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Old 05-17-2012, 04:37 PM   #1
ManualOverAuto
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Anyone have any experience with fixing these, or dealing with a leak there? Google searches didn't return much if anything.

Thought I had another valve cover gasket leak but it turns out its leaking from the "camshaft cap".
Heres a diagram that my shop gave me.


There was oil all along the underside and back of the VC gasket on the drivers side. That's why I thought it was those leaking again. Funny though, how this leak didn't start until AFTER my VC's were replaced a couple months back.

Pic of the drivers side VC, top of pic is towards the front of car. They said its a very minor leak, but yet you can see all the oil caked under there.


Passenger side is fine and dry.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:19 PM   #2
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The rear cam seals are #11 in your parts diagram. Those would not have been disturbed during a simple VC replacement. To replace them you have to remove rocker arms and #12 (upper cam journal cap).

I'd clean all that oil off and keep an eye on it until you see where the oil is coming from. It could be a VC bolt seal, the breather hose at the top of the cover, the VC gasket.

If you paid a shop to fix it they should stand by their work for at least 90 days - see if they will look at it again. The shop I work at guarantees our work for a year but that's irrelevant in your case.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert Bass
The rear cam seals are #11 in your parts diagram. Those would not have been disturbed during a simple VC replacement. To replace them you have to remove rocker arms and #12 (upper cam journal cap).

I'd clean all that oil off and keep an eye on it until you see where the oil is coming from. It could be a VC bolt seal, the breather hose at the top of the cover, the VC gasket.

If you paid a shop to fix it they should stand by their work for at least 90 days - see if they will look at it again. The shop I work at guarantees our work for a year but that's irrelevant in your case.
Thanks for the reply.

They specifically said that it's leaking from the "camshaft cap". Of course they wouldn't come out and say they messed up my drivers VC gasket and that's where the leak is. So who knows where the leak REALLY is.

It definitely is coming from the backside of the motor, so tracking its exact location is tough........ but yea I'm going to clean up that area tomorrow, so I can see how bad it's leaking, and maybe get better idea where it's coming from.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:46 PM   #4
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Here's where they could have screwed up. Look at all the VC bolts - see if there is black rubber between the washer and the valve cover. Pull the plug wires and see if you see the rubber seal between the VC cover and the spark plug tube. Ask the shop if they replaced the plug tube seals and the 5 bolt seals when they replaced the valve cover gasket.

If its the backside it's either the cam plug ---or--- sometimes head gasket leaks on 2/4 (driver side) can start at the back of the head - but I have never seen a head gasket run down the VC like that so a cam plug leak is more likely if the above stuff is OK.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert Bass
Here's where they could have screwed up. Look at all the VC bolts - see if there is black rubber between the washer and the valve cover. Pull the plug wires and see if you see the rubber seal between the VC cover and the spark plug tube. Ask the shop if they replaced the plug tube seals and the 5 bolt seals when they replaced the valve cover gasket.

If its the backside it's either the cam plug ---or--- sometimes head gasket leaks on 2/4 (driver side) can start at the back of the head - but I have never seen a head gasket run down the VC like that so a cam plug leak is more likely if the above stuff is OK.
Ok I'll check all that too. By "pull plug wires", you mean the plug boots right? I always hate trying to pull those, because I feel like they will just tear off.

They definitely replaced the plug tube seals, because I still have the paperwork, but I'll ask about the bolt seals. If they didn't do the bolt seals, wouldn't all the bolts leak, along with the passenger side?

If its a head gasket..........oh my. I just don't even want to think about it. Angers me with just the thought and possibility.
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:10 AM   #6
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Don't think about that head gasket - that was way out in left field. Yes, pull the plug boots. If one tears it needs replacing. I have never seen one tear. (now it will happen to me tomorrow since I said it).

What I meant to look for is if they left a seal out. I am always catching myself leaving out tube seals and I do these several times a day sometimes. I always catch myself when I put the VC on (you can feel the difference as soon as you set the VC on the head if you do them all the time) so I have never sent a car out of the shop without one, but if you don't work on subies all the time you might forget one.

