08sti dailydriver, and had a crazy time getting 360whp on 91pump on ANY boost!! (gtx3076r 0.82 ewg). I simply couldn't get IDC past 55-60%. Cruise fueling was around 1.2-2 ms. that drove the car crazy. I bet you wont have enought fingers to count the disadvantages of such small spray times..

I switched back to stockers 565ccs, and car went 415whp on 103idc at 6000rpm at 18psi same 91pump same map (injectors latency, scalar, and back to completely stock maf scale) was the only change
I use grimmspeed 3port and turbosmart 40 with 15psi spring. So basically I have the boost taper to 15psi once im over 100idc. Thats 20-18-17-16-15psi 3d stock ecu 3dmap with maximum flexibility.
The driveablity gaing was worthy, but the random knock counts from a 60miles trip were down by about 75%-85%. Which means they werent random and now my bearings might have cancer.

p.s my tuner gifted me a bottle of champagne for this very discovery lmao)
.......its only a tune away
and I've seen some big names post about this (US product bashing by tuners is quite rare). They're actually only rebranded old school densos. with no caps..

yes, we're not elites, but we think. and then we test. and them we think again and share with you..
I think you need to find a new tuner. I have tuned countless cars with DW1000's and have had zero issues with them. My car idles and cruises as well as it did with stock injectors both on E85 and 91 octane. What is also curious is that you pillory the DW injectors as being old tech and that they are based on Denso injectors while forgetting that the stock injectors are Denso's as well.

Perhaps what is even more amusing is your claim of 415 whp on the stock injectors... and some people say that dynos in the US are high reading

BTW, I do agree that the Injector Dynamics injectors are excellent. We stock them as well as DW and recommend both enthusiastically.

I'm happy that you settled on a solution for your car that makes you happy, but I have confidence in my injectors and do not feel that they are holding me back at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
If this turbo already requires a custom up pipe....then why not just rotate it and get rid of having to deal with the tight fitment under the intake mani?
I'm a huge rotated turbo guy. Anyone who calls the shop and asks for a 50+lb/min turbo setup is advised to go rotated. I believe that most big bolt-on turbos are inherently compromised by being shoehorned in to stock location. The hodgepodge of turbine and compressor housings used to fit oversized CHRA's in to stock location take proven comp and turbine wheels out of their native housings and I feel this compromised performance. The inlet side of the compressor is also somewhat restricted by sitting behind the TGV housing which forces a severely kinked bend at the mouth of the turbo.

Having said all that, the Full-Race EFR7163 stock location kit is different. The turbo is configured as Borg-Warner intended. The form factor is such that it fits in stock location without my kind of funky fitment. Most of all the turbo itself offers a hitherto unseen combination of peak flow and response with a powerband that is simply sick. The fact that it fits in stock location is icing on the cake as it allows drop-in fitment to all existing parts or parts intended for the stock turbo (inlets, intakes intercoolers etc...) It makes the total install a completely bolt-on affair without having to source silicone elbows or weld up adapters pipes. Not a big deal for me at the shop since we have all that stuff in stock plus the fab tools to make proper use of them, but for a guys doing it all at home simpler is better.
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Old 08-23-2012, 06:28 AM   #89
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Nobody wants to answer my questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Hey Paul, good to see some info up on this 7163.

Any chance you can comment on the boost transition, recovery time? Not the boost threshold that you can see in a plot, but what it feels like on the road in 2nd gear at 3500 when you go WOT.

Can you really tell the difference between the lighter weight titanium exhaust wheel in drive-ability?




To Geoff:

I tried calling you a few times, but you are obviously busy. I should (finally) have a 13 STI on order, and I want to know when I can actually physically have one of these complete kits in my hands.

Also, is there any way one can have your "1.5" scroll header, and then the appropriate UP to work with the SS B1 frame EFRs?

One last question for you:

-if we have to wait a while for the 7163 to come out, what are your thoughts on the 6758? I know Perrin did the one test, but the results seem skewed due to a possible TGV issue. Is the 6758 (all things being equal) a turbo that will have a few hundred rpm better boost threshold, but 30 whp or so less potential?

