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Old 08-23-2012, 04:08 PM   #101
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I can almost guarantee you the market is small as it is with every other high end product.

People like cheap ****. ebay intercoolers, ebay headers, ebay intake manifolds....

Just take a look at some of the high end group buys....maxwell power....5 month long group buy....10 sets of pistons/rods sold.

Titanium exhaust group buys get 4-5 buyers..

Garage Tuning TS Turbo Kit...only $3500....got 0 buyers

Moore Performance just started a TS group buy right now...lets see how that goes. Based on past performance of TS offerings it wont sell much. You can tell people all you want about the response differences and show em pretty plots, but it just doesnt seem like something most people want to drop coin on.

For all these higher end products a crapload of people will talk them up and get excited about them, but in the end very few will actually pull out their wallet. In the end it sucks all around....if more people would buy them, the prices would come down.
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Last edited by Phatron; 08-23-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #102
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wow.....i thought my little vf39 was pretty amazing lol
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Old 08-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #103
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I agree Phatron, we see that all to often.

For me, this kit seems like it will come right at the price for a rotated single scroll w/ EL header using a gtx3076 on a Tial housing.

If you want to break it down, the kit minus turbo is $2000 shipped, turbo is $1400, Tial housing is $400. Total being $3800 let's say for even numbers sake. Now this new BW turbo will probably be really close to $1750 itself, factor in the $1300 for piping. Add in the cost for header of choice and you are over my previous build (considering you go with a nicer header like Killer B/Perrin/Invidia/Tomei for example). Question then becomes, is the EFR worth it now?

To me then, my "all in one" package is a no brainer seeing as I can get more "bang for my buck".

Last edited by draco159; 08-23-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 05:05 PM   #104
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It's almost like different parts combinations have different appeal to different people who use them for different purposes.
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Old 08-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #105
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Paul's stock location is one way Full-Race offers to package the EFR's. We can do rotated singlescroll or rotated twinscroll also. Here is
CamTuning's test of a rotated prototype T25 7163 for us (no cat, 3" exhaust, FMIC - tested at 7k feet altitude in alb, NM).

Red line is EFR 7163
Blue line is GT3076R .63 a/r rotated


Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I think this turbo looks great. Probably better than any other stock location turbo in terms of spool vs. power... I guess it all comes down to how much you value spool and how much top end you want. I honestly really want this powerband. I just think it would make more sense to go rotated and leave my options open. Would this turbo fit into a Full Race rotated setup and allow for easy upgrade in the future?
this turbo will work perfectly in a rotated setup, look at cam tunings results above for a higher power version than paul's car. When our customers send in dyno charts and videos the results are unlike what we typically see in the 14 years ive been doing this... like you said they aren't for everyone but I believe there is a lot of bang for the buck with the bov, wg, stainless housing, etc

two fun vids for today:
supra vid (listen to the spool between gearshifts) :
rt ernies vid:
(again, pay attention to the sound of turbo recovery between gear changes, albeit a short vid)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PROcede View Post
+1 this turbo i've decided for my car.
+2 this turbo ive decided on for at least one of my projects


Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Any chance you can comment on the boost transition, recovery time? Not the boost threshold that you can see in a plot, but what it feels like on the road in 2nd gear at 3500 when you go WOT. Can you really tell the difference between the lighter weight titanium exhaust wheel in drive-ability?
re boost transition and boost recovery time - you can not get the same effect from just looking at the boost threshold on a dyno plot. When you're driving the car, that tip-in response makes a HUGE difference. this is difficult to convey through a discussion forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
To Geoff: I tried calling you a few times, but you are obviously busy. I should (finally) have a 13 STI on order, and I want to know when I can actually physically have one of these complete kits in my hands. Also, is there any way one can have your "1.5" scroll header, and then the appropriate UP to work with the SS B1 frame EFRs? One last question for you: -if we have to wait a while for the 7163 to come out, what are your thoughts on the 6758? I know Perrin did the one test, but the results seem skewed due to a possible TGV issue. Is the 6758 (all things being equal) a turbo that will have a few hundred rpm better boost threshold, but 30 whp or so less potential? I am thinking of the following for a 2013 STI:
-stock or possibly aftermarket TMIC
-94 octane E10
-your 1.5 scroll system if available
-3inch TBE, with possibly a 3.5" HFC, vs a 3" unit
-TGV delete
-some sort of intake and inlet pipe
hello ben, good to hear from you again - it's been a while! Sorry i've been unavailable, we recently got a contract from Ford building some Ecoboosts for SEMA and it's kept me very busy until Nov 1st