It could be something as simple as a piece of dirt and grease that got between the VC gasket and the head making it seep. The ideal thing if you aren't used to pinpointing leaks or if you want to verify the source is to clean it all off and then see where it starts to come from.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert Bass
Don't think about that head gasket - that was way out in left field. Yes, pull the plug boots. If one tears it needs replacing. I have never seen one tear. (now it will happen to me tomorrow since I said it).

What I meant to look for is if they left a seal out. I am always catching myself leaving out tube seals and I do these several times a day sometimes. I always catch myself when I put the VC on (you can feel the difference as soon as you set the VC on the head if you do them all the time) so I have never sent a car out of the shop without one, but if you don't work on subies all the time you might forget one.

It could be something as simple as a piece of dirt and grease that got between the VC gasket and the head making it seep. The ideal thing if you aren't used to pinpointing leaks or if you want to verify the source is to clean it all off and then see where it starts to come from.
Awesome I'll give it a good look over tomorrow. I can actually use my iPhone to get really good views that wouldn't be possible by me just laying under the car and looking up. The camera lens at the top of the phone makes it basically a little periscope, by just viewing the screen as I pan around the engine.

In combination of the front camera and a flashlight (no camera flash on front) I think I should be able to get a view of the back of the motor. If I can get pictures that are good enough, I'll put them up.

Thanks again for the quick replies. Especially after midnight!
Edit: nevermind that last part, you probably aren't even in the same time zone, haha
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:56 AM   #8
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Here a pic of the back of the motor, drivers side.


I'll get better ones later, but you can see kinda where it starts. I'm just not at all familiar with the back of the motor.

Last edited by ManualOverAuto; 05-18-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:35 PM   #9
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From this pic can you guys pinpoint the location?

What is that black, rubber circle part on the back? At first it looked like the leak was coming from that. Gravity is telling me different, because the dark wet spot starts above, higher up on the VC gasket. Or atleast, that's what it looks like.

What do you guys think?

If you need more pics let me know and I'll get some, but I thought that one gave a pretty good view of the backside.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:48 PM   #10
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The round black thing is the cam plug. You are right, it does appear to be the VC gasket - right where it rides over the cam journal hump. I am curious as to how that bottom rear VC bolt gasket looks as well. From this angle it looks like it could also be leaking from that bolt seal and blowing up and around the edge of the VC cover.

The reason I say that is the photo from the bottom looked real wet (fresh), and this new photo the oil up around the gasket near the cam plug looks drier with more old dust/dirt.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert Bass
The round black thing is the cam plug. You are right, it does appear to be the VC gasket - right where it rides over the cam journal hump. I am curious as to how that bottom rear VC bolt gasket looks as well. From this angle it looks like it could also be leaking from that bolt seal and blowing up and around the edge of the VC cover.

The reason I say that is the photo from the bottom looked real wet (fresh), and this new photo the oil up around the gasket near the cam plug looks drier with more old dust/dirt.
Yea I noticed the dry/wet difference too. Maybe the leak took a while to drip down, and the vertical part where the leak starts (back of motor picture) dried up, by the time the oil reached the underside.

The VC bolt seal you are talking about. Is that the bolt you can just barely see on the bottom left cam seal picture? I'll check that again, but I'll also get a pic of the VC and the bolts towards the rear just so you can see all those.

So I guess I'll have to call the shop again. I could actually just show them the pics to make it easier. Hopefully they will realize their mistake (if it really is theirs) and cover ATLEAST the labor. I'd happily pay for the gaskets if needed.
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Old 05-19-2012, 10:44 AM   #12
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Here's a better pic of the back.



I tried for a pic of that bolt but it's such an awkward place to maneuver the camera, that I can only get blurry pics that are too close. So I cant really tell if its leaking from their or not.

Really though, even if that bolt seal is leaking too just like the VC gasket, that's still something the shop could have messed up. I'll just have to wait until Monday to show them the pics and see what they think.