I am thinking of the following for a 2013 STI:

-stock or possibly aftermarket TMIC
-94 octane E10
-your 1.5 scroll system if available
-3inch TBE, with possibly a 3.5" HFC, vs a 3" unit
-TGV delete
-some sort of intake and inlet pipe

I have been waiting forever to purchase a car wanting 400 whp and Stage 2ish response, and I even spent a fair bit of time test driving used GTRs and 911s, but I think I kinda want the practicality of a STI. Please tell me I can actually buy one of these kits soon!!!!!

plsplsplsplsplspls
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:34 AM   #90
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I dunno... going rotated costs what, for all new parts from a reputable source and not a used setup? And are generally how compatible with TMICs (hey, some people like TMICs) and so on? I mean, has anyone actually logged pressure inside of, say, one of the 3" turbo inlet tubes vs. pressure inside the pre-turbo tube on a rotated mount turbo setup with an air filter? Sure the FR uppipe and downpipe are probably not going to be the cheapest things in the universe, but an equivalent rotated setup is going to have a lot of extra stuff to pay for.

Personally, I have a DD - I don't want a big frontmount with a cut bumper beam for safety reasons especially driving people around - I think a TMIC, for all its compromises, is probably perfectly workable for my goals, especially paired with water/meth. I don't want a huge, obviously aftermarket, turbo hanging to the side for all the world to see and giving emissions people or any cop an itch and excuse to ticket me, I want something I can call stock with a straight face. Even when/if I get around to a built motor, I would really prefer a stock location turbo even if it does compromise performance a little bit. And if this is using the BW turbo housing that this thing is engineered for instead of something else that a shop is cramming the hotside of the turbo into (nothing against Blouch or FP, but you cannot deny they don't have the resources of BW) then I don't think there's going to be that much compromise.

I don't know about you guys, but I think this is a pretty great option. Obviously we have no idea on pricing, but the ATP stock location turbos with the GTX wheel are in the 2.2k range (or 1.8kish for something in a T3 flange and then you're at a custom up and downpipe) and the comparable Blouch turbos are like what, 1.7-1.9? From what I can see the EFR7064 is in the 1.7k range and the 6758 is in the 1.5-1.6k range so I'd expect the 7163 to fall somewhere around there but who knows. That's a chunk of change, sure, but seems pretty price competitive to the other stuff... and I say this with no disrespect to Full Race, but I've got the fabrication ability and equipment to do my own up and downpipe - maybe not as pretty, but well enough to last. So the 7163 sounds pretty close to ideal to me when/if I get to that point in the mod bug.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:01 AM   #91
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I really hope calling this turbo "stock Location" dies out.

Stock location refers to being able to bolt the turbo to the stock up/down pipe flanges....IE the turbo can drop in without an up/down pipe.

I think changing the flanges will increase sales substiantially......

I had this same conversation with Buschur when he was going to do rotated stock location turbos.

by necessitating the up/down pipe....you are going to lose 90% of the market that already has a tbe and header/up. If someone is already to that point, then spending $1500 on a turbo to lose some powerband is going to win vice spending $3500 on this.

If ATP makes a comp/turbine housing that is stock location.....that version will sell substantially more units than this version.

Another thing this kit does is hinder further upgradeability......once this power level is gotten used to and the person wants to upgrade....they would have to buy a whole new up/down pipe AGAIN.

Last edited by Phatron; 08-23-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:22 AM   #92
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Fine, "non-rotated"; better? I actually wonder though... the turbine housing is stainless on the EFRs. Ignoring the fact that it would be a bitch to weld properly, what's to prevent someone from milling off the mount face and welding it to a stainless Subaru flange? It would take some finishing to have the entry be properly smooth, but the entry area for the T25 and Subaru flange look pretty comparable.

Anyway, how much of a market there'll be... I honestly don't know - I mean, how many stock location ATP turbos are there running around in Subarus? For me, having the ability to do my own uppipe and downpipe pretty easily though, it sounds pretty darned attractive.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:38 AM   #93
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I had an ITS 60-1 turbo setup like this back in 2003. U can do it with any turbo. But again the problem is the lack of interchangeability. When I wanted to change the setup I had to spend alot more money to do so.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:47 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I really hope calling this turbo "stock Location" dies out.

Stock location refers to being able to bolt the turbo to the stock up/down pipe flanges....IE the turbo can drop in without an up/down pipe.

I think changing the flanges will increase sales substiantially......

I had this same conversation with Buschur when he was going to do rotated stock location turbos.

by necessitating the up/down pipe....you are going to lose 90% of the market that already has a tbe and header/up. If someone is already to that point, then spending $1500 on a turbo to lose some powerband is going to win vice spending $3500 on this.

If ATP makes a comp/turbine housing that is stock location.....that version will sell substantially more units than this version.