-i love the 6758, and think its an outstanding turbo, especially for stock location setups. For a 2.5L EJ the 6758 is slightly better suited than the 6258 (that is magical on a 2.0L) and the 58mm turbine definitely spools faster and has quicker response than the 7163 due to reduced inertia. I am not familiar with perrin's TGV issue, but for a 94octane pump gas setup I think both turbos could work well

-we did not intend to offer the 1.5scroll with the EFR, but if there is enough interest we will consider it

-i agree with your decision to use a 3.5" hfc, i did some testing last spring, ended up making 700whp thru the 3.5" cat:
at a lower power level backpressure should be perfectly manageable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
If this turbo already requires a custom up pipe....then why not just rotate it and get rid of having to deal with the tight fitment under the intake mani?
we offer rotated options also, singlescroll or twinscroll. This is meant for people who want the turbo in stock location and a LOT of daily driven street cars owners have requested this to us. The rotated up pipe/downpipe combos are available also


Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Oh, also, do the B1 frame EFRs (or the 7163 anyway) still have the spot to put a speed sensor in? It doesn't look like the existing B1 size housings do, but then, that's looking at pictures on a web site... for that matter, is the 7163 still using the small frame housing?
yes, all EFR turbos have the integrated speed sensor mount. It is on the B1 turbos also, just a slightly different spot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by todeswalzer View Post
8 gauge 316H stainless steel ain't cheap. Neither is a robotic tig welding setup The end product is far superior to almost everything else out there. The amount of crazy high HP/race builds using their components in high stress situations speaks to their quality. While i agree the price is steep you get what you pay for. For a down pipe the materials might be a little bit past what's necessary but you pay to play. For manifolds FR really can't be beat. The up and down are made to the same levels of quality with the same parts, which is then reflected in price. However I will agree that the materials are far beyond what's necessary for an up and downpipe but you can be pretty well assured to never have an issue
we strive to produce durable parts with remarkable performance. our pricing is based on material used and labor hours, so you are free to buy just the turbo and build your own piping, or just the manifold and make a DIY downpipe. Our kits will save a lot of time, frustration and cursing


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Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
I do agree that the Injector Dynamics injectors are excellent. We stock them as well as DW and recommend both enthusiastically.
^^^ +1!

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Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
I'm a huge rotated turbo guy. Anyone who calls the shop and asks for a 50+lb/min turbo setup is advised to go rotated. I believe that most big bolt-on turbos are inherently compromised by being shoehorned in to stock location. The hodgepodge of turbine and compressor housings used to fit oversized CHRA's in to stock location take proven comp and turbine wheels out of their native housings and I feel this compromised performance. The inlet side of the compressor is also somewhat restricted by sitting behind the TGV housing which forces a severely kinked bend at the mouth of the turbo.

Having said all that, the Full-Race EFR7163 stock location kit is different. The turbo is configured as Borg-Warner intended. The form factor is such that it fits in stock location without my kind of funky fitment. Most of all the turbo itself offers a hitherto unseen combination of peak flow and response with a powerband that is simply sick. The fact that it fits in stock location is icing on the cake as it allows drop-in fitment to all existing parts or parts intended for the stock turbo (inlets, intakes intercoolers etc...) It makes the total install a completely bolt-on affair without having to source silicone elbows or weld up adapters pipes. Not a big deal for me at the shop since we have all that stuff in stock plus the fab tools to make proper use of them, but for a guys doing it all at home simpler is better.
agreed, the average enthusiast can install this in a driveway.. then go rape 99% of rotated kits


Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Personally, I have a DD - I don't want a big frontmount with a cut bumper beam for safety reasons especially driving people around - I think a TMIC, for all its compromises, is probably perfectly workable for my goals, especially paired with water/meth. I don't want a huge, obviously aftermarket, turbo hanging to the side for all the world to see and giving emissions people or any cop an itch and excuse to ticket me, I want something I can call stock with a straight face. Even when/if I get around to a built motor, I would really prefer a stock location turbo even if it does compromise performance a little bit. And if this is using the BW turbo housing that this thing is engineered for instead of something else that a shop is cramming the hotside of the turbo into (nothing against Blouch or FP, but you cannot deny they don't have the resources of BW) then I don't think there's going to be that much compromise.... and I say this with no disrespect to Full Race, but I've got the fabrication ability and equipment to do my own up and downpipe - maybe not as pretty, but well enough to last. So the 7163 sounds pretty close to ideal to me when/if I get to that point in the mod bug.
I feel the same way, at age 31 I build cars very differently than i did when i was 18-22 years old

Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
I say this with no disrespect to Full Race, but I've got the fabrication ability and equipment to do my own up and downpipe - maybe not as pretty, but well enough to last. So the 7163 sounds pretty close to ideal to me when/if I get to that point in the mod bug.
no disrespect taken, great to hear you have fab skills and can make the setup yourself, we are happy to help however we can. I can tell you its a little more difficult to build this than meets the eye tho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I really hope calling this turbo "stock Location" dies out. Stock location refers to being able to bolt the turbo to the stock up/down pipe flanges....IE the turbo can drop in without an up/down pipe. I think changing the flanges will increase sales substiantially...by necessitating the up/down pipe....you are going to lose 90% of the market that already has a tbe and header/up. If someone is already to that point, then spending $1500 on a turbo to lose some powerband is going to win vice spending $3500 on this.
whatever.. symantics. this is stock location on the cold side, the TMIC or FMIC piping and turbo intake tube are plug and play. the EFR turbos will never have subaru flanges on them, it is simply too long, it just physically can not fit (i tried). Like ive said, this is not for everyone


Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Purely hypothetically though, the turbine housing casting that ATP has enough meat to take a 35R wheel, which has a 68mm OD... so if you started from one of the smaller ones or a raw casting, why wouldn't you be able to machine it for an EFR profile wheel?
not possible, EFR is too long. part of the reason for this length is the ultra efficient WG design and the broad bearing span- high grade bearings like this are not small

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
The EFR turbos are LONG between the ends of the turbine and compressor wheels. It's not that they're too big around in diameter it's that the distance between compressor inlet and turbine outlet is much longer than other popular designs, so the flanges cannot physically line up... to get the EFR-like powerband, I think you're gonna have to pay for up / down in a "stock-ish location" kit or go full rotated
correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Now a B1 frame turbo kit isn't going to fit anything else, the housings add additional length and there's no way anything else is going to bolt up. There's no "it fits more turbos" advantage from rotating here. No matter what, any kit for the B1 frame EFRs is going to ONLY fit the B1 EFRs. Given that... there is only one trade off between rotating and "stock-ish location"... whether the penalties to rotate are worth any potential advatage in freeing restriction.

So... the question is: How much does that restriction hurt at this airflow?
fyi these B1 turbos are all 2.5" inlet... 3" is plenty big and flows a lot more than you may realize. many people get caught up on the forums thinking you need a giant 4" intake tube, when 3" or 3.5" at the biggest is typically plenty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Competitive autocrossers would want a B1 frame EFR (probably even smaller than the 7163) if it can improve response over an ~18G-XT sized turbo you see a lot of autocross builds having, but with similar top end (or improve top end for similar response). From all accounts of EFR I've seen, not just here or on Subaru boards, but all accounts, EFR seems to be legit, and a bigger improvement than "billet" ever was. People will pay for that.
EFR 6258 for a stock 2L and EFR 6758 for a stock 2.5L is the "EJ auto-x recipe" imo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
I remember Phatron arguing that the restriction of stock location was negligible when talking about his Dom4XTR... now he's advocating rotated on a much smaller turbo... Perhaps he just likes arguing for the sake of arguing?

Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 08-23-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 06:50 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
There's no comparable turbo series right now. You can find a turbo with comparable response that won't provide the same flow or you can find a turbo with comparable flows that won't provide the responsiveness...That's really what it comes down to.

You either believe EFR construction offers a distinct advantage over traditional turbos or you don't. All evidence I've seen points to that the EFR turbos are in a Response vs. HP space that no other turbo can match
great post
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:17 PM   #107
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Loving the feedback Geoff! So you can run this turbo single scroll rotated?? I do believe I'm liking this turbo more and more then. How would you compare this to Pphilthy's turbo, the fmw?
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:32 PM   #108
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Have been waiting patiently for these turbos to release and Geoff and I have discussed how this will change the entire outlook on the turbo industry. Excited to say the least..
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:50 PM   #109
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is there any updated release date info?
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:37 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
is there any updated release date info?
Small frame turbos in about 4 weeks and larger frame should be in by October.