So to me, it looks like it's definitely leaking from that drivers VC gasket.

Last edited by ManualOverAuto; 05-19-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManualOverAuto View Post
Yea I noticed the dry/wet difference too. Maybe the leak took a while to drip down, and the vertical part where the leak starts (back of motor picture) dried up, by the time the oil reached the underside.

The VC bolt seal you are talking about. Is that the bolt you can just barely see on the bottom left cam seal picture? I'll check that again, but I'll also get a pic of the VC and the bolts towards the rear just so you can see all those.

So I guess I'll have to call the shop again. I could actually just show them the pics to make it easier. Hopefully they will realize their mistake (if it really is theirs) and cover ATLEAST the labor. I'd happily pay for the gaskets if needed.
No, the oil is always wettest/cleanest at an active leak source. Yes the bolt I am talking of is the one you can barely see. See if you can get a shot from behind the crossmember over the top of the steering gear shaft. That way we can see the bottom side of the cam plug and corner of the VC to be sure.

The gasket set isn't much - Felpro VS50561R is $25 - $30 and will do both sides with plug seals, bolt seals and gaskets. OEM Subaru is sold as separate components and a bit higher.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert Bass

No, the oil is always wettest/cleanest at an active leak source. Yes the bolt I am talking of is the one you can barely see. See if you can get a shot from behind the crossmember over the top of the steering gear shaft. That way we can see the bottom side of the cam plug and corner of the VC to be sure.

The gasket set isn't much - Felpro VS50561R is $25 - $30 and will do both sides with plug seals, bolt seals and gaskets. OEM Subaru is sold as separate components and a bit higher.
Yea man, no luck with that picture. Its just too hard a spot to get into with the camera.

I do have a question I should have asked at the beginning of this thread:
Does the camshaft cap sit on the head, then the valve cover goes on top of that?

If so the cam cap could very well be leaking along with the VC gasket. It's just very hard to tell.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:58 PM   #15
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the camshaft cap covers a large portion of the camshaft. It does in fact sit in between the valve covers and the cylinder head. Since the camshaft cap and head are both aluminum, the only thing to seal oil from leaking between them is fujibond or some kind of sealant. If the sealant went to hell, the resulting leak could appear to be a valve cover leak.
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Wrex--OH
the camshaft cap covers a large portion of the camshaft. It does in fact sit in between the valve covers and the cylinder head. Since the camshaft cap and head are both aluminum, the only thing to seal oil from leaking between them is fujibond or some kind of sealant. If the sealant went to hell, the resulting leak could appear to be a valve cover leak.
Great, so I'm back a square one.

Is there even a way for me/someone determine which of the two are leaking? The shop said the cam cap. Honestly, I don't understand what they could have seen, that I don't, that automatically determines its the cam cap versus the VC.

....so there isn't a cam cap gasket? Who's great idea was that?

Last edited by ManualOverAuto; 05-19-2012 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:43 PM   #17
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Well, if the VC gaskets are new, and properly installed, the only other culprit leaking from that area would be the camshaft cap.
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Wrex--OH
Well, if the VC gaskets are new, and properly installed, the only other culprit leaking from that area would be the camshaft cap.
"Properly installed" are the key words here. It just confuses me because in the 3rd pic, you can see the dark spot starts up on the VC above the cam seal.

If the cam cap is leaking how do they fix it since there is no gasket? Just take it off and re-apply with sealant?

They never gave me a quote, so how much does a job like that usually cost? I'd ask them, but they're closed for the weekend.

Last edited by ManualOverAuto; 05-19-2012 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:27 PM   #19
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I think it's time to bust out the engine degreaser and clean the entire area. this will give a much clearer view of where the leak is.
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Wrex--OH
I think it's time to bust out the engine degreaser and clean the entire area. this will give a much clearer view of where the leak is.
Cleaning that area is going to be a hassle and a half. Limited area to start with, then there's all the wires and hoses to get around.