Another thing this kit does is hinder further upgradeability......once this power level is gotten used to and the person wants to upgrade....they would have to buy a whole new up/down pipe AGAIN.
+1

Why not make adapter-uppipes for OEM both single and twinscroll headers?
The fullrace headers already look just like the OEM twinscroll headers, only with a different flange, and tilted to the side. Then there is an uppipe to take you to where the turbo needs to be.
What about an uppipe to take you from the OEM twinscroll flange to the position of the turbo, with the turbine inlet footprint adapted to this turbo?
This would then alleviate the total cost and make it easier to pay for the downpipe.
Is it a matter of not having the OEM twinscroll headers, to make a jig?
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:53 AM   #95
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Phatron is hitting on the points I was trying to make. This looks like a great setup, but I would expect it to be a very small market. Once you factor in a FR or custom uppipe and downpipe, it costs way more than a true stock location turbo (nearly as much as a rotated setup), and has no upgrade path for a larger turbo down the road (like a true rotated setup would have).

To fit the market for this you have to have to be willing to spend lots of money for the very specific goal of getting the absolute best powerband for a mid 400's HP setup and being sure that you will never, ever want more power. And if either of those goals change down the road, it ends up costing you a boat load more than either a true stock location turbo or a rotated setup would have cost.

If you could make this a true stock location turbo and sell it for under $2k I think it would be a really popular choice.
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:41 PM   #96
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If you could make a turbo that spits out gold coins and makes you lose body fat, that would be a really popular choice too. To have anyone screwing with trying to make a true stock location turbo, you're going to have to need to be able to get parts... which don't seem to be that common yet obviously, so doesn't have all sorts of people jumping at trying to make weird crap (Subaru flange) work. Can you even get just CHRAs for EFRs?

Purely hypothetically though, the turbine housing casting that ATP has enough meat to take a 35R wheel, which has a 68mm OD... so if you started from one of the smaller ones or a raw casting, why wouldn't you be able to machine it for an EFR profile wheel? Okay, you lose the nice stainless cast housing but voila, boltup. Or any number of other housings could be machined - FP sells theirs separately and if it can be opened up to TD06HR size, it could fit an EFR turbine wheel. Maybe someone will do this once you can get the EFR bits to hybridize with. I really actually want to try my idea of milling off the T25 flange and welding a Subaru style flange to the EFR turbine housing now.

Personally, hi, I'm in the eventual market for the 7163 one way or another, though probably not the full kit as I enjoy making stuff and can save some money there.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:39 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post

Purely hypothetically though, the turbine housing casting that ATP has enough meat to take a 35R wheel, which has a 68mm OD... so if you started from one of the smaller ones or a raw casting, why wouldn't you be able to machine it for an EFR profile wheel?
The EFR turbos are LONG between the ends of the turbine and compressor wheels. It's not that they're too big around in diameter it's that the distance between compressor inlet and turbine outlet is much longer than other popular designs, so the flanges cannot physically line up. I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like the kind of thing that will be easy to fix with custom housings. This thread shows a B1 frame EFR next to a GTX30 turbo in several orientations, take a look at how much longer it is between the ends of the wheels: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...52-EFR-Anatomy

Eventually someone will make a turbo with similar technology and a center section that isn't 2 miles long. Until then, to get the EFR-like powerband, I think you're gonna have to pay for up / down in a "stock-ish location" kit or go full rotated.

Now a B1 frame turbo kit isn't going to fit anything else, the housings add additional length and there's no way anything else is going to bolt up. There's no "it fits more turbos" advantage from rotating here. No matter what, any kit for the B1 frame EFRs is going to ONLY fit the B1 EFRs. Given that... there is only one trade off between rotating and "stock-ish location"... whether the penalties to rotate are worth any potential advantage in freeing restriction.

So... the question is: How much does that restriction hurt at this airflow?

Interestingly enough, I remember Phatron arguing that the restriction of stock location was negligible when talking about his Dom4XTR... now he's advocating rotated on a much smaller turbo... Perhaps he just likes arguing for the sake of arguing?

I think when it comes down to it, this size EFR needs a unique solution for flanging, and it doesn't really matter whether it's "stock location" or it's rotated. Any difference in actual performance has to be pretty small... so they decided to keep it so people could use any number of aftermarket parts designed for stock location. Want to add an FMIC to this? Buy ANY kit designed for your model car and bolt it in.... With a rotated setup, you want an FMIC, you are doing at least some amount of custom fabbing... or you're only using THE FMIC that is made for your rotated kit. Rotated potentially frees up some power, but as people have been pointing out, the target market for a B1 frame kit is already small. Why make it even smaller?