Correct me if I'm wrong Geoff
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:24 PM   #111
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^^^ that is correct per my latest understanding
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:39 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draco159 View Post
Loving the feedback Geoff! So you can run this turbo single scroll rotated?? I do believe I'm liking this turbo more and more then. How would you compare this to Pphilthy's turbo, the fmw?
the fmw is a much larger turbo, and has a larger turbo powerband. It is also forwards and backwards compatible with all twinscroll T4 turbos whether BW, EFR, garrett or other.

the B1 EFR is more of a linear powerband that starts much earlier, and of course has the ability to be sleeper in the stock "position"

edit: cam tuning tuned a sand car with subaru motor and EFR 6258 recently, ill ask him to post the video and dyno chart, it was a crazy ride

Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 08-23-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:22 PM   #113
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I was kind of thinking in terms of trying to cram an S256 into a stock location Subaru housing for grins, which is why that applied to the idea of doing that to the EFR but... well. Pointless intellectual exercise because if this isn't perfect for what I want I don't know what is. And I figure that the plumbing is probably harder than I'd think, but what's the fun otherwise?

It actually is interesting how taste in this stuff changes (I'm 30 for what it's worth) I've spent the last 10 years building non-turbo rotaries for roadracing, and almost had a peripheral port 13B for a daily driver... which would have been just a terrible thing; noisy, no fuel economy, bucking spitting and belching flames... but it seemed like a good idea at the time! The Subaru's much more practical.

Last edited by mekilljoydammit; 08-23-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:28 PM   #114
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^ a bov will get the flames back
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:30 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
EFR 6758 for a stock 2.5L is the "EJ auto-x recipe" imo
This is what I was waiting for. I'm looking for an alternative to my Blouch 2.5R and EWG - kinda loud for autox. I'm looking to a built motor next spring and was looking at turbo alternatives and something with an EWG and BOV built in is perfect.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:32 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff

the fmw is a much larger turbo, and has a larger turbo powerband. It is also forwards and backwards compatible with all twinscroll T4 turbos whether BW, EFR, garrett or other.

the B1 EFR is more of a linear powerband that starts much earlier, and of course has the ability to be sleeper in the stock "position"

edit: cam tuning tuned a sand car with subaru motor and EFR 6258 recently, ill ask him to post the video and dyno chart, it was a crazy ride
Oh ok, gotcha. Yeah after I posted I looked at the two and it wasn't even close to apple's to apple's. Would this efr then compare more closely to the 7670? I guess I'm trying to see if it'll be my best bet for 450-490whp with the best spool possible. Anything wrong with choosing a twin scroll housing turbo and putting it on a single scroll uppipe?
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:50 PM   #117
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Quote:
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^ a bov will get the flames back
Antilag would too. It'll never be as loud as a naturally aspirated rotary though. Or as non-emissions-compliant.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:48 AM   #118
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I am leaning to switching to something like this. My gtx35 and 35mph speed limits in my town make it a suckfest for daily driving. I miss power below 5k
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:36 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I am leaning to switching to something like this. My gtx35 and 35mph speed limits in my town make it a suckfest for daily driving. I miss power below 5k
Post up a dyno plot.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:29 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
edit: cam tuning tuned a sand car with subaru motor and EFR 6258 recently, ill ask him to post the video and dyno chart, it was a crazy ride
This is the plot I wanna see.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:33 PM   #121
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I seen a YouTube video with an efr turbo on a sand car and that turbo was super loud but that car was moving.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:42 PM   #122
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I think he posted it in the Bw thread. I don't think there is a dyno plot I think he sand tuned it
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:47 PM   #123
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Paul,

Can u throw up some comparo plots vs vf, 20g, dom2.5 all on e85?

Thanks
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:49 PM   #124
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Just playing devil's advocate but isn't it possible that the greatest variable for the EFR performance is the wheel combination more than the other features and that when compared to similarly sized Garret combinations the performance is very close?
It seems like the GTX 3576 performs similarly on the dyno (I understand that this may not reveal response blah blah) to the 7670. And the closest competitor to the efr 7163 would be a GTX3071 .63 with the 7163 having a slight edge on spool due to the smaller flange? Killerb recently tested the .63 GTX3071 and the curve looks similar except peak power is down but this was on a mustang dyno.

Still the EFR has interesting features that make it unique. I do think that the EFR have an edge in twinscroll variation over the Garretts no matter the wheel combination as the housing are actually designed for these turbos rather than Garretts that seem to be an afterthought on old housings that have been machined to fit existing turbine wheels.
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #125
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Its more than just wheel combination they're built lighter with different aerodynamics the 7163 has some funky aluminum housing on the bearings and etc. And to top that all the B1's are 2.5 inlets so it's no contest. Compared to the GTX3071. Also look where Killer B mounted their unit its not even practical. That has a lot to do with that GTX performance. Every EFR video I've seen the turbos are spooling faster than any Garrett period.
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