I'll give it a try though. What's the easiest way to go about cleaning back of the motor? Some kind of tool or brush I could use?
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Old 05-19-2012, 07:03 PM   #21
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A stiff nylon brush and engine degreaser should be all that you need.
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Old 05-19-2012, 07:43 PM   #22
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Looks like I was typing when you were posting photos.

I just don't see wet around the cam plug. That dark spot could have been from the original leak. Oil is no longer flowing there and it has collected dust and road dirt giving it that nasty look without any shine. The camshaft cap is sealed to the head with fujibond. Unless somebody had it off and did a poor job resealing you generally do not see a leak there.

Clean it with a can of spray brake cleaner - brake cleaner evaporates and leaves no residue. Apply liberally along the back and bottom. The can comes with a plastic tube that will help you get the spray where you want it. All you need to do is wash the wet oil off - you don't need to get it to shiny aluminum. Once its good and dry you can drive for a while and see where it starts to seep from. I would suggest lots of right turns :-)

To replace the cam plug you have to remove the rocker arms and the camshaft cap - #12 in the parts drawing. If you look at the last photo you will see a seam top to bottom right above and below the cam plug. To the right of that seam is the cylinder head and to the left is the camshaft cap. The Valve cover actually bolts to the camshaft cap and not the head. There are some 10mm hex head bolts and some 5mm cap head bolts that hold it. Not something you want to try on-car if you're a novice to engine repair.

Just from looking at your photos I am guessing all you have is a botched VC gasket job. I would get that Felpro kit and DIY and be done with it. You're looking at an hour.

Last edited by Elbert Bass; 05-19-2012 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:41 PM   #23
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Ok I'm going to clean that area up tomorrow cause you both recommend doing that. In a few days when I can re-locate the seepage I'll put up some more pics.

Is there anything around that area of my motor I should watch out getting that brake cleaner on? I would assume not to get too much around that cam seal, because I feel like it could seep through. Everything else is the VC, cam cap, and head, with the support directly under it.

Thanks again for all the help.

Edit: .......and okay I see; that seam above and below the cam seal, is where the cam cap meets the head? I saw that seal when I was under and was wondering about that. Why wouldn't there be a gasket? Every other large metal to metal piece seems to have one.

Last edited by ManualOverAuto; 05-19-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Ok I'm going to clean that area up tomorrow cause you both recommend doing that. In a few days when I can re-locate the seepage I'll put up some more pics.

Is there anything around that area of my motor I should watch out getting that brake cleaner on? I would assume not to get too much around that cam seal, because I feel like it could seep through. Everything else is the VC, cam cap, and head, with the support directly under it.

Thanks again for all the help.

Edit: .......and okay I see; that seam above and below the cam seal, is where the cam cap meets the head? I saw that seal when I was under and was wondering about that. Why wouldn't there be a gasket? Every other large metal to metal piece seems to have one.
Don't worry about squat. Brake clean evaporates and doesn't leave a residue. I've been using it almost daily for nearly 35 years and have never had an issue with it seeping. Carb cleaner is the one you have to worry about.

The cam cap is sealed with fujibond. The reason there is no gasket is half of the cam journal is in the head and and the other half is in the cam cap. The cam is sandwiched between the head and the cam cap. If they used a gasket you would never get the right clearance on the cam bearings. That cam plug fills the hole made when they bore the camshaft journals.

Because the cap and plug are sealed with fujibond there is no gasket to deteriorate and because you don't disturb either mating surface unless you pull the cam out of the head it is very rare that you have a leak in those two areas.

Last edited by Elbert Bass; 05-20-2012 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 05-20-2012, 05:45 PM   #25
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This is how it looks after I cleaned it. As you can tell it didn't do much of anything. Just an awkward spot to clean.



You can also see in this pic why this leak is so hard to locate the origin. The dark oil spot extends all the way over to the head from the edge if the VC. It was all dry today so I'll get some more pics and feel around in a day or so. If my hand comes up with fresh oil I know it's still leaking.
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