I also disagree that the people looking for this kind of turbo is necessarily budget conscious. Just because you don't want 1000 HP doesn't mean you aren't willing to pay for a great mix of response and power... especially people wanting the best mix of that for the stock block. Look at this, it's 400+ HP and GREAT response with E85. How much more would you feel comfortable with on the stock block? I really don't think there's a lot of people wanting to push a stock block further. Competitive autocrossers would want a B1 frame EFR (probably even smaller than the 7163) if it can improve response over an ~18G-XT sized turbo you see a lot of autocross builds having, but with similar top end (or improve top end for similar response). From all accounts of EFR I've seen, not just here or on Subaru boards, but all accounts, EFR seems to be legit, and a bigger improvement than "billet" ever was. People will pay for that. At least until another turbo MFR demonstrates similar results in a smaller package that can fit in the true stock location.

Last edited by Concillian; 08-23-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:00 PM   #98
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Well, fair enough on length. I'd been figuring that the extra-long-ness was in the turbine housing and the bigger CHRAs, but that seems to not be the case. Oh well. Doesn't bother me that much, personally - I'd been planning on custom UP/DP with the OEM EFR bits. Would I really need more than 400-some WHP on a daily driver, such that I'd be getting bored and swapping stuff out? Even that's probably godawfully excessive, but it'll keep me from talking myself into making payments on something like a GT-R some years down the line. I mean seriously...
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:08 PM   #99
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So... the question is: How much does that restriction hurt at this airflow?

Interestingly enough, I remember Phatron arguing that the restriction of stock location was negligible when talking about his Dom4XTR... now he's advocating rotated on a much smaller turbo... Perhaps he just likes arguing for the sake of arguing?
.
My discussion (not arguement) with Buschur and this thread here does not revolve around restriction or flow. It simply revolves around cost and market share.

The point of manufacturing a product is to sell it. By requiring an up/dp and having no upgrade options available severely hinders the market share you can acquire.

If you want to look at it from a cost vs gains (or less restriction) standpoint thats fine too. Most people would agree that rotating a vf turbo and paying for a custom up,dp, and intake are not worth it from a hp gains vs cost standpoint.

The reason i asked "why not just rotate it" in this case, is simply that you're already paying for a custom up/dp.....so rotating said up/dp and simply changing the jig wont change the end cost of the kit UNLESS you already have a stock location intake and turbo inlet....

My "why rotate it" discussion with Buschur was simply why would you use a stock location turbo in a rotated position.....IE why would you use a dom2.5xtr in a rotated position when a gt30 costs less and is a true garrett.
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:34 PM   #100
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Most people would agree that rotating a vf turbo and paying for a custom up,dp, and intake are not worth it from a hp gains vs cost standpoint.
Some customers are two dimensional (HP vs. cost). No EFR turbo is aimed at this kind of customer. Even the big EFRs are commanding some $$$ premium over traditional rotated turbos or Borg's own non-EFR turbos.

EFR is aimed at HP vs. response vs. cost... "three dimensional" customers. There's no comparable turbo series right now. You can find a turbo with comparable response that won't provide the same flow or you can find a turbo with comparable flows that won't provide the responsiveness.

Quote:
My "why rotate it" discussion with Buschur was simply why would you use a stock location turbo in a rotated position.....IE why would you use a dom2.5xtr in a rotated position when a gt30 costs less and is a true garrett.
Because EFR.

That's really what it comes down to.
You either believe EFR construction offers a distinct advantage over traditional turbos or you don't. All evidence I've seen points to that the EFR turbos are in a Response vs. HP space that no other turbo can match, and this is the driver of the sales at higher cost.

It sounds less like you are discussing rotated vs. stock location and more like you're saying "why even bother with a B1 frame turbo kit at all?"

Some people won't pay for response. You have always advocated huge turbine housings and large turbos, but I also remember you talk of the day you went to the autocross and your car was a dog because you couldn't ever really get into the turbo's wheelhouse. Response is worth more to some people than others. A B1 frame turbo-kit is clearly not a kit for the "bigger is better" or 2 dimensional "HP vs. cost" people, it's for people trying to strike a balance of response and HP.

I don't know how big the market is for this group of people, it might be small it might be medium, we both know it won't bee a huge market, no rotated kit will have a huge market. You do have to admit, though, that it's a completely different market from any existing rotated kit, with the possible exception of the KillerB low/front mount GT30 style kit... which this kit should end up in the same ballpark, or potentially even cheaper than that solution. I actually don't know if he ever marketed it, or just made it specifically for his car.

Last edited by Concillian; 08-23-2012 at 03:44 PM.
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